PDA

View Full Version : Sanchin Kata: Health or Hazard?



Michael Patterson
8th April 2001, 05:06
Colleagues,

I have seen several posts on this Board and elsewhere which have questioned the appropriateness of the Goju Ryu kata Sanchin with respect to the deep, forced breathing associated with its practice. Simply put, some feel it is a risky, and dangerous exercise and that the forced breathing may lead to undue stress on the heart, higher than necessary blood pressure, and other cardio-pulmonary stress.

I have been a goju ryu practitioner for about 6 years now and have been taught Sanchin as it was taught by Chojun Myagi to Meitoku Yagi and on to his students. In our school we have a saying that, "Sanchin Kata is the first kata you learn, the last one you perfect". The implication is that it is a very complex, yet vital component of the Goju Ryu school and its components and subtleties are not to be taken lightly nor easily mastered.

The complexity of this kata were emphasized to me when it was first introduced to my training, at white belt. There has been a gradual and progressive degree of complexity and intricacy added as my training has continued and now, as a shodan I am beginning to understand a few of the basic principles which make Sanchin such a valuable component of our curriculum. However, it should be noted that Sanchin kata, particularly the breathing, has always been taught in our dojo in great detail and with significant care to ensure the physical well being of our students. As a core component of our art, Sanchin is taught early yet progressively to match the physical and mental development of the student.

When taught progressively, by a master instructor, as a fundamental and complimentary component of an entire martial art curriculum I believe Sanchin kata becomes not only a valuable exercise, but represents the very soul of Goju Ryu Karatedo.

I would be interested to know your thoughts on Sanchin and its value for the practising karate martial artist.

Michael Patterson

MarkF
8th April 2001, 10:13
I know nothing of goju, but over the years the first thing forgotten is how to breathe normally. In and out. Then to relax and center.

Beginners forget to breathe out of fear, panic, and plain nervousness and if not reminded to breathe sometimes it has an effect on overall health.

I usually start a class in some minor forms of kata. This, for one thing, isn't that stressful, and is the time to influence the student into relaxing. They go together. During randori, centering is another subject, but it is better to start them on the basics of the hara than waiting until all the bad habits become a reflex. Changing the reflex so as not to hold one's breath, or breathing too quickly is basic, something most can grasp, at the same time, it is a never-ending quest.

Nothing is easy nor is one thing more important than the other, but the basics are never-ending.

There are some goju practitioners on the forums here, so you probably will get better responses on that question than from an old judoka!:D

Mark

BTW: It may be a good idea to post this in karate forum as well. Just don't over do it with the double or triple posts.

Oh, yes, and Welcome to E-budo!:wave:

Mark

Michael Patterson
10th April 2001, 04:28
Mark,
Thanks for the welcome. Once I figure out the techno-stuff and learn now to re-post to other forums within e-budo I'll try to pass this post over to the Karate folks. BTW you may recall, we had a spirited discussion concerning roots, origins and purpose behind the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai few months ago over on the Budo Kai message board. Its good to know that such passionate and interested members are on this site ready and willing to share ideas, research, opinions, advice and encouragement. I look forward to continued valuable discussions here.

All the best,
Mike

Joseph Svinth
10th April 2001, 09:06
I think that part of the problem that people can have with sanchin is trying too hard. The sanchin can be pleasant, a form of meditation, or it can be preparatory to passing out. Having been both places, I am happy to say that I prefer the former to the latter.

Another potential problem is mistaking the outer (noise, tension, etc.) for the inner. Like any kata, sanchin works on different levels simultaneously, and by focusing solely on the breathing, you can lose sight of some of the lessons to be learned through analysis of movement.

So as Mark says, breathe, center, and relax, and after awhile, everything else follows.

From a literary standpoint, the Goju Ryu descriptions taught by Morio Higaonna (to me) make sense. His videos are also worth viewing. On the other hand, I am much less comfortable with the descriptions shown in books by Mas Oyama or that used to be taught by the Goju Kai. (These methods may have changed over the past 15 years or so, and as a result I stress the "used to be taught" portion.)

