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Tairin
31st March 2001, 11:45
I wanted to know if someone is able me ' to say difference between :
JUJUTSU and JUJITSU.

Thanks!

Gian Piero Costabile

Meik Skoss
31st March 2001, 20:37
The terms jujutsu and jujitsu both exist in Japanses, but they are NOT equivalent. Jujutsu is the martial art we all know and love, jujitsu is a completely different term that means "completely/fully (and, perhaps, thoroughly)." As far as I can tell, the variant spellings arose from early attempts to write Japanese in European languages, at a time when there were few, if any, conventions about orthography. Try reading English and American books of 150 years ago and you'll see some *weird* differences.

That people continue to use jItsu when writing about martial arts, as opposed to jUtsu, is probably due to both habit and ignorance. This will probably continue until the major English language dictionaries/linguistic authorities take it on themselves to clean up the discrepancies. In the meantime, pouring scorn and opprobrium upon all the people who don't "get" it will probably do nothing to help the situation (satisfying though I find it to be).

Hope this helps to answer your question.

Tairin
31st March 2001, 21:01
I thank you a lot for his kind answer. and I believe that it has really reason on what says.
Thank Sensei Meik Skoss.

Gian Piero Costabile (Italy)

Davemdh
10th April 2001, 04:01
As far as I know Mr. Skoss is bang on with this one, at least thats what the last four generations of sensei at my dojo have been told. It also explains the extra i in JiuJitsu. My hats off to you Mr. Skoss. Almost everywhere I see it written, I see it written wrong. :)

John Bennett
16th April 2001, 06:00
English being the adaptable and wonderful language that it is, there is no "correct" spelling for "jujutsu".

"jujutsu" means a traditional style practised by japonophiles, usually with no sparring, with an emphasis on formality and kata.

"jujitsu" means a westernized version of "jujutsu" with heavy judo influences and even dashes of karate and other MA's thrown in.

"jiu-jitsu" means Brazilian Jiu-jitsu or sometimes a British spelling of jujitsu.

While "jujutsu" may be the most accurate romanization of the Japanese word, the but other spellings are not "wrong", they just mean different things.

In the english language words change both meanings and spellings over time. Many of the words we use today aren't spelled the same way they were 100 years ago and and don't mean the same thing they did 100 years ago because english is a living language.

I think it's wonderful that we now have different words to more accurately describe the different variations of a martial arts style.

The "major English language dictionaries/linguistic authorities" will not "take it on themselves to clean up the discrepancies" because that's not what they do. They don't prescribe the language like the French Academy does, they describe it.

Yamantaka
16th April 2001, 13:38
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Bennett
[B]"jujutsu" means a traditional style practised by japonophiles, usually with no sparring, with an emphasis on formality and kata.
"jujitsu" means a westernized version of "jujutsu" with heavy judo influences and even dashes of karate and other MA's thrown in.
"jiu-jitsu" means Brazilian Jiu-jitsu or sometimes a British spelling of jujitsu.

YAMANTAKA : I see that you are a practitioner of brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Where did you get this idea?
At least in one case (BJJ), the real story is (and I know that, living in Brazil and being a researcher on BJJ and other mA) IT WAS WRONG SPELLING! Mitsuyo Maeda, a practitioner of Judo, taught newaza to the Gracies, which then developed that into BJJ. Maeda didn't speak portuguese and he called judo (as common in that time) KANO JUJUTSU. The Gracies understood jujutsu(pronounced something like DJIU DJITSU) as "JIU-JITSU" and proceed with that misspelling.
JUJITSU wasn't imagined to "distinguish" japanese jujutsu from european jujutsu, it was also a case of misspelling. When you get books and magazines from the beggining of this century, you see many misspellings, such as JIUDO, JYUDO, JUJITSU, KODOKWAN, BUDOKWAI and many others. No big deal.
I'm not discussing if Japanese Jujutsu is mostly "practiced with an emphasis on 'formality'(??) and Kata"; if Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is better or worse; or if European Jujitsu is either.
I wish only to point out a declaration of yours which has no basis on facts. Jiu-Jitsu and Jujitsu are misspellings, not names "created" or intended to designate specific art or sposts forms.
Respectfully
Yamantaka

Robert Carver
16th April 2001, 13:48
Hi Guys,

I have to voice my agreement with John on this one.

