How do attack a person when they are turtling during newaza?

[Jody Holeton]

Dear all,

Been trying to work on my Judo newaza. I recently fought against an opponent who just played turtle on me. He would flip to his stomache every time we fought and he would cross his hands into his collars so I couldn't choke him from the back.

How can I flip him?

What can I do to him legally in Judo from that turtle position?

In Jujitsu I would go after one of his knees or an ankle...

Can somebody give me some advice?

Thx, I appreciate any advice--Jody

[MarkF]

Hi, Jody,
Well, you can ignore him, making him the "bad guy" by waiting until he stands. It also depends on how much turtling he is doing (in a fetal postion, or does he have his legs together tight and straight out?).

You can still attempt the choke, whether or not it is succesfull, and assuming his legs are straight, then you can insert a hand, then a little more, between his legs, (from underneath, grasping the pant and begin to turn, even if his upper body isn't, the lower will either turn with you or against you, then you go with whichever way he is defending. If not going for the collar, then go for whatever you can grab of his upper body from underneath, or on his back, and lift, pull, or push, and then when you feel resistance, continue in the same direction. Fighting against him will tire you and probably will not have the desired effect. So you may insert the hand from underneath him between the legs and turn him away from you, or you might grab lift and push/turn him (or pull) to allow more of your arms inside to act as a crowbar of sorts.

And if it works, remember to stay low once you have turned him or he has turned himself, and roll him onto his back. Grabbing a hand or wrist is fine, too, attempting to apply ude garami.
*****

All that said, "turtles" are hard to get out of the shell. If it is an exercise, randori katami, relaxing, breathing correctly and going for the better way is preferable to just fighting the intention of not coming out. Think about it for a moment, then go for it. They can be turned. I've called osaekomi even with the lower body so twisted that the feet are resting on the tops, while the upper body, shoulders are on the mat. And both ways are extremely painful and tiring to uke.

Perhaps one of the ground grapplers has better advice? In fact, I am sure of it. Usually, I am the one trying to get out, or I am the turtle.:)

Mark

[Joseph Svinth]

Pinching and tickling are always worth trying, especially as they are essentially invisible to the referee.

[Kit LeBlanc]

I'd say repeatedly knee him in the head until he's unconscious, but you are talking Judo competition, so I think that might be illegal.

(heh heh heh)

I gather from you post that the old knee thru and over the back of his knee and knee crank is illegal as well.

Try this.. get to one his his sides, say he is turtling and you are on his right side, your chin and chest on his back....

reach underneath his chin with your right hand and grab his left wrist or arm, with your left hand grab his right pant leg...

pull up and roll him over, stay glued to him and you will get kesa gatame.

Kit

[MarkF]

Yes, OK, Guys! I was attempting something within the framework of the rules, but as much as I hate to admit it, Joe is right. Kit is even more right and it would work just fine.

Most judoka with tourmanent experience develope little "tricks" which are probably not within the framework of the rules, but I used to dig with a knuckle to get someone with a giant torso and tiny legs off me, and it generally worked. I used to think I was getting away with something until a conversation a long time ago concerning problems such as Toby's. Everyone did something illegal, but now that Joe let the cat out of the bag, it must be true that they were ignoring it, as I would have been bounced on my kiester for that kind of stuff done repeatedly.

But Kit did a better job of describing what I did half-assed, and those are pretty much your options.

Today, I would go ahead and do whatever you think best and see how far you can go with it.

If anyone else has a better way of shelling a turtle, I'd like to know, too. Today, they do it standing as well.

Mark

[Dojorat]

Greetins,

My Judo instructor was demonstrating methods of "munching" certain body parts (ie applying your weight to certain exposed limbs such as kneeling on the calf or leaning on the upper arm/back with an elbow) He mentioned that many of these techniques were illegal in competition. Later, AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THIS, in a private conversation, I questioned the "morality" of this instruction. My assumption was that illegal techniques got that classification because of the high risk of injury and was that in true spirit of fair competition. He very kindly and graciously accepted my question and explained that not all "illegal" techniques are necessarily risky and dangerous. In some cases, the illegality is brought about because the receiver can not resist the technique fairly by applying equavalent skill or technique. Therefore, certain techniques which are applied to certain vital points do not run the risk of permanently injuring but cause a reflexive response that is difficult if not impossible to defend. It is insights like these for which I'm always seeking experienced instruction.

He then demonstrated on me how using your chin and "digging" into the tissue just inside the scapula of a turtled opponent can help momentarily weaken the muscles in the chest holding the arm in tight. This makes it easier to extract the arm and execute an appropriate lock or other finishing technique.