MarkF
10th April 2001, 10:17
Hi, Michael,
Sure, I remember, and welcome to the underbelly of the beast.:D

I remember because some of the information I received came, at least in part, from the fella's website posted above mine, so you did get good information even if you didn't agree.

The rest was the need to set off some firecrackers on my part.:)

Mark

Kevin73
13th April 2001, 06:29
Having learned and practiced Sanchin kata for 7 yrs now. I have always been interested in reading about other styles versions and methods of it. I have seen 2 methods for the breathing that is taught.

1) Inhale and then exhale while tensing the muscles, just like you would while lifting a heavy object.

2) Inhale and then HOLD the breath while tensing the muscles.

The second method is the one that is bad for you and causes problems (passing out, etc). I have also heard that practicing Sanchin kata will give you hemmoroids (not joking either) although I have never experienced anything negative at all from the practice.

Hope this helps out some.

OldRonin
13th April 2001, 07:28
The "ibuki breathing" technique of sanchin kata can create several ill effects on the body (eventually becoming permanent damage). However, I can attest to the practice of proper ibuki breathing can enhance your physical condition and muscular coordination. I have been practicing sanchin with ibuki breathing for over 20 years, and have not developed emphysema, hemorroids, cerebral edema (brain swelling), or pulmonary hypertension.

I have had graduate level study in anatomy and physiology, and I give anesthesia professionally, so my comments hear can be taken as having basis in scientific understanding of how the body works.

The problem with improper sanchin comes when too much back pressure is allowed to be placed on the lungs. This occurs when the glottis (opening through the larynx) is too tightly closed during exhalation, and if the glottis is closed fully at the end while you continue to contract your chest well muscles.

One indicator of putting too much back-pressure on the lungs can be seen if you practice sanchin facing a mirror. If you continue to hold your breath at the end, or if you exhale too slowly thru too tight of a throat, you will notice your neck veins begin to bulge. A little bulging is OK, but if you neck veins continue to bulge bigger, you are putting too much back pressure on the lungs.

Excess back pressure causes at least three adverse effects: damage to tiny lung air sacs, an over-stretching of veins in the body, an acute reduction in cardiac output.

1) Prolonged back pressure on the lungs stretches out the alveoli (tiny air sacs) beyond their normal limits. Eventually, the tiny elastic fibers that promote the resiliency of the lung tissue become overstretched and/or ruptured. This leaves the lungs with less elasticity overall, and the alveoli do not empty properly as one exhales. What you are doing is creating a case of emphysema, just like long-time smokers get. (BTW, long time pot smokers who take huge breaths in and hold their breathe forcefully to try and get more drug dissolved in their blood stream are doing even worse damage to their lungs).

2) When you continue to put too much pressure inside the chest cavity, the blood that is attempting to return to the heart cannot enter the chest cavity, because the pressure from the overdone ibuki has caused the intra-thoracic pressure to remain above the pressure present in the venous system. The blood backs up into the veins, some directly back up into your brain (which can make you brain swell), and some backs up into the veins surrounding the anus (which when done repeatedly over years can cause hemorrhoids, which are stretched out veins around the anus and inside the lower rectum.

3) The prolonged exhalation activates the reflexes in the vagus nerve, which slows the heart rate. While this is not necessarily bad, when you combine a slowing of the heart rate with the inability of blood to return to the heart because the chest cavity pressure is too high, you get a dramatic reduction in the output of the heart. When the cardiac output drops below a critical threshold, blood is no longer being pumped up into the brain, and you get dizzy and/or pass out. Of course, as soon as you fall down, cardiac output begins to rise again, the brain gets the oxygen it needs, and you wake up.

