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Yamantaka
8th April 2001, 15:25
To all Ki-Aikido friends in this Forum

Why do ki-aikidoka perform small "jumps" when doing some techniques? What's the reason?
Curious

szczepan
9th April 2001, 00:00
Originally posted by Yamantaka
To all Ki-Aikido friends in this Forum

Why do ki-aikidoka perform small "jumps" when doing some techniques? What's the reason?
Curious

I'll guess........KI explosions? :D

PRehse
9th April 2001, 00:40
You Szczepan - are disgusting.





Originally posted by szczepan


I'll guess........KI explosions? :D

Yamantaka
9th April 2001, 11:11
Szczepan suggested that the "jumps" might be due to "gases" (or so I understood) and PRehse joked on it :


Originally posted by PRehse
You Szczepan - are disgusting.


YAMANTAKA : I say...Now, Now, Kids, time to go to bed! :nono:
(And by the way, Peter...Szczepan isn't disgusting. He's acting according with his nature... :rolleyes: )

Returning to my question : Are any ki-aikido practitioners able to explain the reasons for the "jumps" done with the techniques? I'll be very interested in knowing the technical reasons for that.
Best

szczepan
9th April 2001, 17:03
Originally posted by Yamantaka
Szczepan suggested that the "jumps" might be due to "gases" (or so I understood) and PRehse joked on it :



YAMANTAKA : I say...Now, Now, Kids, time to go to bed! :nono:
(And by the way, Peter...Szczepan isn't disgusting. He's acting according with his nature... :rolleyes: )

Returning to my question : Are any ki-aikido practitioners able to explain the reasons for the "jumps" done with the techniques? I'll be very interested in knowing the technical reasons for that.
Best

U guys, you reding far too much between lines :P

It is very natural, when you keep one point and take care about your inner child KI is accumulated in HARA. So with explosion of this KI you create anti-gravity and it allows you to jump!
Otherwise you rely your aikido only on strenth and muscles.

Yamantaka
9th April 2001, 22:30
Originally posted by szczepan

U guys, you reding far too much between lines :P
It is very natural, when you keep one point and take care about your inner child KI is accumulated in HARA. So with explosion of this KI you create anti-gravity and it allows you to jump!
Otherwise you rely your aikido only on strenth and muscles.

YAMANTAKA : O Unpronounceable One, you always surprise me! I never imagined that you had such knowledge of theory and such erudition. And, poor me, I imagined you were just concerned with practice...;)
Anyway, O Pit of Wisdom, since you are not a Ki-Aikidoka, I respectfully ask you to clear this thread, since other people may wish to answer :shot:
Unless, of course, it's a case of love and you can't stay away from me... :kiss:
Back to bed, Kiddie :nono:

ShowMeThatAgain
11th April 2001, 17:07
i remember having a conversation about this with a friend of mine a few years ago. he had done some aikido (got to 2nd dan), although it wasn't ki aikido, and a lot of tai chi.

he said that the jumps were put in where you'd use a kick to a vital (or perhaps just painful) location exposed by the technique that was being performed.

i'd be interested to know if he was correct.

autrelle
11th April 2001, 17:48
my understanding is that the jumps were something added when the shorter japanese practicioner was training with the much taller americans. i saw an instructional tape that showed the application of this to shomenuchi iriminage. nage leaped in to the rear of uke, the jump giving him a sufficiently deep entry, and while in mid-jump, he placed his hands on uke's shoulders, so that his own downward momentum helped to break uke's posture.

i could be wrong about this.

truly

BC
11th April 2001, 20:40
While I don't know the definitive answer to this one, I think Mr. Holland's explanation makes the most sense. As a relatively short person in a dojo with some pretty tall practitioners, there have been times where I've had to perform an entry similar to jumping just to close the distance for a deep entry to uke's rear on iriminage.

By the way, does anyone else find it slightly humorous and coincidental that this topic has popped up the week before Easter (as in "aikibunnies")? :D

SimonW11
12th April 2001, 21:30
In the ikkyo I was shown there was a hop by tori at the point where uke could put his front hand down to become stable. this I was told unbalanced uke.

Hows the High grade list doing Ubaldo? includedBob Forrest- Web on yet
Ubaldo? He is the British Team team coach BTW.

Simon

Yamantaka
13th April 2001, 00:03
Originally posted by SimonW11
In the ikkyo I was shown there was a hop by tori at the point where uke could put his front hand down to become stable. this I was told unbalanced uke.

YAMANTAKA : One thing worries me...To jump is to lose contact with the ground, to become unbalanced. There are other ways to meet an attack by a higher uke, instead of jumping. Let's hear more opinions.

Hows the High grade list doing Ubaldo? includedBob Forrest- Web on yet
Ubaldo? He is the British Team team coach BTW.
Simon

YAMANTAKA : Hey, it isn't easy, Man! I'm waiting for some replies.Contrary to what some people think, I'm very exigent on who I post on that list. But I'll try to do some work on it until the end of this month. Thank you for asking. I see that you are enjoying it.
Best

SimonW11
13th April 2001, 03:07
YAMANTAKA : One thing worries me...To jump is to lose contact with the ground, to become unbalanced. There are other ways to meet an attack by a higher uke, instead of jumping. Let's hear more opinions.


