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Brad Hoffner
4th April 2001, 03:38
How would you kenjutsu practitioners compare Kashima Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu to other sword ryu?

Brad Hoffner

Meik Skoss
4th April 2001, 11:56
It's very good. Of course, being partisan, I don't think it is as good as MY school, but then nothing else is in any event. Seriously, though, Kashima Shinto-ryu an awfully interesting system. They've lost some of the curriculum, reconstituted a bit of what they do nowadays, but they have preserved quite a lot and what they're doing is excellent stuff.

Hope this helps.

Brad Hoffner
4th April 2001, 14:13
Mr. Skoss,

How would you compare Kashima Shinto-ryu Kenjutsu with Shinkage Yagyu-ryu Kenjutsu and Ono Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu?

Meik Skoss
4th April 2001, 15:01
B. Hoffner wrote: "How would you compare Kashima Shinto-ryu [k]enjutsu with Shinkage Yagyu-ryu and Ono-ha Itto-ryu?"

First off, it's (Yagyu) Shinkage-ryu (the proper name of the ryu is just Shinkage-ryu; Yagyu, Hikida, Nishi Itton are just popular sobriquets). Second, and I know this is being more than a bit fussy, but what's up with all this capitalization of Japanese terms. Presumably I (and the other folks reading posts in this forum) understand the meaning or etymology of terms used here.

How would I compare Kashima Shinto-ryu with Ono-ha and Yagyu Shinkage-ryu? It's good and they're good. If you want a *technical* comparison, well... go to Japan and take a look for yourself. Come to my dojo. Or go to other dojo in the U.S. where these ryu are practised. (It might be difficult to find, but Ono-ha Itto-ryu is around. I don't think that Kashima Shinto-ryu is practised outside of Japan or, maybe, England.)

I'm a student of Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei. so, of course, I have a very positive opinion of YSR. But I think Itto-ryu's a VERY good school. Indeed, I'm writing an essay about it (an historical and technical overview of the different IR systems) for our next book, to come out later this year.

Hope this helps.

Brad Hoffner
5th April 2001, 02:17
Meik,

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure why it is improper to capitalize Japanese terms but I would figure it to be right to capitalize these ryu.

I am not quite sure why the fussiness about this but you could enlighten the ignorant such as me and make us all feel better.

Thanks

Meik Skoss
5th April 2001, 03:18
It's a matter of basic English usage. Names, of course, are capitalized. Thus, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Los Angeles Dodgers, Birmingham United. But words like baseball, soccer (and kenjutsu!) are not. Cadillac, si! Car, no! It's not such a big thing, I guess, but as a former English teacher, editor and writer, it just bugs the heck out of me when I see such sloppy writing.

Maybe it's because I was outside the U.S. for 25 years, maybe it's because I wasn't hooked on phonics, but my correspondence over the last couple of years indicates that even a lot of people with tertiary educations can't spell, write worse, and have absolutely NO clue about a simple thing like when/where to place commas. So, one wants to know, whassup wi' dat?!

Mr. Hoffner, you are, of course, quite right to capitalize the names of the ryu. But why the name of the art? If'n you look in an *English* dictionary, you'll see that aikido and judo are not capitalized. Why, then, would kenjutsu or sojutsu be? Stands to reason, no?

Yes, I'm being pedantic. But, given all the slamming we have seen of this, that and the other person/art of late, so what? Why should we be forced to accept this ideal of the vulgar mean? Dumbing down is not the answer.

Brad Hoffner
5th April 2001, 03:43
Ah,

I believe I remember talking to you about Morihei Ueshiba before and you getting very upset with me for calling him O'sensei. If I recall, you didn't take to kindly of me saying that word by his name when there were so many other great teachers.

I guess, being very new to the Japanese martial arts, I need to be more careful of what I say to whom, so as not to upset people.

I am just in this to find out as much info as possible on some of the greatest martial artists of all time.

For instance, I find it interesting that Steven Seagal trained in the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu(is that better?). At least, I have read this. I believe Morihei Ueshiba(is that better?) also studied the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu.

Brad

David A. Hall
6th April 2001, 04:16
I would say Meik is getting prickly in his old age...but he's always been that way, especially with grammar and dah kine spelling.

What's all this I hear about Steven Segal and Yagyu Shingan-ryu? First I've heard of it. Wellll, Meik. Whaddya say about that, brah?

In the late 1970s early 80s there was an Englishman--Phil Jupp (sp?)-- who studied extensively in Kashima Shinto-ryu. Perhaps someone would know how to put you in touch with him?

Dave

Meik Skoss
6th April 2001, 04:27
B. Hoffner wrote: "I believe I remember talking to you about Morihei Ueshiba before and you getting very upset with me for calling him O'sensei. If I recall, you didn't take to kindly of me saying that word by his name when there were so many other great teachers."

