Aikido 7th-Dan William Gleason demonstrating internal principles

[Cady Goldfield]

A couple of short clips of Bill Gleason teaching aiki. Note his use of Chinese terms ("Yin and Yang," "6 Directions") in teaching internal body method, but what he is doing is "old-style aikido" internal power.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0T1tjAIFvo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i6AVhn0TQ8&feature=youtu.be

[Nathan Scott]

Deleted by poster

[Cady Goldfield]

Reverse engineering aikido?

Deleted by poster

Last edited by Nathan Scott; Today at 00:24. Reason: Not worth the backlash!

No, I wouldn't call it "reverse engineering." More accurate to say, "restoring aikido to Morihei Ueshiba's aiki-driven Aikido."
Using Chinese terms is expeditious because Japanese internal arts evidently have been lacking in a descriptive conceptual and teaching terminology.

[LGatling]

No, I wouldn't call it "reverse engineering." More accurate to say, "restoring aikido to Morihei Ueshiba's aiki-driven Aikido."
Using Chinese terms is expeditious because Japanese internal arts evidently have been lacking in a descriptive conceptual and teaching terminology.


Nathan Scott probably had the right idea about the backlash not being worth it, but I simply don't get it. I see uke in a very off-balanced position, gives his balance up from his first reaching out, and then a couple of Chinese terms to describe simple biomechanics - fetch the stick, son, fetch the stick. Why does explaining that require foreign terminology? Try that with any decent judoka with balance and core strength squared off with you and it will simply fail.

Do people 'understand' this sort of language and actually pursue training in it?

Lance Gatling

[Kendoguy9]

Wok fried aiki? :)

[Cliff Judge]

Nathan Scott probably had the right idea about the backlash not being worth it, but I simply don't get it. I see uke in a very off-balanced position, gives his balance up from his first reaching out, and then a couple of Chinese terms to describe simple biomechanics - fetch the stick, son, fetch the stick. Why does explaining that require foreign terminology? Try that with any decent judoka with balance and core strength squared off with you and it will simply fail.

Do people 'understand' this sort of language and actually pursue training in it?

Lance Gatling

For what it is worth, this is the way we tend to do seminars in the ASU. The uke needs to be stable when the grab or attack happens but should not resist or try to get his balance back. The point is that the teacher is going to do something with different body mechanics than is expected or natural, and the results will feel different. Josh, the uke in the top video, has a habit of nodding furiously when he feels his posture being broken. People will partner up and do what they can based on what they saw, the teacher will walk around and throw everybody to let them feel it, etc. Then we go back to regaular practice and...well, generally we go back to our regular practice but over the years, things stick here and there that you can do at full speed.

That's the way Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei do things....though I don't hear them use Chinese terms. They don't even use the term aiki much honestly. Ikeda Sensei basically says he is adjusting himself very subtly to unbalance his opponent, and Saotome Sensei has some things he talks about such as the fact that there are simple biomechanical things happening, and being careful about what you communicate to uke to fool their senses, and the importance of taking your training seriously. (Just my observation, other students may have picked up different things over the years. )

[LGatling]

For what it is worth, this is the way we tend to do seminars in the ASU. The uke needs to be stable when the grab or attack happens but should not resist or try to get his balance back. The point is that the teacher is going to do something with different body mechanics than is expected or natural, and the results will feel different. Josh, the uke in the top video, has a habit of nodding furiously when he feels his posture being broken. ...

That's the way Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei do things....though I don't hear them use Chinese terms. They don't even use the term aiki much honestly. Ikeda Sensei basically says he is adjusting himself very subtly to unbalance his opponent, and Saotome Sensei has some things he talks about such as the fact that there are simple biomechanical things happening, and being careful about what you communicate to uke to fool their senses, and the importance of taking your training seriously. (Just my observation, other students may have picked up different things over the years. )
That's my point. Uke is not in a _stable_ position from the beginning - he is very much off-balance, in a _static_ but weak position, but not stable (we could disagree on the meaning of 'stable', I'm sure), having given up most of his stability by the odd posture before he even reaches out and down to touch tori, thus offbalancing himself even more - and it goes downhill from there. Tori can nudge him around as he wishes, no ki, yin, or even yang necessary. Simple biomechanics - tori stays in a stable, balanced posture and guides off-balanced uke through his dance. (Fetch the stick, son, fetch the stick.....)

