PDA

View Full Version : Shotokan Karate: What Happened?



bartfast
6th August 2014, 18:31
I just wrote an article (http://waxingonoff.blogspot.com/2014/08/shotokan-karate-what-happened-funakoshi.html)examining the differences between Funakoshi's art, and the art that would later be attributed to him forever.

http://waxingonoff.blogspot.com/2014/08/shotokan-karate-what-happened-funakoshi.html

LGatling
7th August 2014, 07:13
Nice article, thanks.
LGatling

lawrencefowler
8th August 2014, 16:35
An interesting article. I would like to have seen a little more depth (quotes, examples comparing stances/techniques).

Like yourself, I am a traditionalist and would prefer to study what is historically passed down rather that what is the flavour of the day. Having said that, one would have to ask, how can you make it better if you leave? Each practitioner is a part of the whole. Although a dojo might not teach the techniques and katas of old, there is nothing stopping you from doing so. Your presence and practice could inspire others to look more deeply into their style.

[As a side note, your article would carry more weight if you could remove the judgments on the style and instructors. Presenting your case will make it self evident what could be described as 'bad' and/or watered down.]

I look forward to reading further drafts of your article.

-Lawrence Fowler

Gibukai
9th August 2014, 06:19
Hello,

I wrote a similar piece for a German karate forum years ago. You can find it here:

http://www.karate-news.de/smfalt/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2045.0

It is based on my research using Japanese primary sources etc.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

len mccoy
10th August 2014, 00:05
Dear Fiorello Sensei,
I like your blog and agree with your point in general but I do think you are slightly overstating your case.
Taikyoku kata are still widely practiced. They are vitally important in Kyokushinkai and among Funakoshi Sensei's students that formed Shotokai they are also practiced.

Tamashiwara I know in one of the Shotokan articles in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine there was a picture of Funakoshi Sensei actually participating in a board break. Wish I could find it. I agree it was never supposed to be center stage of karate but I don't think he meant it as wrong.

Makawara All I can say is a seldom see one in an American dojo of any style, but I do use my improvised one in the back yard all the time.

Respectfully,
Len McCoy

bartfast
3rd September 2014, 02:39
Well, Bones (McCoy)
First off, I'm no Sensei. I am just a student seeking truth, I do not profess to be teaching anyone anything. You can certainly understand that one must make a strong case to make a case at all. I wouldn't go so far as to say Taikyoku are widely practiced. As I mentioned, some people do practice them (myself included in a 'non' Shotokan school). But your example of Kyokushinkai practicing them actually illustrates my point, not contests my point. I think it is disrespectful that a completely different system under a different founder is the only place (granted, among the few places) that preserve those teachings. For my purpose it is unimportant if it was Gichin or his son that actually made the kata, it was Gichin that promoted them and incorporated them in the system. I have never seen Funakoshi break anything, but my stance is not imaginary, it is literally Funakoshi's words that breaking is not Karate. I say he thinks it is 'wrong' because he literally said 'are we not disappointed that such things as the breaking of boards and tiles, or jumping and bouncing around, are recently mistakenly thought to be the essence of karate-do?' My only point is that Funakoshi was disappointed that Karate was becoming popular for the wrong reasons. Breaking is fine, but not the goal. And it is wrong to promote Karate as a means to that end, or to train for the ability to break things. And it did become the goal, people started learning Karate with a 'I want to do that' mentality with no understanding of anything beyond the exhibitions. As for makiwara, if you find an Okinawan-style Dojo without a makiwara, you are not in an Okinawan-style Dojo. There is simply nothing more important to Okinawan Karate. And I celebrate your effort to enhance your personal training by using one though your dojo lacks it. Not everyone is so concerned with their training as to take it upon themselves to go beyond what the Dojo offers.

And to Mr. Fowler, I wish it was the case that 'presenting my case will make it self evident what could be described as 'bad' and/or watered down.' but I cannot place my confidence in that as the very point of the article is that Funakoshi tried exactly that and failed.
Thanks for reading, I appreciate everyone's time and comments.
-Dayne

cxt
4th September 2014, 13:23
IMO....good article...interesting.

I do more of a Goju/Naha flavor and I can see some the same things you mention.

Thank you for posting the link.