You're correct in that I commented upon your use of the term O'Sensei (what? is Ueshiba after being Irish now?) so blithely. That was just a (not-?)too-subtle way say a clearer understanding of Japanese terms's a good thing for newbies to aspire to. People have every right to call it as they see it, of course, but when they sound stupid, it's a little odd for them to be taken aback when they're called on it. That was one of those situations.

"I guess, being very new to the Japanese martial arts, I need to be more careful of what I say to whom, so as not to upset people."

Upset is a bit too strong, perhaps? You asked for some information, which was given you. I took the liberty of pointing out a glitch in your use of Japanese. If that's a problem for you, don't ask. Seems reasonable.

"I am just in this to find out as much info as possible on some of the greatest martial artists of all time."

That's an admirable purpose.

"For instance, I find it interesting Steven Seagal trained in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu kenjutsu (is that better?). At least, I have read this. I believe Morihei Ueshiba (is that better?) also studied Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu."

Seagal studied Shinkage-ryu? When, where, and with whom? Inquiring minds want to know. I betcha dollars to doughnuts that's another story made up from whole cloth. It's certain that he didn't study with any teacher of any stature.

Regarding Ueshiba and Shinkage-ryu, Do you have any evidence of this? Most likely not. The only record of him doing a classical style of kenjutsu is Kashima Shinto-ryu. Ueshiba and a student of his, Akizawa Zenzaburo, did sign the KStR eimeiroku (enrollment register) back in the early Showa period. It's doubtful that Morihei S. did a lot (if any) direct training in the system.

My understanding is that he had his deshi practise and he'd watch. Being extremely skillful in budo, he was able to take the sort of things he wanted/needed and adapt it to his own use. Thence comes Saito Morihiro's stuff, a very watered down verion of KStR Omote waza. Guess who found this? Me, when I visited the Yoshikawa Dojo back in the late '70s. Some senior Aikikai teachers said, "No way! That could'nt have happened! Never, ever!" When I told them I'd seen the record with my own eyes and that, yes, indeed, I can read just fine, thanks very much, they had nothing to say.

But Shinkage-ryu? Naaaah... The only sign of Ueshiba's ever having done anything like that is the "Shochikubai no ken," as taught by Hikitsuchi Michio. Matsu no ken is Kaboku; Take no ken is Zantei settetsu; Ume no ken is Ozume. It is not at all clear these techniques derivation, but they've a more than superficial resemblance to YSR. My guess is that they came via Gejo Kozaburo, a friend and colleague of Admiral Yamashita, the guy who aided Ueshiba in becoming set up in Tokyo.

Anyway, you've asked some good questions. Hope that some of my answers have helped. Contact me off-forum if you've any other questions, please.

Dave Lowry
6th April 2001, 18:56
I’m speculating the stuff about Uyeshiba/YSR came from Uyeshiba Kisshomaru’s first book on aikido in English. In my 1963 edition, I found—and talk about problems with inappropriate capitalization:

“The next [teacher of Uyeshiba] was Masakatsu Nakai of the Yagyu Sect of Fencing, who lived in Sakai City at that time. The Master [Uyeshiba] obtained a certificate from this sect in July 1908.”

It wasn’t pointed out that this was actually Yagyu Shingan ryu.

I shall await, along with legions of others, for any information about Mr. Seagal’s connexion with the YSR Sect of Fencing.

I would presume to add to Mr. Skoss’s dithyramb on spelling and other matters of usage, these observations:

Clarity, in spelling, punctuation, and structure, is very often a reflection of clarity in thought. Taking time to polish your grammar and spelling makes it easier on your readers certainly, yet it also causes you to think about what you’re saying before you broadcast it here. There is sometimes a sense that contributors employ a stream-of-consciousness approach. The omote results are sloppy construction, incorrect spelling, etc. The ura, what we can see behind these contributions, are disjointed thoughts, fragmented logic, and the frequent need to post further to "say what I meant."

Cordially,

Scott Irey
6th April 2001, 19:32
i, aint not, quit sure what all you fellers are fussering aabout propaer like englush, and, teh spellin, and, teh grammaticals, and teh whatnot. I figures as iffin a fellar has gots sumthang that whats he wants to say, then i reckons shootin from the hip an all is just fine with me, Thats what i say anyhow. anyways then if teh feller is using them words wahats comes form JAPANESE BUDO than that fellar should ought ta use all capitol letters so as I can tells its a JAPANESE ward. anyways thats all i has to say.

gud by

Meik Skoss
6th April 2001, 19:56
Yo, Ultimate Master Lowry, what you said! You da man!