And why would uke not resist or try to get his balance back? Just to continue to prove the attack is not realistic? I get that from the initial contact, no need to belabor the point.

I've practiced aikido with some very accomplished folks, and the best can serve up techniques that are hard to describe, and if they want to use 'ki' I don't argue, but this doesn't seem like such an example.

L Gatling

[Cliff Judge]

That's my point. Uke is not in a _stable_ position from the beginning - he is very much off-balance, in a _static_ but weak position, but not stable (we could disagree on the meaning of 'stable', I'm sure), having given up most of his stability by the odd posture before he even reaches out and down to touch tori, thus offbalancing himself even more - and it goes downhill from there. Tori can nudge him around as he wishes, no ki, yin, or even yang necessary. Simple biomechanics - tori stays in a stable, balanced posture and guides off-balanced uke through his dance. (Fetch the stick, son, fetch the stick.....)

Hmm. Well, generally its a static but strong position, which I would call stable. We do the "hanmi" stance but we'll settle our weight down, keep it in between our feet, weight about 50/50 per foot, and don't reach out very far.

An exception that you will see in something like 80% of all Aikido demo videos is the thing where the teacher gets you up out of seiza and your hands close around his wrist, and he starts executing some technique before you have organized yourself.



And why would uke not resist or try to get his balance back? Just to continue to prove the attack is not realistic? I get that from the initial contact, no need to belabor the point.

Basically because the technique is being slowed down. There is an agreement to work on a particular slice of time that would be fleeting in an application. We are trying to figure out how to get our bodies to work in a different way than we are used to. Tori wants to do things like make sure they aren't tensing the wrong muscles, and uke is going to give them mindful feedback. When people pair up to work on the thing that was just demonstrated there are highly differing degrees of success.

I'm generally of the opinion that Aikido simply does not use "realistic" attacks at all - we use abstract, generalized attacks. I think that is similar in principal to a lot of koryu jujutsu I have seen - though there is a lack of consistent form because there is no basis of kata.

[LGatling]

My point is that assuming hanmi against an opponent, and reaching out any distance at all, is a nothingburger attack. It is pretty much a useless position from which to start anything, much less the attack of another person. It is also a bad position to end after an attack, but that's a different issue.

In judo we spend much of our time trying to get into position to attack uke from just that angle. The unofficial British Judo Association kata (i.e., it is not one of the official Kodokan judo kata) illustrates this time and again - watch as uke attacks the side of tori. There's not much taisabaki in this demo as the point is tori's counter. what you see is uke successfully attacking, then tori countering slowly, then at normal speed. I don't have time to find a better example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Sx294w7macM

hmmm.. embed not working for me.

Anyhow, putting yourself into hanmi then reaching out almost _any_ distance out and down is simply putting yourself into an untenable position. There's a big difference in grip fighting - you reach out shoulder level, not down to grab a wrist.

The kuzushi of many judo throws is to uke's right or right rear - if anyone presents their side and reaches out and down, wham! Thanks, sucker.....

[Cliff Judge]

My point is that assuming hanmi against an opponent, and reaching out any distance at all, is a nothingburger attack. It is pretty much a useless position from which to start anything, much less the attack of another person. It is also a bad position to end after an attack, but that's a different issue.

In judo we spend much of our time trying to get into position to attack uke from just that angle. The unofficial British Judo Association kata (i.e., it is not one of the official Kodokan judo kata) illustrates this time and again - watch as uke attacks the side of tori. There's not much taisabaki in this demo as the point is tori's counter. what you see is uke successfully attacking, then tori countering slowly, then at normal speed. I don't have time to find a better example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Sx294w7macM

hmmm.. embed not working for me.