While I have NO DOUBT of Mr Skoss' knowledge of the Japanese language, and that "jutsu" is the more correct and current Romanization of the Kanji, the reality is that there is only one "correct" way to write it, and that is in kanji.

While jutsu may be more correct than jitsu, by common usage today, each of the spelling do tend to have a slightly different meaning, although this is certainly flexible. BTW, have you notice that the Danzan Ryu folks tend to use Jiu Jitsu as opposed to the more popular "ju"? :)

Also, the "All Japan Ju-Jitsu Federation" (1-21, 1cho, Minamihancho-Nishi, Sakai-City, Osaka 5900967, Japan - the member organization under the Ju-Jitsu International Federation, http://www.jjifweb.com/) uses jitsu vice jutsu in its name. It is my understanding that they changed their name using "jitsu" just last year. You would think that the Japanese would know how to spell it correctly... :)

While I personally prefer jutsu over jitsu, I am also not going to get my panties in a knot over the whole subject.

Late addition: There is an excellent thread at the Aikido Journal BB on the difficulties of Romanizing the Japanese language at http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000458.html. Although this topic is on "honbu versus hombu", it is quite interesting and highlights the language difficulties.

Yamantaka
16th April 2001, 21:52
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Hi Guys,
I have to voice my agreement with John on this one.
While I have NO DOUBT of Mr Skoss' knowledge of the Japanese language, and that "jutsu" is the more correct and current Romanization of the Kanji, the reality is that there is only one "correct" way to write it, and that is in kanji.

YAMANTAKA : So the problem is a bit more complicated now...You place a different value on the "current romanization of kanji"(at which you admit Mr. Skoss' knowledge) and what you find the "only correct way" to write it, that is, in kanji. That means that no romanization should be used and JJ shouldn't be used in the West.

While jutsu may be more correct than jitsu, by common usage today, each of the spelling do tend to have a slightly different meaning, although this is certainly flexible. BTW, have you notice that the Danzan Ryu folks tend to use Jiu Jitsu as opposed to the more popular "ju"? :)

YAMANTAKA : Ah...But that wasn't what John said before. He said that each version "meant" and was "meant to designate" a specific art. You admit that JUTSU is more correct than JITSU but, by constant use of the misspelling (COMMON USAGE) they seem to have now different meanings. And, by the way, Danzan ryu is a modern hawaiian art and subject to the same errors of BJJ...

Also, the "All Japan Ju-Jitsu Federation" (1-21, 1cho, Minamihancho-Nishi, Sakai-City, Osaka 5900967, Japan - the member organization under the Ju-Jitsu International Federation, http://www.jjifweb.com/) uses jitsu vice jutsu in its name. It is my understanding that they changed their name using "jitsu" just last year. You would think that the Japanese would know how to spell it correctly... :)

YAMANTAKA : Not at all. Japanese are even more prone to confusion than we are. The mere fact that they "changed" their name last year is a testimony of that. Common usage, even by japanese, does not lead to correct usage.

While I personally prefer jutsu over jitsu, I am also not going to get my panties in a knot over the whole subject.

YAMANTAKA : No one is, even those who do not wear panties :)) What I disagree with was John's declaration that the different forms were meant to represent different arts. I pointed out that they were the result of misspelling, even if, by common usage, they are beginning to represent different arts. I sincerely do not believe that BJJ will ever change its name to Brazilian Jujutsu, if for no other reason for the fact that its origin lies in Judo, not in Jujutsu.

Late addition: There is an excellent thread at the Aikido Journal BB on the difficulties of Romanizing the Japanese language at http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000458.html. Although this topic is on "honbu versus hombu", it is quite interesting and highlights the language difficulties.