A little addendum here: If you perform the sanchin muscular contraction too hard and fast, especially if you apply too much kime at the and, you can rupture the tiny ratchets inside the muscle fibers. I know the strength trainers say that this is what builds muscle bulk, but it does not (IMHO) lead to any increase your strength. Moderately hard contraction is OK, but too much "snap" or sudden overly-forceful kime at the end will cause these ruptures.

On the positive side, properly done sanchin can dramatically increase the power you can deliver with your strikes, because you learn how to recruit an ever-increasing cascade of muscle fibers into your arms and torso, which together allow you to deliver a crescendo of maximum energy to the target on impact.

So, my advice after my twenty some years of doing this is to practice your sanchin daily, but do so with moderate intensity, never hold your breathe at the end of exhalation, and if you are getting dizzy when during or immediately after sanchin, ease up on the way you do it so that you don't feel any pressure changes in your head at any time in the cycle.


It is my hope that an understanding of the underlying physiology of sanchin can help you sustain your training over the decades while continuing to promote the health of the body, and avoid doing any damage to yourself, which defeats the purposes of our training.


Good luck with your training.

Michael Patterson
14th April 2001, 05:28
Dr. Evans et al,

I appreciate the thoughtful and informative comments on the practice of sanchin. The particular breathing technique taught in our dojo emphasizes a moderate breathing strength facilitated by a very specific rhythm dictated by the sequential tightening and loosening of one's muscles, from the ends of our toes gripping the floor right, out through the controlled punch/press technique and back. Our instructors diligently watch for breathing which is too forced, held too long, or out of sequence such that the rhythm of the kata is lost. The practitioner who's face turns too white, or indeed too red, is cautioned to return to 'normal' breathing for the remainder of the kata or told to stop and is supervised until proper face colour returns.

Sanchin kata represents the essence of goju ryu karate do. As such it MUST be taught and practiced with the utmost respect for the proper execution of the pattern of physical movement, and the rhythmical deep breathing which expands and contracts the chest/abdomen/tanden such that the significant physical benefits may be realized. This combination must concurrently be tempered with an understanding of the consequences of improper sanchin perfornace.

Michael Patterson

Jerry O'Brien
16th April 2001, 01:55
Originally posted by OldRonin
The "ibuki breathing" technique of sanchin kata can create several ill effects on the body (eventually becoming permanent damage).

....Prolonged back pressure on the lungs stretches out the alveoli (tiny air sacs) beyond their normal limits. Eventually, the tiny elastic fibers that promote the resiliency of the lung tissue become overstretched and/or ruptured. This leaves the lungs with less elasticity overall, and the alveoli do not empty properly as one exhales....


...If you perform the sanchin muscular contraction too hard and fast, especially if you apply too much kime at the and, you can rupture the tiny ratchets inside the muscle fibers...


Hmmmm:

Interesting! Dr Evans, is there any data to support these statements or is it all theoretical? I mean , what you are saying is that this sort of breathing can lead to restrictive lung disease and respiratory muscle myopathy. Am I not correct?

Gerald O'Brien, MD.

OldRonin
17th April 2001, 23:21
Dr. O'Brien

What I am saying is that repeated barotrauma from overly vigorous Valsalva maneuvers generated from improper ibuki breathing of sanchin may result in restrictive lung damage. The muscle damage I refer to is not to the respiratory muscles specifically, but to the repeated muscle pulls and strains from overly vigorous isometric contractions. I have drawn these conclusions from numerous sources over the years, medical literature as well as anecdotal reports in sports medicine publications and martial arts research regarding dynamic tension. If you want more details, we can go over this in private email.


In Mark Bishop's book "Okinawan Karate" 2nd Ed. (Tuttle Press) he notes that many Okinawan practitioners believe Goju training methods utilizing dynamic tension contribute to health problems, particularly in trainees over age 40. It is of interest that Miyagi-sensei died at age 65 of an intracranial bleed.