Anyhow, putting yourself into hanmi then reaching out almost _any_ distance out and down is simply putting yourself into an untenable position. There's a big difference in grip fighting - you reach out shoulder level, not down to grab a wrist.

The kuzushi of many judo throws is to uke's right or right rear - if anyone presents their side and reaches out and down, wham! Thanks, sucker.....

Well hanmi is quite similar to some jodan kamae I have seen in a couple of different schools. Pretty sure Katori Shinto ryu has a jodan with the body turned to the right a bit and the left elbow out. It is also like a lot of school's waka no kamae, an open-hipped, non-aggressive stance.

In Aikido the reason for hanmi as I understand it is that it is a stance for a situation where you have multiple or unknown numbers of attackers, and it is not yet written in stone that there is going to be violence. You should keep your hands down for whatever aid in de-escalation that provides, and in theory you've got an advantage of sight radius due to having one hip open.

Some of us kind of grow out of it…it feels too stiff for me lately, sometimes it really doesn't seem called for.

FWIW the people who are reimagining Aikido as a Chinese martial art are all about hanmi being an Aikikai thing that was not really part of Ueshiba's teachings. In the manual he wrote for the Crown Prince in the late 30's he talked more about standing "with the body open in six directions."

[LGatling]

What manual did Ueshiba sensei write for what prince?

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Lance,

The purpose of the book is not clear at all from the text of the book itself or the title, which is simply 『武道』.

There are two English translations, one by John Stevens (the accuracy of which is open to question) and other by Sonoko Tanaka and Stan Pranin in a book entitled Budo: Commentary on the 1938 Training Manual of Morihei Ueshiba. There are also questionable aspects of the translation, even here. An explanation of the provenance of the book and the reference to Kaya-no-Miya, who was not the Crown Prince, can be found in Stan's introduction, pp. 16-21.

[LGatling]

Dr. Goldsbury,

Thank you. Mentioning one of the scores of princes is very different from writing something for the Crown Prince.

Prince / Imperial Japanese Army Lieutenant General Kaya-no-miya Tsunenori was the head of one of the many cadet branches of the Imperial Family; the only way he could become the Emperor would be if a couple of dozen more senior claimants to the throne all piled into a bus and went over a cliff together - meaning, very unlikely.

His Japanese Wiki pg notes he was one of the tallest members of the family at over 180cm. He was also a sportsman, particularly like horse riding.

Thanks again,

Lance Gatling

[Cliff Judge]

I am not sure why I mistook him for a crown prince, thank you to the scholars for sorting that. I myself am barely qualified to eat my own breakfast in the morning. Wonders of the internet.

As he was preparing a kind of documentation for someone of royal blood before WWII however, would it be right to say that he probably used more "high falootin'" language, sort of an effort to puff it all up and make it sound worthy for someone who was descended from the kami? I am wondering if this is why the Chinese concepts were used.

[P Goldsbury]

I think the best place to start would be to look at Christopher Li's blog http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/ (the discussion occurs in the earlier blogs). There is a careful discussion of a small part of the text, and a comparison of the translations given by John Stevens and Sonoko Tanaka.

The introduction by Stanley Pranin relies on an interview with Kisshomaru Ueshiba published in Aiki News / Aikido Journal. Kisshomaru states that the manual was published as a text at the time when Morihei Ueshiba was teaching Kaya no miya and that a staff officer came to take pictures. It is nowhere mentioned in the manual that it was written specifically for the personal use of Kaya-no-miya, though Stan surmises that it was "fitting that the manual was prepared on his behalf" given Kaya's "royal lineage". Nor can one conclude that Ueshiba used Chinese concepts because it was Kaya-no-miya whom he was teaching.

The main concept under discussion is the roppou (六法) stance, which corresponds with the Chinese concept of six directions and is also found in Noh drama and kabuki. Ueshiba does not explain this clearly and so some of the discussion has to be speculative. Kaya-no-miya became the superintendent of the Toyama military school, where Ueshiba had been teaching from an earlier date. The Budo manual could profitably be compared with the manual used in the Nakano Spy school, where Ueshiba also taught until 1942.