YAMANTAKA : Exactly my point! I participate in that discussion and it shows that even japanese are subject to doubts and confusions. The point is we have in japanese two kanji, one for JUTSU and the other for JITSU, with very different meanings, with JITSU having nothing to do with martial arts.
A rose by any other name and a Jutsu (even if called Jitsu) both may have value but the use of a romanization (JITSU) remains incorrect, in spite of common usage.
IMHO
Best regards

Kit LeBlanc
16th April 2001, 22:34
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Carver

You would think that the Japanese would know how to spell it correctly... :)



This reminds me of the folks who believe that simply because their teacher is Asian, or has an nth degree, or is highly skilled, that he/she is also by default knowledgable about linguistic/historical matters pertaining to their own culture or that of their martial arts.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because an INCORRECT or MISUNDERSTOOD usage has become common does not make it right. And just because one group or even one teacher uses jitsu instead of jutsu ALSO does not make it correct. (Kung Fu, anyone?)

In fact, often the WORST place to get such information from is martial arts teachers. For the most part they lack cultural (or in this case, cross-cultural), linguistic, historical and academic training, yet have a tendency to teach what they heard from their own teachers as fact.

This has led to a martial arts community here in the States with a parallel yet oddly mish-mashed and romanticized version of "Asian" culture and history that is only partly right.

Hint: when you pick up the next "martial arts history" book in the local bookstore, turn to the bibliography. This reveals a great deal about the potential quality of the content.


Kit

Robert Carver
16th April 2001, 23:23
Thank Yamantaka and Kit for the excellent replies.

However, I am not denying the Jutsu is more correct. The point I am making is this...

When I see Jiu Jitsu, I think, "oh, it's probably Brazillian JJ". They all seem to use it, and it is a generalization. Remember though, we ARE talking Brazillian JJ, not Japanese JJ. Who cares how they spell it, it's their art.

When I see Ju Jitsu, I think, "oh, it is probably a modern or electic type of JJ". Again, a generalization based on my experience. We are talking about a "modern or eclectic" type of jujutsu, not Japanese, and if they choose to spell it that way, who cares?

When I see Jujutsu, I think, "oh, it is probably classical or traditional Japanese jujutsu". This generalization is based on the fact the classical or traditional Jujutsu practitioners are more concerned with being "correct" since their art is Japanese.

So why do I associate these spellings with the various "brands" of jujutsu? Simple, as the Vice President of the United States Ju-Jitsu Federation I have to deal with people from all over the country and the world that spell it differently. I have learned that I should not just "write off" someone because of the spelling of jutsu/jitsu they use. Just because they are not a literary genius does not necessarily make them an idiot or a fake.The art is not defined by how it is spelled, but by a common set of principles.

Kit, your statement that martial arts teachers are often the worse source of information is something I agree with. Gawd knows I have seen and heard some bizarre stuff in my 30 years in the martial arts. As far as the All Japan Ju-Jitsu Federation, I am sure they are just a bunch of idiots and probably don't have an educated person in their whole board of directors, ;) or perhaps they adopted the "Jitsu" to show a difference between classicial/traditional Japanese Jujutsu vice the modern and eclectic style practiced.

BTW, thanks for the hint, but I already look at the bibliography of any book I purchase.

Kit LeBlanc
17th April 2001, 01:22
Originally posted by Robert Carver

[ As far as the All Japan Ju-Jitsu Federation, I am sure they are just a bunch of idiots and probably don't have an educated person in their whole board of directors, ;) or perhaps they adopted the "Jitsu" to show a difference between classicial/traditional Japanese Jujutsu vice the modern and eclectic style practiced.

[/B]

Either way they are wrong, and this is fundamentally wrong, regardless of how good their jj. Considering that we have some pretty hinky jujutsu federations and associations over here, I am willing to bet they have some over there, too. Heck, with Yuki Nakai we have Brazilian jujutsu being taught by a Japanese in Japan, so we don't really know what they are all about.

Actually your point about the kanji was a good one. Problem is, many new styles outside of Asia can't even get those right, or when they do, they look like they were written by a three year old and are barely legible.


Kit

Robert Carver
17th April 2001, 03:51
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Actually your point about the kanji was a good one. Problem is, many new styles outside of Asia can't even get those right, or when they do, they look like they were written by a three year old and are barely legible.

