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PRehse
6th April 2001, 18:57
A couple of posts on the Aikido section might be answered better here. It initially started when I said that Kenji Tomiki was 9th Dan Kodokan Judo.

Lot's of snippage.

<<
Actually, he wasn't. He was a 7-dan when he left the Kodokan, and it is also in his own words in Judo and Aikido. If he were posthumously awarded a higher grade, that would have been extremely rare, as the only person the Kodokan graded posthumously was Jigoro Kano. He claimed no dan, and consequently was raised to an artifial top.
>>

Me again (also snipped)
<<
I was always told 9th Dan and this was at Shodokan Honbu. However, after a quick search, the only references I can find is the last sentence in http://www.tomiki.org/tomikihistory.html which probably came from the same source as my knowledge and the entry from Stanley Pranin's http://www.AikidoJournal.com encyclopedia entry which states that he was awarded 8th Dan in Kodokan Judo in 1964 about 15 years before his death and 6 years before he retired from Waseada University where he taught both Aikido and Judo. I vaguely remember that the 9th Dan is referred to in Nariyama and Shishida's book on Aikido Kyogi which I was helping to translate into English.
>>


And finally me this morning with some minor snippage.

<<
There is a great article on AikidoJournal online about Professor Yamashita who was apparently the first person to be awarded 10th Dan posthumously so it appears Kano was not the only one.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/ajArticles/_ProfYamashita.asp
>>

Question: Does anyone know how common posthumous grades are and also was Tomiki promoted to 9th Dan and how (dead or alive)?

Karl Kuhn
7th April 2001, 07:03
Hi Peter,

Have you inquired with Honbu? Seems like as good a place as any, no?

Cheers,
Karl

MarkF
7th April 2001, 07:17
Hi, Peter,
It was me who posted that Tomiki was a 7-dan. I based it on what I have read and what I have learned in the past 35 plus years playing judo. As far as I know, he was a 7-dan, but I could be wrong. Most aikidoka whom I have discussed Tomiki agree, but then stories have a way of writing themselves, and I would not be so callous as to argue your sources. So far, mine have said he was 7-dan (judo). However, he did come back, especially since the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu came from indeas and principles from Tomiki Sensei, not to mention others. But it was his principles on which this "kata" was built.

As to Yoshitsugu Yamashita being awarde a ten-dan posthumously, I sincerely doubt it. Since Kano began Kodokan jujutsu and gave shodan ranking to his first students, when actual novices (basically, on the first day of instruction), I don't see the reason for the poshumous grade. There just isn't any proof this took place, nor is there reason why he shouldn't, in those days, have been considered a 10-dan.

Posthumous grades are much more common these days, but rarely was it done then. Since Kano never claimed any grade in judo, other than shihan and only others referred to him as such, the Kodokan committee probably created an artifificial grade of junidan for Kano.
****

All that said, when, why, how, and so forth, since Kano became further estranged from the politics of the Kodokan, we probably will never know the complete truth. There was one early judoka, who received his shodan with only three months training (actual time in training, previous training in other MA, and other reasons must be taken into account) when he was able to throw five highly regarded black belts without being thrown himself, and in two years, was godan, when he was able to do the same with those of that grade and higher.

This is the first I've heard of Yamashita being graded after his death, especially since he was Kano's personal uke for much of his life. Ukemi being the way to learn, it would indeed be surprising if true.
*****

So how much of this does go on and why? If it wasn't deemed important enough during a lifetime, I don't see the need for it being done afterward, but time has taught me that nothing is ever seen the same by two indivual people, so I don't argue something like this being done.

But as I thought that Tomiki, being 8-dan (aikido), placed the highest grade of accomoplishment in Shodokan aikido at 8-dan. Perhaps his late wife left something in regard to this, and since Diane Skoss recently gave us the news of Mrs. Tomiki's passing, she too may know where the facts lay.

I'm going to be asking, etc., about this, so thanks for your imput. Anything else you can add would make this more interesting, and perhaps I can learn something from it.

Mark

MarkF
7th April 2001, 11:59
Hi, again, Peter,
It looks to be a question to most. I've searched the Internet pretty thoroughly (amazingly enough, there isn't a whole lot in English, so I checked sites in Spanish, french, Italian, and Portugues) and mostly, it isn't mentioned. However on the following site, if true, we both are wrong.

http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~murray/aikido/senseis/Tomiki.shtml

It states he was graded to 8-dan by the Kodokan in 1964. If it can be believed, and there isn't much to argue, we are both wrong.

I've spoken to the curator of the Kodokan Museum in Tokyo (this was only a comment as that wasn't the purpose of the call), Murata Kenji, and he had said Kenji Tomiki was last a nanadan before his passing.

