(Re)starting Iaido and Kendo at the same time? Your thoughts?

[Spreeuw]

Hello community,

I've recently picked up Iaido (once again) and Kendo (as a newbie). Some 5 years ago, I practised Iaido for about 3 years (only the Seitei Kata). After wandering a few years each in aikido, kickboxing and ninjutsu, I feel that the specialized sword arts are truly my cup of tea. Hence, I would like to practice both Kendo and Iaido, since both are (theoretically at least) complimentary. Whereas Iaido should help me learn to wield the sword, Kendo should help me to carry it with calm alertness. However, there are also some major differences (e.g. footwork), which might hinder development.

In my case, as someone who's experience with the sword is shaped by the Seitei kata (but lots of finesse was lost, of course) would you recommend to delve into Kendo at the same time when coming back to Iaido (once again focusing on Seitei, I train at the same place as back then)? Or would you recommend focusing on one first? Which one would be best to prioritize in that case?
(Btw, I'm 28 now and also feel my youth slipping away... D= )

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration!

Simon Kuijpers

P.s. English is not my native language, so please excuse any weird grammatical or syntactical constructions :-)

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Simon,

Have you considered a traditional sword art like Katori shinto ryu? There is a highly experienced teacher in the Netherlands called Erik Louw, who lives in Amsterdam. He might be able to give you some advice.

Best wishes,

[Spreeuw]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your response and advice! In my dojo (http://kendokai-higashi.nl/), Katori Shinto Ryu is also one of the disciplines. The local teacher is Jeroen Smits.
I did follow a few lessons from him, and I think he is a good sensei. However, the previous five years of ninjutsu have been filled with nothing but paired kata. I feel like it is also good to approach budo from a different angle, if you catch my drift.

Simon

[ryoma]

Usually in koryû there should be a balance between paired work and solo work (as long as the curriculum provides this).
I guess in the Netherlands are a few koryû around. And if you check all of Europe even more.

[pgsmith]

... In my case, as someone who's experience with the sword is shaped by the Seitei kata (but lots of finesse was lost, of course) would you recommend to delve into Kendo at the same time when coming back to Iaido (once again focusing on Seitei, I train at the same place as back then)? Or would you recommend focusing on one first? Which one would be best to prioritize in that case?


Hello Simon, and welcome to e-budo. While there's a lot to be said about the differences between kendo, seitei iaido, and koryu, I'll answer the question that you actually asked. :)
I would say to go ahead and go for both kendo and iaido. I can't think of a good reason not to do both, unless you are very short on spare time and can't practice both.

Keep us up to date on how your training progresses!

[Spreeuw]

Hello Simon, and welcome to e-budo. While there's a lot to be said about the differences between kendo, seitei iaido, and koryu, I'll answer the question that you actually asked. :)
I would say to go ahead and go for both kendo and iaido. I can't think of a good reason not to do both, unless you are very short on spare time and can't practice both.

Keep us up to date on how your training progresses!

Thank you! And thanks for your answer!
I am a little bit in doubt due to the different approaches found in both disciplines when it comes to cutting and footwork (amongst other things).
In Seitei gata, you use suri ashi, but okuri ashi only in the Sogiri kata.
In Kendo, you strike more with forward momentum, while I feel that in Iaido cuts are more downwards and even a little bit towards you at the very end.
My hope was that some people with experience in both arts could illuminate how they deal(t) with these diverging demands.

One more question;
I like to practice Iaido Kihon and Kendo Suburi each morning. Right now, I practice both with my Iaito. This because it feels like the "better" approximation of the sword (with Bokuto as a runner-up and only in "last place" the Shinai). However, I doubt this approach. Perhaps I should not train judging by the degree to which they approximate a Shinken, but train Kendo with my Shinai and Iaido with my Iaito. How do you guys or girls feel about this?

[Brian Owens]

...Perhaps I should not train judging by the degree to which they approximate a Shinken, but train Kendo with my Shinai and Iaido with my Iaito. How do you guys or girls feel about this?