[LGatling]

I think the best place to start would be to look at Christopher Li's blog http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/ (the discussion occurs in the earlier blogs). There is a careful discussion of a small part of the text, and a comparison of the translations given by John Stevens and Sonoko Tanaka.

The introduction by Stanley Pranin relies on an interview with Kisshomaru Ueshiba published in Aiki News / Aikido Journal. Kisshomaru states that the manual was published as a text at the time when Morihei Ueshiba was teaching Kaya no miya and that a staff officer came to take pictures. It is nowhere mentioned in the manual that it was written specifically for the personal use of Kaya-no-miya, though Stan surmises that it was "fitting that the manual was prepared on his behalf" given Kaya's "royal lineage". Nor can one conclude that Ueshiba used Chinese concepts because it was Kaya-no-miya whom he was teaching.

The main concept under discussion is the roppou (六法) stance, which corresponds with the Chinese concept of six directions and is also found in Noh drama and kabuki. Ueshiba does not explain this clearly and so some of the discussion has to be speculative. Kaya-no-miya became the superintendent of the Toyama military school, where Ueshiba had been teaching from an earlier date. The Budo manual could profitably be compared with the manual used in the Nakano Spy school, where Ueshiba also taught until 1942.

Thank you, Dr. Goldsbury.

The text in question can be found at http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/morihei-ueshiba-budo-kamae/ In a very pleasant but detailed way the author cites some problems with Stevens' translation.

This is an interesting document, which could be missing documentary evidence of how Ueshiba and his deshi, including Tomiki Kenji in Manchuria, ended up teaching aikibujutsu across a number of Imperial military facilities. The Imperial Army Toyama School was the site of the Army's physical education instructor school (and the Army band.... today at the park that occupies the heart of the old camp there's a large memorial stone to both), so it is logical that the more bureaucratic Army might request something in writing to provide to the various committees and bureaus involved in establishing policy and hiring unarmed combat instructors. The Toyama School-developed simple sword style derives its name from that camp where the committee developed the style for the Army.

Unfortunately for history, the capitulation of Japan left a lot of time for rear area Japanese military units to dispose of records before the Occupation forces landed; there are tales of days of roaring bonfires across camps like Toyama and the various Nakano camps (Military Police School and the infamous 'School for Spies' that masqueraded as a technical signal school), so the link beyond the book may well be broken forever. The folks that would have made such decisions would have been mid- to high-level military officers, hence in their 30's and older, so probably long gone.

Lance Gatling

[Joseph Svinth]

Lance --

I'm thinking that one might find some of the answers in boxing. The Toyama Military Academy was one of the pioneers of amateur boxing in Japan, and unlike sumo and kendo, boxing matches continued right up to 1945. I mention this because the Army, at that level, viewed boxing as good for teaching the fundamentals of bayonet fighting and kendo as, well, antiquated. That level of documentation probably still exists, if only because Jack Dempsey movies were really popular in Japan in the 1920s, meaning a whole generation of young Japanese fellows dreamed of having one-punch knockout technique, just like Jack in those old Hollywood three-reelers.

[Dan Harden]

FWIW the people who are reimagining Aikido as a Chinese martial art are all about hanmi being an Aikikai thing that was not really part of Ueshiba's teachings. In the manual he wrote for the Crown Prince in the late 30's he talked more about standing "with the body open in six directions."
Wording and effect:
The body open in six directions with the associated reward being enhanced power and stability....is...a direct teaching of Chinese internal arts that shows up in various places in Japan and it is directly attributed to power.
* Wording: Six direction training appears in 1441 from the founder of Shinto coming out of two years of esoteric training at Katori jingo and stating that:
Effect: "Once he mastered the mysteries of Six direction theory and Heaven/earth/man his sword was unstoppable."
*Wording: I have seen a scroll from 1735 with the direct translated wording as exactly that; six direction movement, and...
Effect: "Once a dancer understands sixe direction movement they can wield larger weapons with power and grace while appearing to float. Interestingly Ueshiba, was once watching a Noh performer and jumped up and said 10 dan!!! He gets it!