I took that gem and stuck it inside my keikogi until opporknockity tuned.

Cheers,

[mujahid]

you might try shooting an arm under (same side right arm to right arm) the turtle's arm grasping their forearm. this will put you on your knees behind your opponent. then place your right knee on the back of your right elbow and move forward. Using the added leverage of your knee you should break your opponents lapel grip. keeping the arm you spin and sit with your backside in tight at your opponents head. You should now have an armbar. This will be difficult to hit against an experienced judoka but they will atleast have to move which should bring you other opportunities.

[TIM BURTON]

Hi,
I agree with Mark’s first comment, the best way to defeat the turtle in competition is to use the referee. There was an article written a while back that I recall. The guy was a coach and wanted to take a scientific and evidenced approach to coaching his players.
He watched footage of all the Judo at a particular Olympics and saw about 550 uses of the turtle position. Out of these 550 approx. bouts only 15 to 20 times was a scoring technique successfully applied, so only about 3%.
He noted that the 3% of successful attacks on this position comprised of securing a juji gatamae, turning the player over with a sankakku and turning a player over with a half nelson type hold.
The coach found that almost all of the successful techniques had one thing in common and that was the defenders elbow had to be pushed towards their ear thus putting them in a position of disadvantage.
He (the coach) concluded that as attempting to overturn the turtle in competition had a 93% of failure one should not try it unless ahead on points. He did not advocate that it was impossible only that his findings indicated a way forward when training to defeat this position.
I can not tell you more because that’s all I put down in my rough book, except I think his name was Weer.
This does not preclude the practise of numerous overturns in training or randori, but to re-iterate
Marks initial comment was quite profound on the subject.

[Stephenjudoka]

I have found that most Judoka defend their arms and neck when defending on the ground but they forget to defend their legs.

I use all sorts of legal turnovers using my partners legs.
I have found leg rides from wrestling very successful.
I have also found if you start working on your partners legs, they panic and forget their neck.

The club I belong to is well known for its groundwork and if you can turn someone over there you can do it at any club.

Try the legs and let me know how you get on.

Stephen Sweetlove

[Duke343]

Turtle-ing up is working the rules against the opponent. The "proper" thing to do is use atemi-waza directed to kidneys, head, etc... It will beat the turtle every time. BUT you are not allowed to strike.

He/she/it knows this and knows you probably can't turn them over, but they want you to try. It costs them nothing to rest while you struggle to overturn them.

Trying to beat the turtle is a waste of your energy, against the very principle of Judo. It's a strategic manuver to make you break the principle you have been training in. I never fall for it, if they turtle - I get up.

[kusanku]

Flop Your body across the Turtle crosswise, so that you pin his weight with yours, now reach your left arm under and through his left knee, reach your right arm under his left arm, flip him over in one move and get yoko shiho gatame, thought everyone knew this one, worked for me every time.

Takes a little practice but if you get that turtle flip down, under the shell they got nothing:D

[Jody Holeton]

Thanks everybody,

I will try out all these techniques ASAP!

Dear Kusanku,

I've tried that one a couple of times and I still have no luck with it. I'll keep on trying, maybe I need smaller teki.

Kusanku, are you going to the BIG Aikido list seminar in Indiana? Ohmi-sensei and Chuck Gordon will be there.

Thanks again--Jody

[kusanku]

Jody asks: 'Kusanku, are you going to the Big Aiki List seminar in Indiana?'

No, but some of my friends and training partners probably will be there.I'll no doubt hear and have described for me , all that occurs.:-)

Some of the Bloomington and Martinsville people will probably be there, including some of the Jiujitsu and chin na, Taiji people I work out with occasionally..

'had no luck with that one( technique I describe."

Sit seiza with your knees right under their right side then bow over them, hook under the knee, and the arm,then slide one knee then the other back, and straighten up as you flip them.

That might help.

Take Care

[Aiki Jeff]

Hi guys,

With respect to the turtle:

Straddle your turtle facing the same way as they are and get your hooks in with your heels. Get your right arm through his armpit and either hold onto his forearm or just leave it there. Do a front roll over your right shoulder, using your right leg to roll him with you. You can then use an arm lever to break his grip and apply jujigatame.

Or start with the same straddle, fall down on your left side in front of him, "Subtly" insinuate your calf under his forehead and just roll over onto your back...you may need to grab his pant leg and help him over but it works.


If shimewaza is more your bag, you can try a sangaku roll-out. They involve more facing your uke and getting a heel inbetween arms and hips, and then levering them around and applying sangakujime.

Or, collapse their legs backwards and apply hadakajime with you on top of uke.