That seems reasonable to me. Training with the actual "tool" you'll be using is a good idea. On the other hand, doing suburi with a suburito is also useful, for building strength and stamina. There are many paths to the top of the mountain, as the saying goes.

[gendzwil]

I like to practice Iaido Kihon and Kendo Suburi each morning. Right now, I practice both with my Iaito. This because it feels like the "better" approximation of the sword (with Bokuto as a runner-up and only in "last place" the Shinai). However, I doubt this approach. Perhaps I should not train judging by the degree to which they approximate a Shinken, but train Kendo with my Shinai and Iaido with my Iaito. How do you guys or girls feel about this?Kendo for the most part is fighting with shinai. Kata, when we do it, is with bokken. We don't ever use iaito unless it's a formal kata demo. So you should train with the tools you will use.

[gendzwil]

On the other hand, doing suburi with a suburito is also useful, for building strength and stamina.Suburi with suburito is worse than useless. By doing the same motion with a much heavier and differently balanced tool, you are working on a different skill than a swing with a shinai. This can adversely affect your normal swing. This is why modern sports science advocates against doing stuff like swinging weighted baseball bats.

[Brian Owens]

...This is why modern sports science advocates against doing stuff like swinging weighted baseball bats.
Swinging a weighted bat just before going up to the plate is a bad idea because it can confuse the kinesthetic sense, adversely affecting timing and accuracy; but using a weighted bat (and barbells, dumbbells, calisthenics, etc.) as part of general conditioning can be beneficial.

[gendzwil]

Swinging a weighted bat just before going up to the plate is a bad idea because it can confuse the kinesthetic sense, adversely affecting timing and accuracy; but using a weighted bat (and barbells, dumbbells, calisthenics, etc.) as part of general conditioning can be beneficial.Barbells and dumbbells are different animals than weighted bats. There's a difference between weight training for specificity and developing the skill set. I wish I could find the references from a similar discussion I read on mfw a few years ago. This article (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ss28.htm) indicates that you can develop your swing with a slightly heavier bat but a really heavy one that causes different swing mechanics is a problem. This is the issue I have with suburito - they are way, way heavier than a shinai and that causes people to swing differently. Furthermore, if you use tenouchi to stop your swing as you should in suburi, you risk repetitive strain injury.

[Brian Owens]

...This is the issue I have with suburito - they are way, way heavier than a shinai and that causes people to swing differently. Furthermore, if you use tenouchi to stop your swing as you should in suburi, you risk repetitive strain injury.

Oh, I agree that there is a risk of RSI; but that risk exists in almost any sport if precautions aren't taken and moderation not exercised...if you'll pardon the pun. Also, while a suburito is way heavier than a shinai, it's only somewhat heavier than a katana, and the OP did say that he was interested in Iaido as well as Kendo.

[hyaku]

Speaking as someone who did both for some time. You need to keep the kendo and iaido as separate as possible as the habits of one will leech into the other. It may seem a strange thing to say as both are sword related. But as wheels of a cart they have become so specialized over the years that they have very strong and different distinctions. The differences are more apparent as you progress to a higher level and look for more perfection in each. Watching a good Iaidoka do Kendo this is apparently obvious. Being on the receiving end is obvious too. People in Japan are so intense about doing one art they rarely have time for two anyway.

[Spreeuw]

Speaking as someone who did both for some time. You need to keep the kendo and iaido as separate as possible as the habits of one will leech into the other. It may seem a strange thing to say as both are sword related. But as wheels of a cart they have become so specialized over the years that they have very strong and different distinctions. The differences are more apparent as you progress to a higher level and look for more perfection in each. Watching a good Iaidoka do Kendo this is apparently obvious. Being on the receiving end is obvious too. People in Japan are so intense about doing one art they rarely have time for two anyway.

Thanks! Could you elaborate somewhat on the obvious characteristics of watching an Iaidoka do Kendo, and those of being on the receiving end?
What are general bad or good habits of an Iaidoka or hybrid fighter compared to a pure Kendoka?

