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Dojo Dave
28th May 2014, 13:22
If this is a repeat post I apologise in advance, I havesearched the forums and have not found an exact match.
I am looking for a Dojo either in Japan or abroad teachingMuso Jikiden Eishin-ryu that also still teaches the full sets of Kumi-tachiwaza. According to Wikipedia (I realise they are not always accurate) there are five sets. I have seen a couple ofschools that teach one or two of the sets but not all.
I have been studying Eishin-ryu for about three years, inthe lineage I am part of we only do the 4 solo waza and set of 7 Touhou waza.Currently I am also training in Shinto Musu-ryu (4 years) and started Daito ryuabout 18 months ago. From my other training I am fully aware of how importantsolo form training is for development, but I feel there are a number of aspectssuch as distancing against the opponent, timing ect. that can only be gained bytraining with a partner.
Any links or contact information for Dojos/organizationsstill teaching these sets would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
D.Mcleary

gendzwil
28th May 2014, 16:26
If you want to learn distance and timing against a partner, how about you take up kendo?

Dojo Dave
29th May 2014, 00:49
If you want to learn distance and timing against a partner, how about you take up kendo?

The other arts I am learning have distance and timing against a parntner. However if you start playing with the timings and distances from other styles to try and fix what you are doing you end up going like Bujinkahn and loose the essence of the ryu and intended meaning of the waza.

I have not interest in learning Kendo. I repesct it as a sport and it would be great for reflex training however it is just that, a sport and not a combat art. There are a lot of differnces between Kenjutsu and Kendo, my Sensei says in Kendo and similar sprts you can ge away with things that in reality would get you dead. However I am not trying to have a dig a Kendo, Kendoka are very good at what they do.

David

gendzwil
29th May 2014, 16:30
There is definitely a sports side to kendo, but it is also budo. Many people successfully mix koryu practice and kendo. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but to dismiss it as "just sports" shows misunderstanding on your part.

Is Kim still lurking around here? He has spoken to this issue before.

Dojo Dave
30th May 2014, 01:52
My intention is not to insult or offend the Kendoka outthere, I have my opinion of Kendo and have no intention or desire to change itor take it up. I look at kendo like I do at Boxing in regards to empty handwork, Boxers know how to take a hit and throw a hit they are awesome at whatthey do. My opinion is that if you can handle yourself against a decent Boxerthan you are set for most other styles. However no matter how tough you are orhard you train it is again “sports focused” with rules on where you can and can’thit ect. I will leave it at that.
Eishin-ryu is what I have been training and I want to keepit up. Trying to make stuff up or make it up or fix it using SMR or Daito-ryutheory isn’t what I want to do. I know there are Eishin-ryu Dojos out therestill teaching part of the Kumi-tachi sets, I am interested in finding one thatstill has the whole curriculum (Tachi and Kodachi).
Dave

dewey
30th May 2014, 17:50
I have been studying Eishin-ryu for about three years, inthe lineage I am part of we only do the 4 solo waza and set of 7 Touhou waza.

Curious, what MJER lineage do you belong to and/or have studied? I'm also confused as to what 4 solo waza you are referring to....please name them. Also, please identify the 7 "touhou" waza that you are referring to. I am of the Seitokai lineage. As such, we also participate in the ZNIR which only have 5 Toho waza...not 7.

Within MJER Seitokai, Tachi Uchi no Kurai and Tsume Ai no Kurai are most certainly studied. However, study of the other kumitachi are nothing but rumors (the dark and mysterious realm of kyudans & judans).

Rennis
30th May 2014, 23:26
I'm also confused as to what 4 solo waza you are referring to....please name them. Also, please identify the 7 "touhou" waza that you are referring to. I am of the Seitokai lineage. As such, we also participate in the ZNIR which only have 5 Toho waza...not 7.


While I am not the original poster, I would suspect he meant the 4 sets of solo waza and not just four waza. 7 Toho waza makes me think of the DNIR which broke off from the ZNIR and then added a couple new kata to the pre-existing 5 Toho of the ZNIR, but I could be wrong there.