Well at the point where they showed it. uke was definately shorter... he would have one hand on the ground. Just at the point when a knee in the armpit becomes likely. for who ever said it can signal a kick:^)
it does off balance uke and being the air does not mean you are off balanced yourself. However it must surely make you vunerable to a sweep from uke.

why no comments from Ki people has
Szczepan frightened them off?
Simon

Gil Gillespie
13th April 2001, 04:17
My association with Ki Society aikido is only as a visitor to seminars and occasional "cross-trainer" over the years. The "jump" referred to here has long been called "the Tohei Hop." Koichi Tohei would impliment this hop into his technique not to gain any kind of height, but more as Autrelle described, seeking to quicken the glide of his irimi, but even more importantly to add power to the crank of his technique. The hop is not a languid soaring jump per se, but more a hard skip, which incorporates the velocity of one's center coming down to the mat going simultaneously into the technique. In the proper aiki synthesis of timing, leverage, and center the effect can be devastating. My teeth are still rattling!

Yamantaka
13th April 2001, 12:57
Hello, Gil!

Thank you very much for your post. I think you have come closer to a reasonable explanation.
I really can't understand why no ki-aikido practitioners have answered this thread. I can't believe they have been frightened by the Unpronounceable One :saw: :)
Come on, guys! Won't the Ki-Society people please take a stand and explain this thing to us? :look:
Best


Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
My association with Ki Society aikido is only as a visitor to seminars and occasional "cross-trainer" over the years. The "jump" referred to here has long been called "the Tohei Hop." Koichi Tohei would impliment this hop into his technique not to gain any kind of height, but more as Autrelle described, seeking to quicken the glide of his irimi, but even more importantly to add power to the crank of his technique. The hop is not a languid soaring jump per se, but more a hard skip, which incorporates the velocity of one's center coming down to the mat going simultaneously into the technique. In the proper aiki synthesis of timing, leverage, and center the effect can be devastating. My teeth are still rattling!

SimonW11
13th April 2001, 20:33
Something that I think it reveals is the way ki aikido does not associate being centred with being rooted the way say Yoshinkan does.

Simon

Gil Gillespie
14th April 2001, 15:05
Hi Simon

I've never experienced Yoshinkan but in my sampling of various aikido styles (my own Aikikai ASU of Saotome Sensei, Ki Society, Mochizuki Sensei's Yoseikan hombu in Japan, a couple unaffiliated styles) Ki Society spends more class time on rooted hara exercises than any other I've ever seen. At least their dojo here in Orlando did when I trained frequently with them in the old days. . .

SimonW11
14th April 2001, 20:06
Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
Hi Simon

I've never experienced Yoshinkan but in my sampling of various aikido styles (my own Aikikai ASU of Saotome Sensei, Ki Society, Mochizuki Sensei's Yoseikan hombu in Japan, a couple unaffiliated styles) Ki Society spends more class time on rooted hara exercises than any other I've ever seen. At least their dojo here in Orlando did when I trained frequently with them in the old days. . .

Hmm yes but I have the feeling that in ki society rooting starts at the centre and expands out to the feet while in some styles it starts at the feet and radiates up.
as Kanetsuka said "ki comes from the big toe."

or to quote Total aikido.
"The trick to concentrated power is in the big toe.
when we fix the big toe to the floor power comes to the hips. to that power you can add the accerleration of the spring action of the knees."

ie i feel Ki society connects centre to hips to to knees to feet while yoshinkan starts feet and heads up to the centre.

Ron Tisdale
16th April 2001, 20:57
I agree with the statements about the yoshinkan working from the big toe up. It was recently stressed in a seminar I attended.

I don't know if ki society is all that different. I attended a seminar by Terry Pierce Sensei some time ago, and he seemed to stress the ballance on the toes for most of the ki type exercises and techniques that he worked with that day. Looking back, though there were differences in the stances, there were some startling similarities as well.

It was also recently pointed out to me that Shioda Sensei is seen to "hop" a bit in some of the videos of him. He also seemed to be able to transfer power to his ukes by going up on his toes. Not having seen the vids yet myself, I just relaying the information, of course.

Ron Tisdale

Stefan Borchers
20th April 2001, 00:24
Good morning!

Back to the jump question....

For a few years I was on the last Seminar with the presence of Master André Nocquet. One unit was given from his first and former student, Master Chohepee (I don't kwon if this is the right spelling of this frensh name)! He is now a teacher in Ki Aikido. He explained, that one of the sourcees of "Aikido Power" is - to be relaxed.... so the jumps and the slack movements are (from his point of view) the expression of this source or the other way round.... you can lern to use this power with the jumping exersises! :wave:

great respect for the Ki jumpers from me.... but it is more my way to stay on the ground

:smilejapa

Lenny Rede
26th April 2001, 12:04
having trained with sensei's who trained with (or by) Tohei sensei it was always explained as a way to move uke's center.

The story as told to me was that when O'sensei sent Tohei america, he (Tohei) when training with some uncooperative big Gaijin would do this hop ( my sensei's refered to it as 'cowboy bob'). Being as that I am about Tohei size myself I have found that this acually works pretty well ( especially in Kaiten nage).

today I feel, this is mostly a vestigial Meme. We will duplicate our sensei's, sometimes including things that are not neccessary to execute a technique, simply because that was what we saw or were taught.

this isn't neccesarly bad per se... but, my feeling is that I want to apply a technique with as little effort and energy as needed to effectively execute said technique. if I can do it without hopping, I will.

Leonar Rede

The Piranah
11th May 2001, 12:10
I do aikido - both traditional and ki. The reason as far as i understand it for using jumps is sometimes Uke is taller than you so to do the move correctly you do have to jump to reach, say, thier shoulder, in the Ki style...... Other times its to move thier center. If you are all bouncy as it were, then that shifts Ukes energy too