Jerry O'Brien
18th April 2001, 01:55
Hello Dr Evans:

I have heard the same remarks from fellow Shorin Ryu stylists and have searched for any and all evidence in support of these beliefs. Since my area of specialization and research is in pulmonary diseases, more specifically, restrictive lung diseases, I am really interested in any published case reports, case series or other published medical references you might be aware of regarding this topic.

Now on the other hand, if these are your own personal medical observations, then I would like to know about these cases as they should be reported and published.

I have done my own literature search on OVID and Medline and have found no evidence of IBUKI Breathing (Isometric diaphragmatic breathing) as being harmful. I am aware of case reports of power weight lifters suffering pulmonary barotrauma caused by acute elevations in alveolar airway pressures during valsalva. This is not analogous. During Ibuki exhalation the glottis is open and I would expect only a minimal rise in alveolar airway pressure, about the same as exhaling through pursed lips and much less than just before a KIAI. Forceful contraction of the diaphragm and abdominal wall muscles at total lung capacity and continued through exhalation has its primary effect by squeezing the intraabdominal contents, causing a modest rise in gastric pressure that is reflected in the pleural space. How elevated pleural pressure can lead to parenchymal lung disease is beyond me. But again maybe I’ve missed something.

As for Miyagi suffering from an intracranial bleed at age 65……yeah I heard that too.

Regards,

Gerald M. O’Brien, MD
Associate Professor Medicine
Temple University School of Medicine

Rob Alvelais
18th April 2001, 15:12
Originally posted by OldRonin
Dr. O'Brien


In Mark Bishop's book "Okinawan Karate" 2nd Ed. (Tuttle Press) he notes that many Okinawan practitioners believe Goju training methods utilizing dynamic tension contribute to health problems, particularly in trainees over age 40. It is of interest that Miyagi-sensei died at age 65 of an intracranial bleed.

Shouldn't it also be noted that Meitoku Yagi died into his 80's. Other of Mr. Miyagi's students passed after living well into old age. (especially when life span expectations for a group of people born and living in Okinawa from the first part of the 20th Century are considered) Furthermore, might the ravages of war in Okinawa during WWII affect expectations of longevity, (aside from the obvious results of a bomb landing on you)?
Weren't life expectancies pretty short even for those born in the US at the same time as Miyagi was born?

Wouldn't conclusions that respiratory disease were brought on by sanchin training would be speculative, at best, considering the propensity of people of that era to smoke?

OldRonin
18th April 2001, 18:21
OK, you want to continue this discussion. I'm concerned that some may be confused by which direction we are going here, (pro-v.con sanchin) so I want to make a few statements of clarification.

First, addressing the question of what breathing has to do with the inside of your head. In a nutshell, it is this: Anytime the pressure in the chest rises to a very high pressure (such as during a stifled sneeze, a powerful lifting exertion with a closed glottis, etc., there is a concomitant rise in the pressure inside the cranium, as reflected by a wave of back-pressure up the veins that drain the head. Thus, if you go to lift a very heavy weight, and you keep your throat shut, and continue your grunting kind of lift, the pressure inside your head rises. The longer you hold your breath, the higher the pressure goes. (This is a somewhat simplistic explanation, because I don't have the time to go into all the details at the moment, and because this is not the main point of this posting, so please don't flame me for leaving out some of the more sophisticated details of arterial vs. venous pressure, intracranial compliance, etc.)

Now, if you hold your breath, but don't tighten your chest and abdominal muscles, or; you tighten your chest and abdominal muscles but let the air escape out of your throat as you do, this doesn't happen. Breathing freely allows blood to continue circulating into and out of the heart and chest cavity unimpeded, so there are no excess pressure build-ups
back into the body or head.

Lesson: Never hold your breath for any length of time beyond a few moments during an exertion.
Of course, I don't know of any martial breathing techniques that involve prolonged breath-holding, so I think what we are talking about is "improper" breathing anyway, but one of many reasons why breath-holding is bad technique.

On to Sanchin, Miyagi, Goju, etc.