Kevin73
7th September 2014, 13:26
Good article. As a side note, Classical Fighting Arts #50, also just published part 1 of a two part article about this same thing as well. they leaned heavily towards his son making certain changes with the art.

Senshido
19th December 2014, 12:53
Hi,
Sorry I am a bit late to this particular thread, but I would like to add some of my views.

Thank you for posting the article, I found it interesting.

here are some of my ramblings on the article and replies:

It was mentioned in a reply that Kyokushin use the Taikyoku kata and it was further remarked that a different founder of a different style uses them, bear in mind that Funakoshi taught Oyama and so those are carried on from Funakoshi's teachings.

The original stances you mention are very similar to those still used in Kyokushin today, the Kyokushin kokutsu dachi is as the picture on the first book... again a Funakoshi legacy.

The hand techniques you mention, (apologies, I don't know all the English terms you mentioned). most are still used in Kyokushin today,
haito, shuto, ryotoken, oyayubiken, nihon nukite, yohon nukite, toho, etc. etc all still very evident in Kyokushin today.

In essence, Kyokushin (excluding the knockdown & tameshiwari) is probably more like the original Shotokan than most Shotokan or Kyokushin practitioners would care to admit

CEB
19th December 2014, 15:27
If I wanted a view into early Shotokan I would be more tempted to look into Wado Ryu minus the Jiu Jitsu curriculum. But that is just me.

Senshido
19th December 2014, 15:36
If I wanted a view into early Shotokan I would be more tempted to look into Wado Ryu minus the Jiu Jitsu curriculum. But that is just me.

I wouldn't argue that point, lots of similarities.

Geoff
20th January 2015, 21:40
I like the article and agree with it generally, but my experience has been that there is a big differnece between the Shotokan one often sees at the local YMCA or rec center and serious Shotokan karate-do. Almost every serious Shotokan practitioner I know hits the makiwara for example, but since there is a strong amateur/club movement among Shotokan teachers (by which I mean that most Shotokan classes outside the hombu and the big regional dojo are part-time affairs taught by sensei who have day jobs) most makiwara are found in the sensei's home dojo and not at the community center, school gyms and other public venues where Shotokan is most often taught. I also think that most traditional Shotokan incorporates throwing, often in the form of dynamic ashi-barai coupled with strikes (but you are correct that official syllabi often lack those things and Funakoshi's "nine throws" aren't part of any grading syllabus that I've seen), but again at the local YMCA one often doesn't see this dynamic aspect of karate.

I've spent years defending Shotokan as a complete martial art. I don't do that anymore - simply because I no longer believe that any art is complete; they all sacrifice something in favor of something else. I do believe, however, that Shotokan is as comprehensive an art as any other given the right instruction and focus. Over the years Shotokan has been panned for its bad bunkai, but what I've found is that the bad bunkai is usually on the video, but not the dojo floor (that's where the good stuff is found), it's been maligned for an emphasis on sport karate, but take a look at the WKF which is dominated by wado-ryu and shito-ryu guys - I'll take Shotokan over that any day, and it's currently in vogue to snub Shotokan for not being "Okinawan" enough. Whatever floats your boat, I guess, but for me I wouldn't trade the years I've sweated it out in Shotokan classes for anything. Dave Hooper recently had a good review of training at the JKA Honbu in Classical Fighting Arts magazine where he described the training as tough and innovative, yet presented within a traditional framework, that, I think, is the essence of good Shotokan.

CEB
20th January 2015, 22:54
Bunkai is terrible in Shotokan because much of the kata mechanics have been stretched out and been rendered mechanically unsound.... but so what. Shotokan doesn't need bunkai.

If you want to punch through "eye vector" and take someone's head off with oi tzuki then Shotokan is good stuff. My brother is Shotokan and he has beat the Hell out of and broken many a makiwara. He is 64 now. I still don't to be hit by him.

Bunkai?..... a few Judo lessons will fix that. :D

Shoto123
25th December 2017, 14:33
Bunkai in Shotokan is all over the place as far as quality and substance goes. Some one mentioned they never recieved bad bunkai in the dojo. I'm going to second that. I've never recieved bad bunkai training. Think it depends a lot on the instructor and the organization.

several things are going on in refrence to Bunkai and Shotokan Karate

I don't know about Funakoshi O-Sensei but it is known that Nakayama Sensei through various print sources struggled with where and when to teach bunkai.
He believed that only when the kyhon waza was mastered that the bunkai was taught. So in print media we see only the basic kyhon in application.