I can call again, if you would like or call the Tomiki Honbu as suggested.

Nothing on the Internet says he was kyudan in either aikido or in judo, but hachidan in both. After that, it becomes somewhat of a cunundrum.

So it seems, if anything, the last 15 years of his life, in this case, is a little on the mysterious side. My thinking is that he didn't speak about it, no one asked, and/or it wasn't important, which is more probably the case.

But his book "Judo and Aikido" says he was 8-dan aikido (it says nothing of which style, but since he started with Ueshiba's aikibudo, you probably know better about that). I doubt it would be a grade in his own style, shodokan.

Anyway, I hope this helps in my own muddled way.

Mark

PRehse
7th April 2001, 14:33
I will be in Honbu for three months this summer and I will ask then and perhaps a cross-post to the tomiki-l will get a nibble.

I know it doesn't sound like it but his rank in Judo is not that important to me but it just seems there are conflicting pieces of info that I would like to see resolved.

The Aikido history sections usually concentrate on you guessed it Aikido. The only mention on the officical Japan Aikido Association site is his being awarded a fifth dan in Judo at the same year he entered Ueshiba's dojo.

You are right he never awarded himself a grade in his own style. Seemed to be perfectly happy with his 8th Dan from Ueshiba which was awarded in 1941.

Small piece of political trivia - apparently Kodokan did not send a representative to Tomiki's funeral. It was important enough to some people that it was one of the first things I heard about the Kodokan while I was there. Apparently there was some sort of political stress between Wasaeda and the Kodokan. Who knows.

MarkF
8th April 2001, 09:30
Hi, Peter,
No, it isn't important. In that, I agree. But sometimes when looking for the fairly base information, other things come up, such as your mention of the Kodokan not being present at his funeral. I've heard that before and believe it.

The Kodokan long-ceased before that in being just the main school of judo. In fact, it was while Kano was still living, and some of the earlier, and original students of the Kodokan were complaining that it wasn't their judo anymore, by the 1930s.

There have been many splits from the Kodokan and from within. It was the same for Kyuzo Mifune, and he never did leave, but it took a long time for the Kodokan to credit him with anything. Even today, in the newest edition of Kodokan Judo, Tomiki's name isn't mentioned at all. Politics. Not even a person to speak for him, or even represent the Kodokan is sad and trite.
*******

Waseda was the home of many who disagreed with the political Kodokan. M. Kawaishi was one. If not decided by committee, it wasn't judo.

So no, it's not important. It wasn't then, but it would have been nice if the politics were put aside at times such as that. It took some 15 years or so for them to respectfully remember Mifune.

So keep in touch. My only exposure to aikido was Tomiki, and that was in the late sixties. I'd never seen it before, and there was randori on the mat kitty corner to where I taught judo in NYC for a few months. I signed up for classes, as I was paying for my workouts by giving classes in judo. The aikido I paid for.:)

Mark

PRehse
8th April 2001, 21:19
Originally posted by MarkF
[B]
The Kodokan long-ceased before that in being just the main school of judo. In fact, it was while Kano was still living, and some of the earlier, and original students of the Kodokan were complaining that it wasn't their judo anymore, by the 1930s.

Waseda was the home of many who disagreed with the political Kodokan. M. Kawaishi was one. If not decided by committee, it wasn't judo.


Interesting stuff. My love of history is just that - I like to get an understanding of relationships.

No nibble yet on my post on Tomiki-l but in any case I think I will explore the whole question of Tomiki and Judo a little further this summer and will post any info I come across on the list.

It is gratifying to see that although Tomiki may not be mentioned in the new Kodokan book his name keeps popping up on Judo web sites. My two favourites are.
http://judoinfo.com/menu.shtml
http://members.aol.com/Cunningham/ju01000.htm

Just a quick question then - do all dan grades in Japan for Judo enimate from the Kodokan or is there a umbrella organization? You mentioned several schools.

MarkF
9th April 2001, 07:16
Well, the Kodokan may be said to be "soke." The Kodokan ranks are by far the most "official," there is nothing which prevents others from grading judoka.

In the US, there is the USJF, the original one, the USJA, and the umbrella organization US Judo or the USJI, US judo, incorporated. The USJF is by far the most conservative in its ranking, and follows pretty closely the Kodokan in the manner of doing it. They must approve all black belt nominations, but the IJF must approve the higher ranking, or those, say, who have the time in training, competition, age, and the "what have you done for me lately" kind of thing.

