PDA

View Full Version : H.E. Davey & Saigo-ha/ Saigo ryu



Nathan Scott
5th April 2001, 01:14
Hello,

I was just searching for information on H.E. Davey Jr. in relation to a question asked on another board, and came across this link (look familiar?):

http://www.daito-ryu.com/links/page.htm

The daito-ryu.com people have updated their web page, and now have Mr. Davey in their links section. While the title reads "links on Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and other martial arts", every other link on the page is to a member or delegate of the Seishin Abashiri Dojo.

I intend to email Mr. Davey to invite him here to discuss his relationship with him, or at least get some kind of statment.

BTW, the daito-ryu.com page also mentions that Mr. Certa, their Italian representative, is here at the Illinois branch as we speak (Mar. 31 to April 6) conducting a semi-private seminar!

Regards,

AAC
6th April 2001, 10:09
OK..

H.E. Davey published a book a few years ago on his style of "aiki". (It's in a box somewhere with the rest of my pseudo Daito ryu, and bad budo books.) He goes into some detail about, his father and Saigo-ha. There is even photos of him in Aizu. at the home of Saigo Tanomo.

BTW, I once asked Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei if real Daito ryu can be found in Fukushima prefecture (old aizu). His answer was negative and said what is there is fake.

The link page on Daito-ryu.com, does have a link to Mr. Davey online journal Michi. It was incorrect to say "every other link on the page is to a member or delegate of the Seishin Abashiri Dojo" A link to a Eskrima club is given just above the one to Mr. Davey online journal. There is likely no relationship between Takeda Tokimune's students and Mr. Davey. The link to his page may have been misleading.

The Abashiri Dojo heads some 30 or more Daito ryu dojos in Japan, from Tokimune's sensei Daito ryu Aikibudo.

About your search for information on Mr. Davey... that's my two cents. However, he would "not" be my first place to look for information on Daito ryu, or second, or third and so on....

Regards,

Nathan Scott
6th April 2001, 18:00
Hello Mr.Cobb,

I don't remember anything connecting Mr. Davey to Saigo-ha.

But now that you mention it, I do remember reading alot about Saigo-ha in his book, and had the impression that there must be some kind of association between them. But the text I was searching for regarding training credentials only came up with one or two Jujutsu styles, not Aikijujutsu and not Daito ryu.

Hopefully we'll find out from Mr. Davey directly. I emailed him a couple of days ago inviting him to participate in the discussion here. I'd really like to hear what he has to say, since what I've read so far (which isn't everything) does not seem to be very clear yet.

Interesting comment about Fukushima. Fukushima-ken is just north of Tokyo a bit on Honshu if I remember correctly. I'm sure Kondo Sensei and others must have passed through there on occaison.


It was incorrect to say "every other link on the page is to a member or delegate of the Seishin Abashiri Dojo" A link to a Eskrima club is given just above the one to Mr. Davey online journal. There is likely no relationship between Takeda Tokimune's students and Mr. Davey.

<font size=2>I'm either blind, or it wasn't there when I first checked the link! But your right, it could be coincedental, more or less. Hopefully we'll find out.

As far as adding two more cents, I'm going to reserve judgement on the chance that a discussion will be initiated.

Regards,</font>

Walker
6th April 2001, 23:04
Nathan,
My feeling from his book and from various discussions of Saigo-ha is that they are two different entities - the Davey’s gig and the Japanese gig not even mentioning the Canadian thing and others.

Nathan Scott
9th April 2001, 20:10
I've just received a reply from Mr. Davey (on 4/4/01) regarding the invitation I sent him:


Thank you for the e-mail. Please forgive the slowness of my reply.

I'm pretty busy with my dojo, various books I'm writing, and other projects, so I don't really follow the different martial arts newsgroups and e-budo.com. I had some limited contact with the person in charge of e-budo, who was kind enough to post a notice about the death of my friend Walter Todd Sensei. I don't recall his name, but he seemed like a nice and sincere person.

Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto, Guy Power, and some of my other friends read e-budo quite a bit when it first got started, and they encouraged me to check it out, which I did. I found the forum to be well-executed and interesting, but due to time constraints I've been trying to limit my computer use to working on my books. I'm sure if I got started hanging out at e-budo, I'd be there way too much and never get anything done. ;-)

So, here's a couple of quick answers to your questions. I edit the Michi Online Journal of Japanese Cultural Arts. Aside from the journal we have a large collection of links for everything from aikido to Zen. Whenever we list a new link, we automatically send e-mail to the listed website to let them know that we have added their link. A number of websites respond by giving us a reciprocal link. This is what happened with the group in Abashiri. They are simply one of several hundred links on our site, and it looks like they have added a link to Michi Online. I have no connection with them other than that, and about all I know of the group is what I read quite some time ago on their site. In short--I'm not a member.

We're still doing research into what my dad learned in Japan, and we have as many questions as answers at this point. I haven't been able to go back to Aizu-Wakamatsu in the past few years to continue the research I started due to an elderly mother my wife and I are caring for. I hope to be able to do so again at some future point. So, the best source of historical information is the book I wrote. At this time, I don't have much to add to what you can find in that publication. Perhaps if I discover something new or find errors in my research, I'll be able to issue a revised edition or second volume someday.

Sorry about the brief and slow reply, but I hope it is sufficient. I tend to be rather bad about responding to e-mail due to my fairly busy life.

Feel free to post this reply at your forum as long as it is in its entirety and not altered in any manner. However, I'd appreciate it if you don't post my e-mail address. When it was posted several years ago in some budo newsgroups, I received more e-mail from people trying to find authentic jujutsu instruction than I could handle. I'm not that hard to find, but as I'm in the middle of the final edit on my fourth book and finishing up my fifth book, I want to limit the amount of e-mail I receive at this time.

Good luck with your discussion forum on e-budo. I probably won't have time to participate in it, but I hope you this is a successful project for you.

Best wishes,

H. E. Davey

<font size=2>So there you have it. Not much better off than we were, but on the other hand, a polite response is always encouraging.

Has anyone who has trained with, attended a seminar, or had a relationship with Mr. Davey have any (considered) impressions to add?

Regards,</font>

ghp
13th April 2001, 19:35
Nathan,

To begin, I must state clearly that I am a Division Director (Iaido) of the Shudokan Martial Arts Association http://www.michionline.org/smaa/, which is headed by Hugh Davey. After my return to the US I saw his organization and felt it was worthwhile, so I asked to join. I had to ask about 3 times ... finally, I mailed copies of my menjo from Nakamura sensei -- and Hugh contacted me immediately. Apparently he gets lots of undocumented applicants claiming high ranks.

I have absolutely no knowledge of Daitoryu, so I cannot answer that question. However, I've known Hugh since 1996 -- I have not met him, yet I've had many an in-depth discussion with him regarding various budo teachers I've known.

I can say that although I've not seen his waza, he is a very knowledgeable person. Hugh is highly connected with the Kokusai Budoin (jujutsu division I believe) and is a Councilor (hyogiin) and US Shibu Riji (branch director) of that well-known organization. He has received his kyoshi license and is one of their Chief Examiners for the jujutsu division (directly from Sato sensei, I believe). And, he has been invited on numerous occasions to present enbu at the Kokusai Budoin's Sogo Budo taikai on many occasions. I'm sure that he told me he gave the opening remarks for a couple of the taikai.

I understand that his father learned judo and "jiu-jitsu" in the Pacific Northwest as a youngster -- back in the 1930s, and is a Kodokan yudansha. Joe Svinth found a jujutsu club photo with one "hakujin" in the group. However, the picture wasn't clear enough for Hugh resolutely say, "yes! this is my father!" In my opinion, someone else of less exacting scruples would have said it definitely was his father. Hugh is not 100% sure the photo is of his father -- although it bears a striking resemblance to one of his parents' wedding photos. I think that says a lot for his integrity. Joe Svinth might have more insight on this particular point.

Apparently the Kokusai Budoin accepts Hugh's father's jujutsu (or aikijujutsu?) lineage -- and feels there may be a connection between the two teachers named Saigo (can't remember ... Tanomu? Shinji?) based on viewing Hugh's waza. However, Hugh told me that since there is no paper trail, he doesn't push it. That sounds right ... he's a firm believer in proper documentation.

You mention Daitoryu in some of the posts. I've never heard Hugh say he was affiliated. He's given me some addresses of teachers in the US (both Hakkoryu and Daitoryu) -- but as far as I know, he's only involved with Shin-shin Toitsu aikido, and jujutsu. Because of his close relationship with the late Walter Todd, Hugh *might* have studied karate, but that is just speculation on my part.