Unfortunatly, Master "XYZ" of McDojo USA broke away JKA, ISKF etc for "whaterver reasons" before learning the actual Bunkai, and now guesses using all the wrong sources... or does the "Monkey see Monkey do" and first monkey got it wrong from the start. (you see that a lot on ythe internet......)

Also Shotokan Bunkai has been subjected Japanese culture. Sensei says "Do Gedan Bari till I tell you to stop" Kyu replies "Ok......" then silence/no explination till the Sensei believes the kyu has internalized the movent to a reflexive prowess. (how long this will take.... is up to the individual) This can cause issues if the Kyu doesn't know why he's doing Gedan Bari over and over and over... In many cases the westerner interpets this way of teaching as basic or believeing the instructor or method is suspect.

Probably the biggest factor is that Shotokan got to big... You got too many people teaching it that have no real qualifications. But that can happen with just about any MA. I've been in a few Non Shotokan karate Dojos where practitioners when they Kumite just kick box, and Kata is just a dance.

Gibukai
25th December 2017, 20:35
Hello,

A simple fact is that G. Funakoshi (1868-1957) did not use the term "bunkai" in his Japanese writings. He certainly used the term "kumite" ...

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

Shoto123
26th December 2017, 19:28
Hello,

A simple fact is that G. Funakoshi (1868-1957) did not use the term "bunkai" in his Japanese writings. He certainly used the term "kumite" ...

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

What you wrote could be true.... but not sure what your point is....? (I do know he used the term "kumite" and it was clear from his writing that "Kumite" meant sparring... which he didn't support.

The thread points to "What happend with Shotokan Karate?" The OP put's forth Shotokan being based in a practical format, with traditional waza has morphed into something "other". Then thread posters went on to highlight the lack of practical applications being taught from the Kata. ... ala Bunkai..

I don't even know if Nakayama Sensei used the term "bunkai", it's not relavent if he did or didn't (just like "if Funakoshi O-Senei used the term )

CEB wote"
Bunkai is terrible in Shotokan because much of the kata mechanics have been stretched out and been rendered mechanically unsound


I disagree

IMO mechanically "kinetics wise" Shotokan is one of the more advanced Karate and practical. It's been commented many times on the internent how difficult it is for other Karate-ka to do Shotokan , but how relativly easy for Shotokan Karate ka to do other Ryu. Power generation... Shotokan is right up there with the best. Recognisable patterns also... highlighting the art as efficient in the prowess department (ala recognizing "Yea, the guy is doing Shotokan when sparring, MMA etc.. Shotokan pretty much takes the cake on this. Kyokushin Karateka are beast when it comes to kumite, but there Kumite is as flawed as much point sparring is because they do not include the head when striking with thier hands. If MMA is the "gold standandard" for a martial arts prowess (many think it is... I do not, yet will ceed its a good indicator) then Shotokan Karate is the only Karate where one could tell what Karate the practioner was competeing in MMA with. Most couldn't tell if GSP was using Kyokushin, or the "Iceman Lydell using Koei Kan, but everyone knew Machida and his brother was using Shotokan... a Kyu with 6 months could tell.

So I throw out the idea of Kata Mechanics being strecthed and flawed, yet I totally conceded Shotokan's Bogus Bunkai. As stated, I haven't been prevy to bad bunkai, but I've seen plenty on the internet! I've whatched vids where high ranking Sensei guessed like amatures at the applications of a particular Kata. Then to my shock... whatched the "Monkey see, Monkey do" kick in and the garbage got passed on as if it was legit.

How did our kata bunkai get so jacked up? IMO that is the question behind "Shotokan Karate what happened?"

How did experience sensei interpet things like the kiba dachi in Tekki Shodan, Nidan or Sandan as a platform to fight from. the stance gives two giant doors to be pushed or pulled through.. and right now there are vids on the internet were high ranking instructors are teaching standing in kiba dachi and adressing an opponent from there 12-oclock! OMG! What the? Huh? Noooooooo. We see goofy things like this all the time and from serious credible Sensei in Shotokan...

How???