Or try to get your hooks in, and then roll both of you to a side, and then try to work a choke around the lapel defense, by attacking the hands holding the lapels (getting a lever to pry them off etc.)

With respect to the statistics on success of the turtle, I think that's almost more a commentary on the level of officiating. Newaza is core technical judo, but boring to watch, hence promoters of the sport for the most part try to stand the fighters back up for the more flashy throws. Take time limits and referees out, and not only do you have dream randori and a great workout, but complete judo.

It's even more fun to be in a turtle and come out attacking!

Jeff Vance

[Aiki Jeff]

Hi guys,

With respect to the turtle:

Straddle your turtle facing the same way as they are and get your hooks in with your heels. Get your right arm through his armpit and either hold onto his forearm or just leave it there. Do a front roll over your right shoulder, using your right leg to roll him with you. You can then use an arm lever to break his grip and apply jujigatame.

Or start with the same straddle, fall down on your left side in front of him, "Subtly" insinuate your calf under his forehead and just roll over onto your back...you may need to grab his pant leg and help him over but it works.


If shimewaza is more your bag, you can try a sangaku roll-out. They involve more facing your uke and getting a heel inbetween arms and hips, and then levering them around and applying sangakujime.

Or, collapse their legs backwards and apply hadakajime with you on top of uke.

Or try to get your hooks in, and then roll both of you to a side, and then try to work a choke around the lapel defense, by attacking the hands holding the lapels (getting a lever to pry them off etc.)

With respect to the statistics on success of the turtle, I think that's almost more a commentary on the level of officiating. Newaza is core technical judo, but boring to watch, hence promoters of the sport for the most part try to stand the fighters back up for the more flashy throws. Take time limits and referees out, and not only do you have dream randori and a great workout, but complete judo.

It's even more fun to be in a turtle and come out attacking!

Jeff Vance

[Aiki Jeff]

Hi guys,

With respect to the turtle:

Straddle your turtle facing the same way as they are and get your hooks in with your heels. Get your right arm through his armpit and either hold onto his forearm or just leave it there. Do a front roll over your right shoulder, using your right leg to roll him with you. You can then use an arm lever to break his grip and apply jujigatame.

Or start with the same straddle, fall down on your left side in front of him, "Subtly" insinuate your calf under his forehead and just roll over onto your back...you may need to grab his pant leg and help him over but it works.


If shimewaza is more your bag, you can try a sangaku roll-out. They involve more facing your uke and getting a heel inbetween arms and hips, and then levering them around and applying sangakujime.

Or, collapse their legs backwards and apply hadakajime with you on top of uke.

Or try to get your hooks in, and then roll both of you to a side, and then try to work a choke around the lapel defense, by attacking the hands holding the lapels (getting a lever to pry them off etc.)

With respect to the statistics on success of the turtle, I think that's almost more a commentary on the level of officiating. Newaza is core technical judo, but boring to watch, hence promoters of the sport for the most part try to stand the fighters back up for the more flashy throws. Take time limits and referees out, and not only do you have dream randori and a great workout, but complete judo.

It's even more fun to be in a turtle and come out attacking!

Jeff Vance

[MarkF]

Before straddling the guy, make sure to put a knee down into the small, fleshy areas of the back first. Some react funny to the pain as they can't see it, then make your move especially if you want to do the roll out in to sankaku.

Mark

[Iain]

Just be patient and work your heels into his calves or kidneys until it becomes too uncomfortable and he loosens up and you can get your hooks in. Just be careful he doesn't catch you off balance and scoot out backwards. Alternatively, you could drag the offending person down to a pancrase club and smack him in the back of the head repeatedly until he learns his lesson :)

[Jody Holeton]

What is a pancrase club?

[Iain]

Pancrase is an NHB (no holds barred) fighting style. Needless to say, turtling won't do you much good if you're just gonna get elbowed in the back of the head. In fact, a good pounding does a very good job of breaking all of those irritating overly defensive ground positions (lying on your back with your hands in your gi, Etc.)

[dakotajudo]

One method I haven't seen posted yet I learned at a seminar given by my old sensei.

Simply, sit on his head.

You can then work on exposing an arm by attacking at the elbow and prying away from the body. Then you can attempt juji-gatame, or grap the collar from between the arm (through the armpit) and turn over.


You want to stay loose, so that if the turtle raises his hips you can change your attack.

If you haven't washed your gi for a while this attack especially affective if he turns his head the right direction.

Peter

[Jody Holeton]

Dear Mr. Richardson,

Thanks for the info. Nothing like percussion and weapons messing up good tournament defenses eh? Hissen Judo, ya gotta love it!


By the way, why the Chomsky quote? Are you a Linguist major like myself? TESOL?

Later--Jody