[hyaku]

Thanks! Could you elaborate somewhat on the obvious characteristics of watching an Iaidoka do Kendo, and those of being on the receiving end?
What are general bad or good habits of an Iaidoka or hybrid fighter compared to a pure Kendoka?

People with more of a background in Iaido tend to cut down very hard. Not all that many cuts to the head in Iai Also very stationary rather than stretch out and try to go through using the feet.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I think that what Simon may be asking is how the kinematics from one translate into the other. If you watch an iaidoka perform jodan, it looks totally different from kendoka doing the same kamae, at least in our ryuha. My wife trains in both kendo & iaido, & we both train in two schools of iai. It was fairly easy for me to understand both ryuha, but when kendo is added in, my wife gets corrected nearly every session for her "kendo hands."

Ken

[CEB]

I did both. My first Iai teacher was Suzuki Sensei ( kendo 7th dan) who taught us seitei. Being that everyone in the dojo had done both and were aware of the differences and the sensei would make sure were we corrected on our technique it may have helped. We also did Kendo kata for 30-60 minutes after every class. We were an old man's dojo that were taught Kendo as a more complete art than a lot of the college dojo I have seen. Maybe that made a difference that we were not into shiai. I think how a shinai feel different than an iaito helps to mentally compartmentalize.

I later did Seitei and MJER/SMR at the sametime I could compartmentalize the differences which is actually unusual for me. I tend to operate instictively at tasks.

I think eventually you need to do both shinai kendo and some art that actually handles a sword to get a somewhat complete education, if that is your goal. I never learned to cut in Kendo. But if I had bet money on a sword fight between a kendoka vs iaidoka ceterus parabus I would bet on a kendo player. Cuts may not be clean but he sure could hack the beegeebees out of someone and know how to move his feet.

Life is a time allocation problem.

[hyaku]

Lol, well you opened a cans of worms with that one. Two completely different disciplines where one moves around going through with a strike whereas koryu demands that you more or less stay on the spot and let them enter your ma-ai to cut him. Thing is as you advance to a senior level in kendo you tend to do a similar thing, let your opponent do all the dancing around and pick him off.

[CEB]

One of my favorite teachers was Maeda Sensei from Chicago. He has passed away now but he played Kendo in to his 90s I believe. At a Tai Kai he asked the group I was with to tie his shoes. He couldn't tie his shoes but he practiced Kendo at a high level. The man would struggle to go up and down stairs but when he was on the dojo floor he was a tiger.

I remember a godo keiko session. The top practitioners in the midwest formed a line. Everyone else would pick a line across from one of the teachers and ji geko then you got critiqued and given things you should work on. No one was lining up across Maeda Sensei. It seemed rude not to do so therefore you went to Maeda's line. You are thinking 'God I hope I don't hurt this old man'. :laugh:. He just stands there in chudan no kamae so you try something and he strikes you like a tiger. After a little bit of that you start to think 'OK the old man is going to get it now'. :laugh: :laugh: :D

He is like air. You can't touch him. He knows what you are going to do before you do. He reads you like an open book. He doesn't move unless it is with purpose and he does it with authority.

Kendo done at the highest levels is amazing.

Maeda Sensei, memory eternal.

[CEB]

I was wrong about his age. He passed away at 89.

The photo gallery I found an inspirational Budo picture picture.
http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Sachio-Maeda&lc=2202&pid=146979456&mid=4463876

[Derzis]

If you have time, do both. If you don't have time, chose what is closer to your way of looking to the Martial Art - if you like competition, go for kendo. If you like to pay attention to details, do iaido. But chose what will make you happy and will keep you wanting to do it and improve on it. It is your spare time after all, and doing something you don't get pleasure from it sucks.
Now, pairing katas from kendo are a good exercise for what is missing in iaido- and this is an easy fix with an Iaido Sensei who knows them and practice/or was practitioner of both. For me, iaido and kendo are not opposite, are complementary in the spirit of training. There is no good answer to your question. With your background in empty handed martial arts, things will go smoother than you imagine.