The model harkens back to Sanskrit passages relating to Acala vidyaraja. For those who do not know, he is the source for Japan's Fudo Myoo. Stated accurately his name is acala (immovable) vidya (esoteric practice) Raja (King). So, he is the king of immovability. Japan's fudo shin derives from Fudo Myoo. The inherent quality of course in budo is not to stand in a shizentai and be a flower pot. The aspects of immovability are played out in motion.
This ties in with other Tibet/Chinese/Japanese training of Heaven/earth/man as a concept of motion in stillness creating stillness in motion which is forever assigned to soft disruptive power (aiki, anyone?)
Shirata Rinjiro (known for esoteric practices) discusses immovability as:
Place the immovable body (movement of a dynamically stable body)
in an invincible position (the aspects of the former give rise to the later over and over)
and release blinding strikes (aspects of the first leads to non-telegraphing strikes)
until the opponent becomes non-resistant (obvious)

You also missed about 30 quotes of Ueshiba where when asked what he was doing? He quotes well known Chinese teachings for internal power development.
But of course...many still think those Japanese arts are so uniquely...er...Japanese.

Lance is correct. Hanmi is a dead posture in more ways than one. It is specifically and vehemently taught against in the koryu you suggest it is in.
Dan

[Cliff Judge]

The body open in six directions with the associated reward being enhanced power and stability....is...a direct teaching of Chinese internal arts that shows up in various places in Japan and it is directly attributed to power.
* Wording: Six direction training appears in 1441 from the founder of Shinto coming out of two years of esoteric training at Katori jingo and stating that:
Effect: "Once he mastered the mysteries of Six direction theory and Heaven/earth/man his sword was unstoppable."
*Wording: I have seen a scroll from 1735 with the direct translated wording as exactly that; six direction movement, and...
Effect: "Once a dancer understands sixe direction movement they can wield larger weapons with power and grace while appearing to float. Interestingly Ueshiba, was once watching a Noh performer and jumped up and said 10 dan!!! He gets it!

Thanks for providing some data, Dan. I am guessing you meant the founder of Shinto ryu not Shinto.

Is the second scroll from a school of Noh or some other form of dance?



Lance is correct. Hanmi is a dead posture in more ways than one. It is specifically and vehemently taught against in the koryu you suggest it is in.
Dan

All I said was that I have seen you Katori guys use a triangular jodan that I would call hanmi. I guess I am not allowed to call that hanmi, though?

[Dan Harden]

1. Shinto (ryu) not Shinto, thanks.
2. Yes, a Noh school offered a now defunct Noh School's scroll for translation.
3. You are not seeing hanmi regardless of what you think you are looking at.

[Cliff Judge]

3. You are not seeing hanmi regardless of what you think you are looking at.

When I am practicing Aikido, the way that I stand in hanmi is the same thing as what i see when I see katori jodan.

[Dan Harden]

When I am practicing Aikido, the way that I stand in hanmi is the same thing as what i see when I see katori jodan.
Just because you say it's so, doesn't make it so.
FWIW, I've taken very experienced people, placed them in a standing posture and every.... single... one of them, said they have never been so stable in their lives. I've done this thousands of times.
What is wrong, how to make it right... no one knew or could do.
And it is old knowledge. The foundation of budo.
Acala vidya
Fudo shin
Esoteric practices to be immovable. What was it that lit the fire, sparked the interest and pilgramages of countless warriors?
It wasn't hanmi. A sure way to be thrown down

[Cliff Judge]

Just because you say it's so, doesn't make it so.

Whatever you say, Dan.