So does that mean I have to put away my crayon set? :(

No argument about whether it is right or wrong. You got me there, but again it is their organization and right or wrong they can name it as they please.

I know my formula of defining the type of jujutsu based on the spelling is very generalized, but you would be amazed how accurate it is. Kinda like the stereotyping that is cast upon certain individuals and groups. Not that it is right, but we all tend to do it to some extent.

What I would hope is that people learn a little from my experience of broad exposure to many different flavors of jujutsu and not just automatically write someone off just because of the spelling used. There are many people out there that have either chosen to spell it jitsu vice jutsu, or they just do not know any better. Either way, as long as it incorporates the principles of jujutsu, then it is jujutsu and they may have something valuable to offer.

Thanks and best always,

Kit LeBlanc
17th April 2001, 06:16
Robert,


Yeah I agree with you actually. I practice BJJ myself. But I also don't accept what the vast majority of BJJ people claim is "jiu jitsu" history, if they even give a darn about it at all. They need to hit the books when they are not on the mat.

Basically I think the only reason they spell it the way they do (I have seen it called " the traditional spelling") is that it was before the commonly accepted Romanization of Japanese terms was devised and this spelling was in common usage, as you seen it in all the old ads for challenge matches and carny shows in the early 1900's. I was looking at one just this weekend; "With Jiu Jitsu you Don't Have to Fear a Gun..." or something like that.

Technically the arts themselves may be really good systems and have a lot to offer. You can only know when you see what they bring to the mat, so to speak.

But I simply do not think there is any excuse for poor scholarship and incorrect history and language use, etc. Basically it is sloppy. Budo is very much about integrity, both in terms of getting the details right and in terms of acknowledging where you came from. Anyone who calls himself a jujutsu teacher should be knowledgable about the true history and usage of the terminology, particularly since there are resources like the Internet and books by academically trained budoka with which to evaluate such things. It doesn't take long to discern which is good information and which is bilge. The problem is, critical faculties need to be exercised.

I do not believe that skill on the mat makes up for this. BOTH aspects should be in place. There are plenty so-called "legitmate" systems that spell "jujutsu" right and don't have funny sounding Japanese names that a Japanese would laugh at, but their skill at waza sucks. They should be embarassed to claim their lineage when they present such a poor example of once proud and proven fighting arts.

Kit Leblanc

Joseph Svinth
17th April 2001, 08:39
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is a registered trademark, so it should always be spelled that way, and capitalized, too. How the Japanese would transliterate that particular term is therefore irrelevant, as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is not Japanese.

MarkF
17th April 2001, 11:11
, have you notice that the Danzan Ryu folks tend to use Jiu Jitsu as opposed to the more popular "ju"?

Yes, and Henry studied Jiudo at the Kodokwan
******

Heck, when I see jiu jitsu, I see Jiudo. So there ya go.

Simple when you bring it down to the basics.

Mark

PS: What Kit said (Sorry Robert:D )

Yamantaka
17th April 2001, 12:29
Mr. Carver,

Just to clear some misunderstood points :

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Carver
[B]What I would hope is that people learn a little from my experience of broad exposure to many different flavors of jujutsu and not just automatically write someone off just because of the spelling used.

YAMANTAKA : No one proposed that some "flavor of jujutsu" should be "authomatically wrote off" because of spelling. A good art and a correct spelling are two different things.

There are many people out there that have either chosen to spell it jitsu vice jutsu, or they just do not know any better. Either way, as long as it incorporates the principles of jujutsu, then it is jujutsu and they may have something valuable to offer.

YAMANTAKA : The same thing again...

A last thing : As Joe Svinth has pointed out, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has patented that name and so, probably, will not change it in any foreseeable future. No problem. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu will, hopefully, go on, correctly named or not.
But that, definitely, does not make two wrongs a right (linguistically speaking, of course...)

Best

jchetty
17th April 2001, 13:33
Hi all,

Quick question - when was JUJUTSU declared to be the correct spelling and by who? It seems to me that the phonetic spelling would be the correct one - therefore DJIU DJITSU.

