PDA

View Full Version : Okinawan Dit Da Jow



len mccoy
4th November 2014, 03:50
Hello,
Just curious if anyone knows an Okinawan dit da jow formula appropriate to makiwara training. During my limited time on Okinawa I saw and practiced a lot of makiwara but I never saw anyone using herbal preparations. If anyone knows anything specific like this Goju school likes this herbal dit da jow or Uechi ryu likes a particular formula I would be very interested. Although I found a number of bruise treatments in the Bubishi I didn't see anything list as 'hit wine". An answer like Sensei like a particular commercial brand would be nice, but an actual herbal formula would be even better. Thanks for any help.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

DustyMars
4th November 2014, 11:36
With the seasonal change and arthritis setting in I sure could use some now. We used it in out kajukenbo club at Bergstrom AFB, TX back in the mid-1960's and after then I could not find it again. Some would joke that is was made from soy, opium and crushed up cockroaches :)

Brian Owens
5th November 2014, 00:51
...During my limited time on Okinawa I saw and practiced a lot of makiwara but I never saw anyone using herbal preparations...

I think you answered your own question. I also just asked my brother, who trained briefly under Hohan Soken and Fusei Kisei, and he, too, doesn't recall seeing anything applied before makiwara sessions. He said he does recall Fusei Kisei using a bucket full of rice or buckwheat for spear-hand training, but is pretty sure nothing was added to it.

Kevin73
5th November 2014, 13:33
I know that Morio Higaonna, of Goju Ryu, uses a dit da jow. I also know that both Miyagi and Uechi used Chinese herbs in their training.

I don't know what specifically they use, but I would recommend Dale Dugas for Dit Da Jow. You can buy premade and also as herbal kits.

http://www.daledugasherbs.com/b-dit-da-jow-liniments-b/chan-ning-tong-iron-palm-dit-da-jow-liniment-8-ounce

This is designed for Makiwara training as well. Mr. Dugas is very friendly and would gladly answer questions you have. He is who I order my stuff from and I have been very happy with both service and quality.

DustyMars
5th November 2014, 17:57
I used some stuff on my hands after beating the hell out of a makiwara starting in 1960 and while it is only an opinion I think it is responsible for the health or my knuckles now. My hand are arthritic, can hardly play my guitar now, but knuckles are still okay. Maybe I should have used it on my thumbs :) Not sue who get me into using that stuff, but it was while doing karate on Okinawa.

CEB
14th November 2014, 16:59
I know of a couple of things but it is a dojo by dojo kind of thing. There is not a unviersially accepted across Goju Ryu or any of the major Kai or Kans.

len mccoy
17th November 2014, 23:51
Thank you everyone,
Brian you validated what I knew about Kise Sensei linage, and since Soken Sensei had already passed away in 86-87 when I was on Okinawa it was nice to hear things were similar years before.
Anyone know what specifically Morio Higaonna Sensei uses.?
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

Brian Owens
28th November 2014, 06:10
Greetings Len,

My brother was stationed at Kadena in 1976 & '77 or thereabouts if that helps with your timeline/lineage.

CEB
3rd December 2014, 18:45
FWIW

Some dojo (mostly on the Shuri Te side of the house will use salt water to soften the hands after maki training to prevent nasty narly lookin carpet layer hands.

A gentleman should take care of his hand's appearence. Big external callouses can cause you problem if they tear. You can condition your hands to be more effective while not making your hands appear like a brawler. To many Karate is a gentleman's art.

It is a philosophical arguement. Do you value 'scarry knuckles' or do you believe martial arts training should be a secret when interacting with others outside the dojo in your daily life. Increase bone density and proper mechanics is what you really need. The Makiwara is a great teacher. It's lets know if your mechanics suck.

Cuts to the knuckles happen especially when you get my age and the skin starts the thin.