The Kodokan doesn't interfere with this, but a sandan teaching license from the Kodokan carries more weight say, than a rokudan from the USJA (don't jump on me, people. It is just an example), at least many have at least shodan from the Kodokan and may be godan or rokudan in the US. Anything above rokudan must be apporved by the IJF (unless you do your training in Japan at the Kodokan or other clubs associated). For example, the Kodokan has recently announced they will no longer be issuing licenses of judan anymore. The two newest judan are Anton Geesink and Charles Palmer, but it is the IJF which approved it. For Geesink, I am pretty sure he is rokudan with the Kodokan.

Any higher than that, the minimum age is 110 years old.:)

All in all, a grade in this country from the USJF, the oldest of the national bodies, is probably the one which a judoka would want to secure.

You mentioned Judo-L. Steven R. Cunningham is graded to rokudan, last I checked, with the USJA, but when I wrote the USJF, they didn't have anything on file since he was graded shodan "sometime in the middle seventies, but that doesn't mean he isn't ranked with one of the other groups." That was a quote from them. They said the last they had on him was from the early nineties and hadn't received any requests to bump him higher than shodan. I went to the USJA, and he is rokudan, a "bronze" member (I'm really have no idea what that is) to boot. I got a kind of "grunt" from USJI. They didn't want to discuss it.

This is all political. So many good judoka are unafilliated and still hold their dan grade for twenty years because of it. Trevor P. Leggett was, until his passing in August, 2000, was a rokudan with the Kodokan, but wouldn't play footsie, so he was that rank for more years than I've been alive, and that's a lot.
*****

While you're in Japan, a visit to the Kodokan may prove to be well, interesting. The museum is a one of a kind, and judo isn't the only thing taught there. To be the Kodokan J. Kano wanted, they would have to do so. His invitation was basically open to all styles, and not limited to koryu jujutsu.

As to Tomiki, I always assumed that he was 7-dan because that was what most folks said or wrote, and there is also the fact that it is stated in at least one book he wrote, Judo and Aikido, but that was a long time ago. Tomiki was probably as important to Kodokan Judo as any other who helped define the syllabus. JudInfo's stuff On Tomiki is mostly from his writings, or at least is based on it.

If you are interested in Kodokan history, try this_link (http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm). It is the University of Montana's Big Sky judo program. For an online history, it is probably the most complete history I've seen.

Posthumous grade is the political end attempting to make up for what they didn't do during someone's lifetime. When you mention that Yamashita's 10-dan was posthumous, I simply didn't believe it. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but if true, it is news to me. That is another reason for speaking with Mr. Murata, the curator of the Museum at the Kodokan. He isn't a bad sort on the phone, but writing to him sometimes is a lost cause depending on what it is you want. I've received email responses from him on the same day, and on others, I am still waiting.

They really want you to go there. It isn't expensive to work out, and you can arrange to stay at their hostel inside the building. Nothing is private, but it is inexpensive if compared even to a motel 6 here.

I like the history, too, now that my active days are limited to teaching, and a seminar I'm going to this week.

Mark

BTW: You can try through the link at the Kodokan.org site (http://www.kodokan.org). The contacts are listed there including the International connections.

PRehse
9th April 2001, 13:45
Thanks for all the replies Mark. The Kodokan link I have - the Montana link I'll have a look at.

Ben Reinhardt
9th April 2001, 16:23
Originally posted by PRehse



Just a quick question then - do all dan grades in Japan for Judo enimate from the Kodokan or is there a umbrella organization? You mentioned several schools.

Not all dan grades in Judo in Japan come from the Kodokan. My current instructor has his rank from what he calls the "western Japan Judo organization" (he told me the Japanese name but I can't pronounce it or spell it out).

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
9th April 2001, 16:56
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]Well, the Kodokan may be said to be "soke." The Kodokan ranks are by far the most "official," there is nothing which prevents others from grading judoka.

+++Ben Reinhardt+++
"Soake" as in very expensive is more like it. A rank card from the Kodokan will certainly be accepted at any Judo dojo I know of in the world.
++++++++++++++++++++++

In the US, there is the USJF, the original one, the USJA, and the umbrella organization US Judo or the USJI, US judo, incorporated. The USJF is by far the most conservative in its ranking, and follows pretty closely the Kodokan in the manner of doing it. They must approve all black belt nominations, but the IJF must approve the higher ranking, or those, say, who have the time in training, competition, age, and the "what have you done for me lately" kind of thing.

+++Ben R.+++
I've got a couple of issues with the above.

The USJF is not in my experience the most conservative in it's ranking policies or standards. I don't know if you could single out one organization as "most conservative". I consider the USJF rank promotion standards to be much easier (on paper, as published) than the standards we use in Louisiana (for example) (a USJI state governing body).