FWIW, I've taken very experienced people, placed them in a standing posture and every.... single... one of them, said they have never been so stable in their lives. I've done this thousands of times.
What is wrong, how to make it right... no one knew or could do.
And it is old knowledge. The foundation of budo.
Acala vidya
Fudo shin
Esoteric practices to be immovable. What was it that lit the fire, sparked the interest and pilgramages of countless warriors?
It wasn't hanmi. A sure way to be thrown down

Fudoshin? That has little to do with power. It's a very useful skill to aspire to though. The ability to not have your mind broken or perturbed.

[Dan Harden]

Whatever you say, Dan.
You presume to much about information that you do not have access to. Just like you claim others do about DR. See how that works? No worries. Have fun trying to copy it.

Fudoshin? That has little to do with power. It's a very useful skill to aspire to though. The ability to not have your mind broken or perturbed.
Like the vast majority in budo, it's okay that you do not know what it and it's rich history and actual skillful power (sans all technique) truly means. The popular view is well known. The real practices associated with the work was always kept more or less closed from the majority in the arts. Doubt that? Have a problem with that idea?
Here is a quote from a teacher you know
"I was told by my teacher to only teach one or two the real art. That's what he did."
Here's hoping for those guys!

I have other ideas on teaching people.
FWIW, These practices have been with us for thousands of years throughout many cultures. Those who know them, converse and understand the practices and models and the associated unusual skills they generate. I have walked into rooms with ICMA masters and conversed. It's also why those who don't know the material are so easily moved around by those who do know have the skills. It also explains the fascination with training them that (most, not all) people feel in training them and why it has been around so long in the arts.

[Cliff Judge]

Yes. Some of us actually have teachers.

[Chris Li]

Yes. Some of us actually have teachers.

Cliff, you really don't know what you're talking about.

I'll step out here, this is exactly the reason why I rarely participate in forums anymore.

Best,

Chris

[P Goldsbury]

Cool it folks, please.

There is too much personal point scoring and sideswiping going on here. Please focus on what is actually stated and not on what the person making the statement is presumed to know or not know. The fact that this is an Internet discussion forum, without the additional cues of face-to-face interaction, means that what you state is equal in importance, or even outweighed in importance, by how you actually state it. I think this is too often forgotten in Internet discussions and is being forgotten here.

[Dan Harden]

Yes. Some of us actually have teachers.
Well last I checked so do the people you are talking to. That's not really a response is it? Stick to the point.
When it comes to Aikido Hanmi. There are specific ways to put hands on someone and change their body both for power and instant mobility.

Fudoshin
I already gave a more expansive explanation so I will leave it at that. The popular view of Fudo shin as a mental attitude is thee prevailing view. Here's the thing. Majority opinion doesn't vet something. Rather it means that instead of a few being wrong, many are wrong.
As an aside, I have had three of the most highly qualified Japanese art teachers in the world, tell me that Japanese katana are the finest forged, best cutting blades in the world. This is not only NOT true, either. It is provably not true by several tests and hundreds of experienced smiths around the world know it. This includes a living national treasure smith from Japan. Yet many books by PHD's and millions of martial artists forward that myth based on wildly uninformed misinformation put out by the west and supported by the Japanese.
Since when do teachers have to be experts in everything? Why can't they simply be wrong about a host of subjects and still be experts in their field?
Martial arts are filled with bright lights, highly innovative, talented and intelligent people, and also second sons and ner-do-wells who really are not the best examples of the arts. How do the alter survive? Compared to their audience, they are the best in the room. Saotome once said "The time was, you could have placed a Katana in the hands of any Japanese office workers and sent them to the states. There they were instant experts."

For that reason when it comes to information gathering, I encourage people to do actual research on topics and get out and about away from select teachers to see other views. Information from multiple sources tends to even the playing and remove or at least reduce prejudicial views. People tend to dismiss or distort evidence contrary to their teachers beliefs and only look for evidence that supports his/her opinions.

[Cady Goldfield]

"6 Directions" before contact.
Turn on spherical force before the opponent touches you. When he does touch you, he's "already gone."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mDzmVxCyWw&x-yt-ts=1421782837&x-yt-cl=84359240