Also the other spellings (JIU JITSU and JUJITSU) seem to have been used prior to the current standardisation. Mainly by arts branching of from early Kodokan judo influences. If those spellings preceded the acceptance of JUJUTSU as the correct spelling then they are not wrong. If people trace their lineage back to these branches, then their spelling isn't wrong either, I would think.

Regards,

Robert Carver
17th April 2001, 14:07
Yamantaka:

Just read your recent postings over at Aikido Journal. You DO get around! :) So did you ever figure out how to pronounce "what his name's" name?

Anyway, I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else in this thread were going to automatically "write off" someone because of their spelling of jutsu/jitsu. I am sorry if you intrepreted it this way. Unfortunately there are a few "Budo Snobs" out there that WILL do this. However, you have shown through your contributions here and elsewhere to be a man of integrity, knowledge and a true gentleman. My hat is off to you...

Best Always,

Yamantaka
17th April 2001, 17:27
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Yamantaka:
Just read your recent postings over at Aikido Journal. You DO get around! :) So did you ever figure out how to pronounce "what his name's" name?

YAMANTAKA : No...In the case of Szczepan #$%&#/%%, I bowed out. It's sheerly impossible! :cry:

Anyway, I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else in this thread were going to automatically "write off" someone because of their spelling of jutsu/jitsu. I am sorry if you intrepreted it this way. Unfortunately there are a few "Budo Snobs" out there that WILL do this.

YAMANTAKA : We must not base our discussions on the few, but on the many...But I know what you mean. What irks me very much is when some people try to change the thread, pretending that the ancient MISSPELLINGS were "correct ways" to denominate the arts and romanizations, like the Hepburn System, are "just" another case of "misspellings". I really have no patience to discuss things that way. :mad:

However, you have shown through your contributions here and elsewhere to be a man of integrity, knowledge and a true gentleman. My hat is off to you...

YAMANTAKA : EeeeKKK...!!! Most awful foul! You are hitting below the belt, Sir! :eek:

Best Always,

YAMANTAKA : Yours, too (I think I like this guy : He agrees with me..!) ;)

Yamantaka
17th April 2001, 17:41
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Yamantaka:
Just read your recent postings over at Aikido Journal. You DO get around! :) So did you ever figure out how to pronounce "what his name's" name?

YAMANTAKA : No...In the case of Szczepan #$%&#/%%, I bowed out. It's sheerly impossible! :cry:

Anyway, I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else in this thread were going to automatically "write off" someone because of their spelling of jutsu/jitsu. I am sorry if you intrepreted it this way. Unfortunately there are a few "Budo Snobs" out there that WILL do this.

YAMANTAKA : We must not base our discussions on the few, but on the many...But I know what you mean. What irks me very much is when some people try to change the thread, pretending that the ancient MISSPELLINGS were "correct ways" to denominate the arts and romanizations, like the Hepburn System, were "just" another "misspelling". I really have no patience to discuss things that way. :mad:

However, you have shown through your contributions here and elsewhere to be a man of integrity, knowledge and a true gentleman. My hat is off to you...

YAMANTAKA : EeeeKKK...!!! Most awful foul! You are hitting below the belt, Sir! :eek:

Best Always,

YAMANTAKA : Yours, too (I think I'm beginning to like this guy : He agrees with me..!) ;)

Paul Steadman
18th April 2001, 15:26
Hi Oll,

I dyust luv zis stuff, I sink it shuld be spellt JEW-JEWTSEW or maybe DEWDEWTSEW, wat do yu gise sink?

Oll ze best,

Pol Stedmun
(aka. Paul Steadman)

jchetty
18th April 2001, 15:37
Mie tu

Yamantaka
18th April 2001, 20:04
Originally posted by jchetty
Mie tu

YAMANTAKA : Zeerighfool, Gays(Geis?)! Zoold vee meik a pole? Yore grate quiddies...:D

John Bennett
18th April 2001, 22:34
Yamantaka wrote: YAMANTAKA : I see that you are a practitioner of brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Where did you get this idea?