That'd be what I meant w/ re: incorrect spelling, worse punctuation, terrible organization). And shame on me for not being more specific; who'm I to bitch re: sloppy?

S'far's I can tell, the quote from U. Kisshomaru's English edition book, *Aikido* (actually a combination of several Japanese language books, *Aikido* and *Aikido Giho*) is the source of the idea that U. Morihei had studied the Shinkage-ryu waza to some extent. As you mentioned, it was (Goto-ha) Yagyu Shingan-ryu, and the makimono he received was never officially "sealed" with the head of the school's personal chop. Nakae was an instructor, but didn't have the authority to issue menkyo using his own name.

The problem is that Ueshiba Kisshomaru was not precise and didn't appear to know much about koryu. That particular menkyo is for shoden, *not* a "certificate of mastery" as has sometimes been said in English publiscations. If the truth be told, Ueshiba Morihei never received menjo beyond the intermediate level. What he was was very -- no, exceptionally -- talented, a man who transcended what he'd been taught and took this "aiki" art in a new direction. He's to be commended, but not venerated, for his accomplishments, and present-day aikido students should get over the miracle stories and just get on with their own training.

Finally, I don't know if it was a dithyramb so much as an out 'n out snit fit. Mr. Hoffner and I've corresponded in the past and we did discuss the hagiofrication of Grand Master Morrie. It's nice that he's respectful of the art's founder, but one gets very tired of people thinking that "O-Sensei" must perforce mean Ueshiba Morihei. NOT!!! There've been any number of teachers with that title in past, and there're at least two or three today. That oh-so-very smug and precious complacency so many aikido types exhibit when talking about Morihei-o is what gets (and got) my goat. Been there, done that, even got the t-shirt. It's kinda boring, though.

By the way, I'm not saying Mr. Hoffner was complacent or smug in our correspondence; I responded to him on a more general basis and unloaded on him. I'd thought that'd been worked out between us, but I guess I need to be more specific. So, Mr. Hoffner, I'm sorry if I upset you with my comments in the past. You have asked rather good questions and you seem to be in earnest. Forgive me for getting (more) cranky and crotchety in my dotage -- as D. Hall will attest, I've always been that way.

aikiinyoho
6th April 2001, 22:17
I have read your articles on Koryu.com and found them very interesting.

But I was reading down below about Nishio style aikido and his sword work and found a very interesting couple of statements by you:

I hate to say it, but the majority of the people who train in Ueshiba-style aikido have
absolutely NO clue re: what they are doing in terms of martial arts or self-defense. It
is the result of a number of factors, dating from the '70s and is probably unavoidable
when one considers all the social changes since WWII and aikido's "Golden Age."


Don't you think that you are being painting all of the Aikikai with a broad brush? Have you ever seen Hiroshi Isoyama or Sadateru Arikawa or Tadashi Abe do aikido? I have both of Katsuyuki Kondo's Daito-ryu videos and have seen him in person and found his style along with the 3 I mentioned above to very effective and very practical. You stated that what Mr. Hoffner said above by using O'sensei instead of O-sensei as being stupid. Well, don't you think you are being stupid by generalizing about the Aikikai?

John Stevens

Meik Skoss
6th April 2001, 22:50
J. Stevens wrote: "Don't you think that you are being painting all of the Aikikai with a broad brush? Have you ever seen Hiroshi Isoyama or Sadateru Arikawa or Tadashi Abe do aikido? I've both of Katsuyuki Kondo's Daito-ryu videos and have seen him in person and found his style, along with the three I mentioned above, to be very effective and very practical."

Yup, I have. And trained with everybody you mentioned, except for Isoyama and Abe (he was recently dead), as a student in Japan (Dc'73~Dc'97), as well as Hikitsuchi, Shirata, Tanaka (Bansen), et alia. Plus, I talked with the oldtime guys, (the above-named folks) as well as others less well-known, travelling all over the country, and also trained in a *lot* of dojo throughout Honshu, Hokkaido and Kyushu. I missed Shikoku and Okinawa, but hope to go/train there, too.

"You stated that what Mr. Hoffner said above by using O'sensei instead of O-sensei as being stupid. Well, don't you think you are being stupid by generalizing about the Aikikai?"

No, I don't think I'm being "stupid" regarding the Aikikai. Critical? I'll cop to that. But stupid or unfounded? Nope, I reckon not. *That* was supposed to be a joke. Maybe a bit barbed, but a joke nonetheless. Sooo solly, Cholly!

Let's get back to Kashima Shinto-ryu/swordsmanship. If you want to discuss my views on aikido, contact me by e-mail <mskoss@koryubooks.com>, not on the sword forum, okay?