The IJF does NOT "approve" higher ranking for promotions in the USA. Each organization has it's own system, and I assure you, the IJF does not get involved. Fact is, the IJF only recoginizes USJI (National Governing Body) rank certificates for the purposes of qualification for international competition.
+++++++

The Kodokan doesn't interfere with this

+++Ben R.++
And it has no authority to do so, either.
+++++++++

, but a sandan teaching license from the Kodokan carries more weight say, than a rokudan from the USJA (don't jump on me, people. It is just an example), at least many have at least shodan from the Kodokan and may be godan or rokudan in the US.

+++++++Ben R.++++
Aren't a teaching license and rank two separate things ? Are you saying that some 23 or 24 year old sandan from Nittaidai or Tenri University is viewed by the Kodokan as being a better teacher than a (legitimate) rokyudan from a US organization ? If that's what the Kodokan thinks, then all I can say is their standards are pretty low for teaching certificates.
BTW, I'm not jumping on you !
+++++++++++++=

+++Ben R.+++
The Kodokan only recognizes for purposes of Kodokan rank promotions previous Kodokan gradings...period. We've been through all this on the Judo-L more than once.
+++++++++++++=

Anything above rokudan must be apporved by the IJF (unless you do your training in Japan at the Kodokan or other clubs associated).

++++Ben R.+++
Mark, with all due respect, where do you come up with this stuff ? The above paragraph is absolutely false. All three USA national organizations can promote to Judan if they want, with no interference from the Kodokan or IJF. The IJF issues rank certificates as the request of the various continental unions (such as the PJU, European Judo Union, etc). For example, I can requests, via USJI, a IJF rank certificate for sandan.

The IJF has no rank promotion system. The judan given to Palmer and Geesink were recognition for there huge contributions to Judo, and as such, were in a way honorary, albeit "official" having been granted by the IJF.
+++++++++++++



For example, the Kodokan has recently announced they will no longer be issuing licenses of judan anymore. The two newest judan are Anton Geesink and Charles Palmer, but it is the IJF which approved it. For Geesink, I am pretty sure he is rokudan with the Kodokan.

++++++++++Ben R.++++++++
See comments above regarding IJF.
++++++++++++++

Any higher than that, the minimum age is 110 years old.:)

++++Ben R.+++
And a large donation to the Kodokan ? '-)
++++++++++=

All in all, a grade in this country from the USJF, the oldest of the national bodies, is probably the one which a judoka would want to secure.

+++++++++Ben R.++++
Mark, please.....I've got shodan USJI, nidan USJF, and Sandan USJI. There's not really a whit of difference between those two as far as desireablility goes. The JI shodan was 3 times harder to get than the JF nidan, and the JI sandan was harder than both of the above combined in terms of techniques, knowledge, contribution, etc. It's all quite variable. The JA rank standards are quite thorough, as well.
++++++++++++++

You mentioned Judo-L. Steven R. Cunningham is graded to rokudan, last I checked, with the USJA, but when I wrote the USJF, they didn't have anything on file since he was graded shodan "sometime in the middle seventies, but that doesn't mean he isn't ranked with one of the other groups." That was a quote from them. They said the last they had on him was from the early nineties and hadn't received any requests to bump him higher than shodan. I went to the USJA, and he is rokudan, a "bronze" member (I'm really have no idea what that is) to boot. I got a kind of "grunt" from USJI. They didn't want to discuss it.

+++Ben R.+++
So why all the detective work on Steve ? Verrrry interesting, Mark. You sure went to a lot of trouble for that. JA has different levels of life membership, bronze, silver, gold, etc. The system was dreamed up by Phil Porter, as far as I know, and I a kind of marketing gimmick (NOT to belittle the very serious judoka that support the USJA !).

And the "grunt" remark about JI....come one Mark, we begin to see clearly where you sypmpathies lie...Steve C. doesn't hold any JI rank, Mark, as far as I know. Perhaps JI was respecting Steve's privacy ? Gee, what novel concept !
+++++++++++++++

This is all political. So many good judoka are unafilliated and still hold their dan grade for twenty years because of it. Trevor P. Leggett was, until his passing in August, 2000, was a rokudan with the Kodokan, but wouldn't play footsie, so he was that rank for more years than I've been alive, and that's a lot.
*****
+++Ben R.+++
Maybe I'm just feeling a bit contrary this morning, but please, it's not all political. No doubt, judo "politics" plays and has played a role in promotions around the world.

And if I ever make it to rokyudan I'll be amazed. But it will have to do with my ability, not politics. Otherwise I won't ever get there. In fact, I expect my terminal rank will be yondan, if not sandan. And that's fine with me.
++++++++++++++
Cordially,
Ben Reinhardt