Shoto123
26th December 2017, 22:21
To highlight further... "What's happened to Shotokan?" IMO...this is what happened....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXKqjhsooQ

IMHO: Bad bunkai from the jump!
Who in thier right mind would defend in a Kiba dachi like that? Yet... here are two accomplished and experienced Karate-ka propagating bad Bunkai! (which we see in Shotokan Karate way too much) Why? Neither of these guys would ever try to defend from a posistion like this... So why teach it? IMO... This just looks bad all around for Shotokan practitioners, and is one of the reasons why so many in the MMA world think Karate Kata is nothing but waving your hands in the air dancing. Just dabbling in Tekki Shodan, Nidan or Sandan, one comes to understand that these kata are different. The Embusen line IMO...should tell anyone that something is different from other kata. (i.e.thought process wise) Both Funakoshi O-Sensei and Motobu Choki Sensei went on record stating how deep Naihanchi/Tekki Kata were. Motobu Sensei stated "Naihanchi was all the kata one needed."



To the two gents in the vid.

The Naihanchi/Tekki are the Okinawan versions of a kata laid out in shorthand. The Kiba dachi is used for the following: A) strength training... the geri(kicks) that the kata are teaching by standing in kiba dachi it expertly trains the muscles needed. The kiba dachi is also meant as a "transitional stance" (everyone moves through a kiba dachi or a varation of Kiba dachi, like a Sochin or Hangetsu when progressing from one stance to another.. even if its for a split second.) All techniques in the kata are performed right or left foot forward or with the weight shifted forward or backward (never in a kibadachi with the opponent at your 12-Oclock as shown).... Unless the technique is a Katame waza (grappling technique) if so.. then the kiba dachi is used for grappling but again the opponent is to the left or right. Examples: The elbow joint lock & sweep in Tekki Shodan ( or the Elbow Joint lock in Tekki Nidan (same in Sandan also)

The stepping is in Naihanchi/Tekki teaches and enforces Tsugi Ashi!

These two guys need to pay attention to where the actual geri/kicks are in Tekki Kata. By paying attention to the kicks (hopfully they will notice the geri are always done at the center of the embusen line ( i.e. center of the kata) Then they might come to understand what is a zuki, uchi, empi waza (i.e. pugilistic technique ) and what is a katame waza (i.e. grappling technique)

Shotokan practioners have to stop with the "Monkey see, Monkey Do" it looks bad....

Gibukai
27th December 2017, 11:06
Hello,

My words are simply an answer to your statement that you don't know about G. Funakoshi. In the same statement you mention "bunkai", a word G. Funakoshi apparently did not use. Now you state that G. Funakoshi was against "kumite" (as he himself defined the term), which is not true. He introduced it in each of his manuals and even performed it in his Eighties.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

Shoto123
27th December 2017, 15:05
Respectfully.....

I do believe the term your trying to admonish me on is "Juyi Kumite" that's the correct term he used. right? By all account he didn't approve of the free fighting i.e. "juyi kumite" that went on at the various universitiy clubs. is that Correct?

Or have I had that wrong for 30+yrs?

You're the resident expert..... you tell me,

Other than getting 'off topic" our comments have little substance in refrence to the OP's original post. "what went wrong with Shotokan?

Brian Owens
27th December 2017, 21:53
I do believe the term your trying to admonish me on is "Juyi Kumite" that's the correct term he used. right? ...Or have I had that wrong for 30+yrs?
You may have had it wrong for 30+ years: It's "jiyu kumite," not "juyi kumite."

Shoto123
27th December 2017, 22:35
Brain, I probably have it wrong... I don't use the term. The print media I went to clearly had the spelling "juyi"

I'm still trying to figure out why "if" or 'if not" did Funakoshi O-Sensei use the term "kumite or bunkai" has any relevance on this thread.

Playing with word semantics hardly explores what went on with kata applications within Shotokan and how they got to so far away from being effective. (bunkai wise) What is being demonstrated in the VID, No one in thier right mind would square up to and opponent in a kiba dachi like that . Would you? Would Mr Winter? I think not....

& Not to pick on the two in the Vid, their are some serious karate ka in Shotokan on the internet pushing this type of garbage.