The following statements are my considered opinions, based on my perhaps incomplete knowledge of all facts, but this is what I think, if anyone is interested. (This is a discussion forum, after all.)

Regarding Miyagi-sensei. I have read Miyagi died of a brain hemorrhage. I don't know what kind of bleed it was, so I cannot do much speculation of how his training methods or lifestyle may have been involved. But, I will assume that Miyagi of all people would know proper Sanchin, and I don't think his Goju training contributed in any way to his premature death. In fact, his martial arts training may have helped him NOT to die 20 years sooner. I will assume his training made him healthier.

I have had hands-on training and testing of my Sanchin and ibuki breathing from Gogen Yamaguchi himself. IMHO, what Yamaguchi-sensei showed me as the proper methods of doing this (and of testing the sanchin practitioner) is a good thing for your body and mind.

IMHO, Sanchin (with ibuki done correctly, of course), is a health-promoting part of your training. I think it is good for you, and can also enhance your martial training by developing you ability to utilize your entire body in a coordinated rhythm between the torso and the limbs. Is it all you need, of course not, but it's a good thing to practice, and I still do every day, just as I have for the past 25 years. I like doing it, because it makes me feel better and think better and move better afterwards.

On the flip side. Sanchin done incorrectly is a bad thing for you. How bad it is depends on how hard you do it bad. Breathing like a constipated hippopotamus contributes to poor body-limb-mind coordination, and may disturb your inner physiology. Exactly how depends on what you are doing wrong in your sanchin.

Bottom line: Good Sanchin is good, mediocre Sanchin is just a useless time-waster, really bad sanchin may hurt you a little. You won't blow out your lungs or your brain, or do any type of long-lasting damage unless you work really, really hard and long doing it badly as hard as you can for years. It is highly unlikely to kill you.

So, if you are going to do Sanchin, try to learn it from a teacher who was trained by someone as close to the original sources as you can get.

In my opinion, the following may help you decide if you are doing your Sanchin well:

If practicing your sanchin makes you feel real bad afterwards, you probably did it wrong. If you feel stronger, more focused, and more ready to continue training with good strong and smooth tai sabaki after your Sanchin, you are probably doing it OK.

BTW, I think Sanchin is just one of many methods that can enhance your training and contribute to the development of strength, resiliency, harmonious mind-body coordination, and overall martial skill and effectiveness.
It is useful, but not essential. You can train a a perfectly good karateka without practicing sanchin. If you like having it in your training regimen, keep it up, just remember to always take care to always do it right. Just because you know how to do it right, doesn't mean you will do it right naturally. You have to pay attention to what you are doing. Kaizen!

Rant over. I hope the injection of my personal opinions on this matter contributes to a healthy and enjoyable discussion for you all.

Michael Patterson
19th April 2001, 03:12
Mr. Alvelais,

For the record, it should be noted that Dai Sensei Meitoku Yagi is, from all recent reports, alive and well and living in Okinawa...in his 90th year! As the direct inheritor of the Goju Ryu school ( I know, I know... this comment can start an entirely new and considerably more emotionally charged discussion) following Chojun Miyagi's untimely death, he has practiced and taught sanchin kata and its associated breathing techiniques his entire adult life. Give his advanced age and reported physical vigor, it seems that he has not suffered ill effects from, as Dr. Obrien notes, "Good Sanchin".

IMHO and through my limited experience, sanchin, as with many karate exercices and techniques, if well taught, based upon sound fundamentals, and reinforced/corrected/monitored by qualified instructors, then this will lead to improved performance and enhanced physical well being.

Michael Patterson

Rob Alvelais
19th April 2001, 07:06
Originally posted by Michael Patterson
Mr. Alvelais,

For the record, it should be noted that Dai Sensei Meitoku Yagi is, from all recent reports, alive and well and living in Okinawa...in his 90th year!
Michael Patterson


Well, I'm very glad to hear that. I hope that he continues to do well .


Rob Alvelais