Hugh and I have had looooooong talks regarding one of my early teachers -- one who somewhat "gilded the lily" about things. Hugh, while maintaining his politeness, was very objective and forthright as he explained why he didn't agree with the stated history,etc. As a matter of fact, my conversations with Hugh were very similar to those I've had with Toby Threadgill. I've not met Toby, yet judging from what others have said of him, what I've read, and my conversations with him, I can form an educated opinion of him. This I have also done with Hugh.

I do know for a fact that Hugh is a highly skilled calligrapher in the Japanese style. I have received handwritten "Summer Greetings" and Christmas cards. His shuji is wonderful -- my wife and mother-in-law find it hard to believe a Westerner could execute such beautiful calligraphy.

The shame of all this is that he lives only 2 hours from me and I've not taken up his invitation to visit and train. I have never fully endorsed someone I've not met; however, I unequivically endorse Hugh Davey.

Regards,
Guy

Nathan Scott
13th April 2001, 23:18
Thanks to Mr. Power and Mr. Lowry for offering their comments and experience (in public and private respectively).

It does not sound like Mr. Davey is being evasive or deliberately misleading.

I think the comments that occaisonally come up regarding him are mainly the result of his book on "aikijujutsu", which was, to the best of my recollection, the first English language book specifically addressing this increasingly popular art. As a result, it has been well read by those in the AJJ community, and issues of background and qualifications have been sought out.

The same has been said about the more recent "Hidden Roots of Aikido" published by Kodansha. The author only mentions his teachers name in passing on the back inside-leaf of the cover.

The techniques may be reasonable, but are they "aikijujutsu"? What line do they come from?

I'll look forward to reading more from Mr. Davey in the future.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
9th May 2001, 23:33
I just came across something that has perhaps been the cause of confusion with regards to Mr. Davey.

There was a thread on the Aikido Journal web page some time ago asking about "Saigo ryu" and H.E. Davey:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000014.html

From this, I thought to have a look at the Kokusai Budoin page, of which H.E. Davey is the Western US Rep. The following page on their web page makes reference to "Saigo ryu":

http://www.imaf.com/gendo/gendo96.html#Kobudo

Following is the relevant section:


Saigo Ryu

Saigo Ryu is based on the techniques of Kito Ryu and Tenshinshinyo Ryu as taught by the Aizu-han, Tanomo Saigo. The next generation soke was Kenji Saigo.

Following the Second World War, Hugh Davey Sr. came to Japan as part of the Allied occupying forces, and spent the ensuing seven years studying with Saigo Soke. At the end of his tenure, Hugh Davey Sr. received a Menkyo Kaiden before returning the United States. Hugh Davey Jr., Branch Director - USA, will be demonstrating at today's exhibition.

<font size=2>Whether this information is still considered correct or not is unknown. This section came from the Kokusai Budoin newsletter, "Gendo", in 1996. However, it's the first I've heard of Kito ryu jujutsu or Tenjin shin'yo ryu jujutsu being taught by Saigo Tanamo (which happen to be the parent arts adapted in the founding of Judo, perhaps coincidentally).

This kind of information, combined with the strong references to the Saigo line in Mr. Davey's book (published in 1997) is surely the reason why confusion has risen regarding what it is he is teaching.

In fact, the introduction to his aforementioned book also states:

"The first half of Unlocking the Secrets of Aiki-jujutsu is designed as an overview of aiki-jujutsu in general, while the second, portion illustrates the techniques of Saigo Ryu, since this is the system of aiki-jujutsu with which the author is most familiar."

"The credentials of individuals claiming to teach Saigo Ryu aiki-jujutsu can be checked by contacting the author at the address given in the appendix."

re-printed from Mr. Davey's "SMAA HQ" page at:

http://www.michionline.org/smaa/articles/davey_aiki-jujutsu.html

Aizu wakamatsu-han, where Saigo Tanamo was from, is now a part of what is called Fukushima prefecture, which is north of Tokyo. Tenjin shin'yo ryu is primarily located in Tokyo, according to Koryubooks.com, though it is possible someone could have been teaching up in Aizu at some point.

BTW. further discussion about H.E. Davey and/or the "Saigo ryu" can be found on the Aikido Journal BBS:

-Saigo ryu? (http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000023.html)

Regards,</font>