We can play semantics with words but that hardly explores the "effectual truths" behind a kata bunkai. (by "effectual truth" I mean the Machiavellian term to define what is the actual truth and not percieved truth... )

I'll understand If guys are stuck on word semantics and pushing your academic historical prowess, if that's what you do here... Rock on... Obviously that's not my thing... and I'll motivate somewhere else..

Brian Owens
28th December 2017, 01:30
Brain, I probably have it wrong... I don't use the term. The print media I went to clearly had the spelling "juyi"
I assumed from your user name, "Shoto123," that you were expressing some expertise in Shotokan. I guess that's not the case.


I'm still trying to figure out why "if" or 'if not" did Funakoshi O-Sensei use the term "kumite or bunkai" has any relevance on this thread.
It's relevant because if one is stating what Funakoshi's teachings were, but uses terms that he did not use, then one's statements are not credible.

Shoto123
28th December 2017, 02:00
Straight up weak sauce!

Is that how you practice your Karate? Playing semantics and rolling with assumptions?

Who's stating what Funakoshi's teaching were? Me? Bunkai is Bunkai... a waza is effectve or it isn't. So am I reading all this correct... You don't and Mr Academia don't like me pointing to bad Shotokan bunkai, so you Troll with the "I don't know Funakoshi ? WOW!

Stay clear of my dojo boyz.. that weak sauce doesn't go with anything I serve!

feel free to ban me... Please! Cause right now all in with not letting you two paper tigers getting the last word in.

Brian Owens
28th December 2017, 03:34
Is that how you practice your Karate? Playing semantics and rolling with assumptions?
Actually it seems to be you who is "rolling with assumptions." You asked what difference it made if Funakoshi did or did not use certain terms, and I answered your question. I did not say that you had claimed he had used any particular term. Furthermore, this is not "semantics" for semantics' sake; this a matter of fact versus fiction. You may not value accuracy of language and historicity, but this is the "Traditional Karate" forum, and verifiable connections to a legitimate lineage are important.

As for your challenge to "feel free to ban me... Please!" let me caution you that I, as a moderator, may accept that challenge. If you wish to continue as a member of this community you need to follow the rules and keep your discourse civil.

len mccoy
28th December 2017, 14:30
Hi shoto123,
This is a great forum board. Don't get yourself banned.Take a look at Mr. Wittmer's blog. He does a lot of research. There is a lot all of us can learn from him. There are a number of others here with vast amounts of knowledge. Calm down a little. If you have direct experience that contradicts the experts please express it. We will all be the better for it. I know what went on where I trained at different times and will share my disagreements with anyone, but just do it nicely. We don't need less members.
Len MCCoy

Gibukai
28th December 2017, 19:04
Hello,

In order to know what went wrong with Shōtōkan, it would be good to know, what G. Funakoshi – the very first director of the Shōtōkan – practised and preached. At least I think this would be a good idea.

So, he did not use the term “bunkai” (this term was used by recent, mostly Western persons). He taught that “kumite” is a necessary element of his karate. In the final edition of his “Karate-dō Kyōhan” he included “free kumite” (so, he did not ban it).

There are two main points which he highlighted. First, he wrote that his karate has nothing to do with tournament contests. Second, he wrote that his karate has nothing to do with commercialism. I write “his karate” because I don't want to generalize. If you want to compare these two points with the modern situation, you are able to make conclusions about what happened to Shōtōkan.

By the way, I don’t consider myself a “resident expert”; I am simply sharing a little information …

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

len mccoy
29th December 2017, 18:16
To a couple of Shoto123's points.
I remember at least once Isao Kise Sensei saying to a mixed Japanese, Okinawan and American class "Tomorrow kata bunkai"> This was 86-87 but I don't know if he used the word bunkai for the American's benefit or was using it for the Japanese speakers.

I know I read an English language artice where it stated that G. Funakoshi left a class abruptly because he did not approve of free sparring, but without being able to find the article again it is hard to tell how authoritative it was.

Lastly I generally agree with Shoto 123's points about kiba dachi and would added that even at a 90 angle it isn't great for fighting. My Kyokushinkai teacher said if someone faced you that way you could easily beat the daylights out of his leg with gedan mawashi geri (round house kicks to the legs like Muay Thai).
Len McCoy

steveM
31st January 2019, 17:37
OMG, learn lot of thing