The idea comes from the fact that these are the three ways people are generally using the word.

I wish only to point out a declaration of yours which has no basis on facts.

No fact?! Wrong as it may be in your opinion, it is a FACT that the word is commonly used the way I described.

You admit that JUTSU is more correct than JITSU but, by constant use of the misspelling (COMMON USAGE) they seem to have now different meanings.

Yes, that's the point.

What I disagree with was John's declaration that the different forms were meant to represent different arts.

They were not meant to. However they now in fact do.

--------------------

Kit Leblanc wrote: Just because an INCORRECT or MISUNDERSTOOD usage has become common does not make it right.

Yes. It does.

That's the way the english language works. Words change spelling and meanings over time.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys cannot comprehend this simple fact.

John Bennett
18th April 2001, 22:50
Butter cookies are not made out of butter.

Go to a "tractor pull" nowadays and you won't find too many tractors you would want to use on your farm.

Champange CANNOT come from California, but it does.

Did you remember to put your breeches on this morning? Maybe you wore britches instead.

Is Velveeta really cheeze? I'm not sure.

Don't go haywire thinking about it.

:)

Kit LeBlanc
19th April 2001, 02:00
Kit Leblanc wrote: Just because an INCORRECT or MISUNDERSTOOD usage has become common does not make it right.

Yes. It does.

That's the way the english language works. Words change spelling and meanings over time.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys cannot comprehend this simple fact. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is among the most asinine things I have ever heard. Misnomers, regardless of whether they are commonly accepted, are MISnomers. Simply because the majority believes or understands something a certain way DOES NOT make it correct, even if the word eventually changes it's meaning to fit popular understanding, or MISunderstanding as the case may be. It simply means everybody got it wrong for so long that attempting to correct it is futile, or that someone co-opted the terminology for a political or philosophical reason perhaps.

While I understand (and agree actually) that we may be able to generally glean something about someone's approach to jujutsu from the way they spell the word, it does not mean they spell it correctly.

I can do BJJ and love every minute of it, but I can say very comfortably that they spell jujutsu wrong, Helio Gracie didn't invent it or make it better even though he was a stellar practitioner, and no, jujutsu doesn't come from India even though it says so on some websites.

Kit

Warwick
19th April 2001, 08:56
I have to agree with Mr Bennet here. The English language is full of words whose meanings and spellings are the way they are because of misunderstandings, mis-spellings etc. in the dim distant past becoming accepted over time, and eventually becoming the 'correct' versions. That is how English has come to be in its present form, which is very different from earlier forms.

That doesn't mean that we have to accept mis-spellings etc without comment. English (unlike French for example) doesn't have an authority directing its development. It changes over time purely by usage. We all exert a small amount of pressure on the way the language develops. Some people use their influence to muddle the language. I prefer to use mine (such as it is) to maintain the aspects that I like, and resist the spread of developments in spelling and grammar that set my teeth on edge. It's only my opinion which is which. Saying "this is the 'correct' usage, because it's always been that way", (satisfying though that is) unfortunately makes little sense when talking about the English language.

Bill Bryson has written a couple of good books about the development of the language, which I recommend.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I agree completely that ju jutsu should be spelled phonetically, which is why (in English) it's spelled ju jutsu. ;)

Warwick Hooke

Yamantaka
19th April 2001, 14:24
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Misnomers, regardless of whether they are commonly accepted, are MISnomers. Simply because the majority believes or understands something a certain way DOES NOT make it correct, even if the word eventually changes it's meaning to fit popular understanding, or MISunderstanding as the case may be. It simply means everybody got it wrong for so long that attempting to correct it is futile, or that someone co-opted the terminology for a political or philosophical reason perhaps.
I can do BJJ and love every minute of it, but I can say very comfortably that they spell jujutsu wrong, Helio Gracie didn't invent it or make it better even though he was a stellar practitioner, and no, jujutsu doesn't come from India even though it says so on some websites.
Kit

YAMANTAKA : Very good, Kit! I couldn't say it better!