As for groups who know and do ALL the kata in the MJER/MSR mokuroku, even here in Japan there probably are less than a handful that know all of what survives and getting to the point of being able to learn them all would take most likely take decades of commitment here in Japan. There are some people floating around who might have more first hand info and I will leave it to them to comment if they feel so inclined.

Dojo Dave
31st May 2014, 10:47
My appoligies forgive my typing (or lack there of). That is correct we only train the 4 sets of solo waza. The touhou set we have contains the following waza;
1. Maegiri
2.Zengogiri
3.Karatake
4.Kiriage
5.Shihougiri
6.Kissakigaeshi
7.Karigane

I belong to the Seishinkan group headed by Glen Stockwell in Tokyo, we follow the teachings of the late Yasuyoshi Kimura Sensei. I have found the website of a group in Osaka called Senshinkai who also appear to be of the same lineage (Kimura Sensei) they have the first set of paired waza list on their website. It appears you are correct Rennis, it seems we are affiliated with the DNIR. I am studying MJER for the long haul so with the right group waiting for the appropriate time to learn the Kumi-Tachi is more than ok.

Dave

dewey
31st May 2014, 15:49
Dave,

I'd have to second what Rennis said: you'd most certainly have to relocate to Japan if you wished to seriously study the kumitachi kata beyond TUNK & TANK. Thus, if you're serious about this, then you need to begin researching hanshi in Japan and then go about inquiring how to apply. This might involve leaving Seishinkan and joining another MJER "faction." Be careful, though: budo politics are brutal & unforgiving!!!!

Otherwise: have you considered finding a like-minded training partner to train the solo waza as 2-man drills? As in uchidachi & shidachi? I do this with my students and it helps them immensely in regards to learning distance, timing & target placement.

Aden
3rd June 2014, 03:10
Hi Dave

Have you first talked things through with your current iai instructor - different schools have different approaches, it may just be something they dont normally discuss with juniors or list them in published curriculum if they are only available in some branches.

However, assuming you have done so there are other MJER lines in Sydney (none I can think of in Canberra) that demonstrate kumitachi in public embu so presumably teach them (the Kome Juku line of MJER is one) if you feel that is crucial to you for the long term for your swordsmanship.

Aden

Guy Buyens
7th June 2014, 09:03
I haven’t posted here for a while but this question got my attention.
If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself the question: what is most important for me at this stage: develop my skill set or master the complete curriculum of Eishin-ryu

If you are really interested in your own development than, there is nothing wrong in considering additional ways to enhance your skill set. Kendo would be one way but I know your opinion on that. Another would be to do kenjutsu with people that are really devoted to that.
I did the latter, I intensified my practise of kenjutsu enormously the last couple of years and decided to join a study group of Ono Ha Itto-ryu here in Europe. I also train at least twice a year directly with Sasamori soke.
Having said that, if I would be younger, I would do kendo in parallel, not for the reality aspect but for the enormous other benefits (timing, physical fitness,…).
Speaking of reality, some people don’t consider iai-jutsu as “reality” and have problems with the cultivation of historical incorrect martial aspects, over-emphasised in current iaido practice. For instance a duel, certainly starting from seiza (the seiza position is used in a room and the longer sword was not carried in the house) was not done in iai-style and also the act of “shiburi” (removal of the blood) is considered unpractical since only a cloth is considered efficacious for that purpose.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not judging. I do believe that a combination of Iai-do with either Kendo or Kenjutsu (other than the kumidachi sets in your school) can be beneficial. A good friend of mine (6th dan Eishin-ryu) has been doing kendo for many years for that reason and also joined me in getting into OHIR.
Enhancing skills is not the same as mixing techniques. Both my friend and myself are continuing what we did in parallel and don’t mix waza. We did gain a better insight in timing, appraisal and other skills that I would consider transferable.