Johnny Yuma
20th December 2014, 21:07
So this is highly anecdotal; but nevertheless, I have been looking into something similar for over a year now, and was recently validated by direct experience. I was triple art studying; jiujutsu, karate, and sword, and was experiencing quite a few different symptoms of being used as uke, contact sparring, and tobichigai knee/ ankle pain.
I researched “dit da jow (sic.)”, and looked for the ingredients that were used.
I sourced an older book, one the first written about Chinese martial arts in English called: “Kung-Fu, or Daoist Medical Gymnastics”, written by John Dudgeon, published in 1895, IIRC. There are numerous herbal formulas there; to many to name. They are prescribed for everything! From that starting point, I looked elsewhere. The Chinese herbal formulae are mostly VERY complex, with weird-ass ingredients that are hard for me to find; let alone process, stomach, or afford. Not to mention some of the toxic properties some marketed brands of “dit da jow” possess.
Looking around, I went about sourcing classical hoplite applications and came across an interesting nugget in Xenophon’s “Hellenika”. I can look back and find the exact location, but the basis remained sound; that is, using oil as a medium to deliver medicine to affected areas. The Greeks in Xenophon’s account used oil to good affect to stay warm in the cold, and reinvigorate muscular tightness and all around battle weariness.
As this principle as my new base, I then looked into oils. I decided on Grapeseed oil, as it contains all sorts of beneficiary elements; including lubricating sore joints and ligaments; extremely long shelf-life; hypo-allergenic properties, and the oil’s ability to mix. I also looked into Almond oil, Olive oil (among others); but they did not meet the snuff of the Grapeseed.
To make a long story short; I found myself a few weeks ago the only white belt in a room full of black belts; with a few shihan mixed in for good measure. Using my own original formulation (added herbal essential oils – I’ll share, if you please); my gi burns, bruises, and soreness were gone the next day. The stuff was so effective for me, I was literally taken aback. It really does work. Sorry for the long winded response, but I didn’t want to come off as some sort of idiot.

Nick
8th May 2015, 18:16
Would you mind sharing your oil formulation, I just started trying oils myself using a dit da jow oil from eastmeetswest(dot)com and it works well but I like the grapeseed oil base. I make my own alcohol based dit da jow and iron palm liniments but on they can be to drying in the winter months so oil would be perfect, thanks for your time.

Johnny Yuma
11th May 2015, 23:43
Sure, I use a 4 oz. bottle, filling mostly up with grapeseed oil. I use the following formulation of essential oils, I'm not sure the order matters -- base, mid, and top refer to the scent "notes" that you will find with the oils;

Base: Ginger oil (10-12 drops)

Middle: Juniper oil (20-24 drops)

Top: Eucalyptus oil (15-18 drops)

My suggestion is to experiment around with the amount of oils you add to the grapeseed base. My drop formula gets you something like 8-10% essential oils (what I'm aiming for, if anyone can see a mistake in my math, let me know). Just about anything with an alcohol base will not penetrate like oil should; it evaporates at room temperature, and dries you out like you said. Other oils to experiment with along with their scent notes. Hint: If you mix to many of the same notes, the oil ends up smelling funny.

Cinnamon (Base), Nutmeg (Mid), Clove (Base), Peppermint (Top), Oregano (Mid), Chamomile (Mid)...these I've tried; all have worked to some effect, your results may vary. Some are not conducive to exposure to sunlight, so beware when applying them. Some essential oils are also not conducive for use on say...the naughty bits, either (cinnamon comes to mind).

Nick
12th May 2015, 00:20
Thanks for the reply, you supplied some great tips. I am going to order a Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm kit and prepare them in a grapeseed base. When they are ready I will experiment a little with the oils you mentioned. Thanks again for your reply.

Johnny Yuma
12th May 2015, 15:36
No worries, you're very welcome. Do me a flavor and please let me know how things work out for you? Thanks again,

Gil

Nick
10th September 2015, 20:46
I just wanted to let you know how the Dit Da Jow worked out with the grapeseed oil as you suggested. It was a huge success. I purchased a Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm kit from eastmeetswest dot com and told them what I was going to do, what was great was they separated some herbs from the kit otherwise the Jow would be weakened.

I added the herbs in a crockpot then added the grapeseed oil and slow cooked the herbs making sure the temperature never exceeded 110 degrees, I let them slow cook for 24 hours then added that into a Bormioli jar while they were still warm and then I added the herbs that were separated.

I let it sit for 3 weeks shaking daily, after that I took some out and added the Jow in a couple of small glass bottles and using your other tips added cinnamon oil, clove, camphor essential oils in one bottle and the other added peppermint, eucalyptus and pine oil in the other.

I used the same process for the Iron Palm and it worked great also. So all in all these liniment came out great and really do a fantastic job healing me up after tough workouts, thanks again and I appreciate your help.

Johnny Yuma
28th May 2016, 00:05
Sorry it took so long to reply; but it sounds like you did some serious preparation!

I'm glad it worked out for you, keep me posted on your progress, and if you're interested in marketing/ making some liniment for fun and fund.