Yamantaka
19th April 2001, 14:58
Originally posted by Warwick
That doesn't mean that we have to accept mis-spellings etc without comment. I prefer to use mine (such as it is) to maintain the aspects that I like, and resist the spread of developments in spelling and grammar that set my teeth on edge. It's only my opinion which is which. Saying "this is the 'correct' usage, because it's always been that way", (satisfying though that is) unfortunately makes little sense when talking about the English language.
Getting back to the subject of this thread, I agree completely that ju jutsu should be spelled phonetically, which is why (in English) it's spelled ju jutsu.
Warwick Hooke

YAMANTAKA : I know that I'm quoting you partially but these are just my points :
a) "It's not a question of always been that way", since romanization is fairly recent. It's a case of correct linguistically spelling usage;
b) it's unfortunate that misspellings are accepted without any critical sense; and
c) since, in english, jujutsu should be spelled "Jujutsu", more the reason why there's no need for inconsequent different spellings (Jiu-jitsu for Brazilian JuJutsu; Jujitsu for European Jujutsu; and Jujutsu for Nihon Jujutsu).
Thank you very much for a good post
Ubaldo

Nathan Scott
19th April 2001, 20:16
It's nice to see this being discussed. Languages may change and evolve over time, but that does not mean that spelling and usage at any given time is arbitrary as a result.

Language is communication, and writing is an attempt at documenting and communicating data to others, in hopes that they will correctly understand. To cast off standarization, or communicate/write in an "overly academic" fashion is to write off a vast percentage of those that may wish to understand what you are trying to say. What's the point of that?

"Jitsu" refers to the kanji for "true", not "technique/art". To write Jujutsu as Jujitsu (at least as standards are now) is to mis-communicate the meaning of the terms being used, IMHO.

For further bickering... I mean, discussion about linguistics, have a look at the Aikido Journal thread "Honbu or Hombu":

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000458.html

Regards,

johan smits
19th April 2001, 20:38
Since things concerning jujutsu, jujitsu or jiujitsu have my keen interest I think this is worthwhile.

In Ryubi, the dragon's tail volume 6,Issue 2. there is an article by William Bodiford named - jujutsu in the old days.
In it is stated: "Both Kodokan practitioners and proponents of other styles used the words judo and jujutsu (which in rural dialects of Japanese was pronounced jujitsu) interchangeably without any distinction in meaning.".
Maybe this is where the confusion about jujutsu/jujitsu comes from.
I guess it means that jujitsu is not as wrong as some of us believe.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Yamantaka
19th April 2001, 23:26
Originally posted by johan smits
In Ryubi, the dragon's tail volume 6,Issue 2. there is an article by William Bodiford named - jujutsu in the old days.
In it is stated: "Both Kodokan practitioners and proponents of other styles used the words judo and jujutsu (which in rural dialects of Japanese was pronounced jujitsu) interchangeably without any distinction in meaning.".
Maybe this is where the confusion about jujutsu/jujitsu comes from.
I guess it means that jujitsu is not as wrong as some of us believe.
Best Regards,
Johan Smits

YAMANTAKA : Even with all the respect I have for Prof. WILLIAM BODIFORD (one of the greatest authorities on all things japanese), I'm forced to point out that the fact that the JUJITSU pronunciation in rural areas of Japan (usually more ignorant) DO NOT validate that spelling.
IMHO, I still consider JUJITSU as a misspelling...
Best regards and good keiko(in Jujutsu or Jujitsu or Jiu-Jitsu...) :wave:

johan smits
20th April 2001, 07:49
Just Keikoed,

Yamantaka,

I do not consider jujitsu a misspelling it is just another way and actually not a big deal.
On the other hand if it originates from ignorance and has spread so far and wide in the world maybe this says something about our world. Big Smiley (haven't figured out how it works, talk about ignorant!).

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

johan smits
20th April 2001, 07:53
I am NOT ignorant. I have just found out how the smiley's work.
Actually I a very wise master of jujutsu

LOL (what does it mean?)

Best,

Johan

Karl Friday
20th April 2001, 15:29
Originally posted by johan smits
Since things concerning jujutsu, jujitsu or jiujitsu have my keen interest I think this is worthwhile.

In Ryubi, the dragon's tail volume 6,Issue 2. there is an article by William Bodiford named - jujutsu in the old days.
In it is stated: "Both Kodokan practitioners and proponents of other styles used the words judo and jujutsu (which in rural dialects of Japanese was pronounced jujitsu) interchangeably without any distinction in meaning.".
Maybe this is where the confusion about jujutsu/jujitsu comes from.
I guess it means that jujitsu is not as wrong as some of us believe.

What Will (paraphrasing Yamada Minoru) was pointing out here was the origins of the (erroneous) romanization of the the word "jujutsu" as "jujitsu." Some early Western practitioners of these arts thought they heard their fellow students saying "jitsu" and romanized the word accordingly. That does not make it a correct or acceptable romanization for modern usage. The simple fact is that the vowel in both characters is the same: "u". Romanizing it with different letters is an error, plain and simple. Many people in the Tokyo area pronounce intersyllabic "g" sounds as something very close to an English "ng" sound (as in "sing"); but that doesn't make "Tokungawa" an acceptable alternative romanization for "Tokugawa." Here in the South, most of my students go to the "laibary" to check out books, but my spell checker still says the only acceptable spelling is "library."

Just some guy
20th April 2001, 19:26
I got to agree with Dr Friday. After all in the south people think mutual funds means everybody is having a good time. And then there are words like yonto. You know "We're going to the store, yonto?" And then there's my favorite "Howz ya Mom n 'em?" Ah thank Ah'll Have a Bare now. :beer:

Greg Jennings
20th April 2001, 20:03
Originally posted by Just some guy
I got to agree with Dr Friday. After all in the south people think mutual funds means everybody is having a good time. And then there are words like yonto. You know "We're going to the store, yonto?" And then there's my favorite "Howz ya Mom n 'em?" Ah thank Ah'll Have a Bare now. :beer:

I'm a Southerner who has lived all over the planet in my 39 years.

My observation has been that ignorance, bias and bigotry are uniformly distributed. The targets sometimes change but the problem remains the same.

johan smits
20th April 2001, 21:48
"My observation has been that ignorance, bias and bigotry are uniformly distributed."

Greg, that is very good, really really very good.

About jujitsu, well a big thank you to Dr Friday for solving this problem, at least as far as I am concerned. I should have known by now not to disagree with Meik Skoss on a subject like this but well.....
Happy to be a little less ignorant than before.

Best to all.

Johan Smits

Paul Steadman
21st April 2001, 16:12
Hi All,

I would have thought that the answer to the "jitsu," v's "jutsu," problem was obvious! One never sees; bujitsu, kenjitsu, iaijitsu, battojitsu or sojitsu etc, does one (well not in educated circles, anyway).

Why spell; ju-jitsu, when all the other arts are spelt (spelled) with a ....jutsu suffix?

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Joseph Svinth
21st April 2001, 20:53
Delete double posting.

Joseph Svinth
21st April 2001, 21:14
Paul --

Jujitsu is a loan word dating to the 1870s, judo is a loan word dating to the 1890s, and kendo is a loan word dating to the 1920s. The others, however, are foreign words that have never entered the language. Therefore transliteration varies.

As for those loan words, remember that English spelling is never consistent, but instead owes a lot to when and how the word entered the language. Thus typhoon (1588) is not spelled taii fung, as a Wades-Giles transliteration of Cantonese would have it. (Good thing, too, otherwise we might have to change it again to incorporate Pinyin.) Mispronunciation is common, too. For example, Julius Caesar is pronounced jewel-ee-us cee-zar rather than yule-ee-us kaiser, and veni, vedi, vici is rarely pronounced weenie, weedie, weekie.

My guess is that this is partly a Rumpelstiltskin effect (if we learn the magic name, then we think we have gained power over the thing) and mostly the desire to show off our erudition. (Look, Ma, I know the big word!) The sad part is that the same attention paid to our routine grammar, diction, and usage would provide greater all-round dividends.