A couple questions for those more scholarly than myself

[zach]

I was wondering about a couple of things, mainly the origin
of these kata specifically, ive got a rough idea, but not exact.

The Heians -How they came to be from the Pinans, what you think the roots of the Pinans are, since i was always told they were "created" sometime fairly modern for the purpose of "PE" classes for Okinawan schoolchildren.

Geki Sai

Tekki - specifically would like to know how these came to be taken from the Naihanchi series. and what everyones opinions are on the stylistic origin of the Naihanchi kata.

And on

Wankan
Rohai
Empi.

thanks.

[kusanku]

Questions, questions.

Answers:The Heians are the Pinans, not much difference except the numbers of one and two were switched for Heians and back stance replaced cat stance, and so on.

Best guess I have is that those who say heian/Pinan came from Kusanku kata,with maybe some moves out of chinto and passai, and like that, are correct.Earlier name for Pinans was channan. Itosu created these,far as we know.1901-1906 was time period and they were created to teach middle school kids karate since the naihanchi series was deemed too difficult to do as a beginner kata by children.

Gekisai_created by Chojun Miyagi, and the first fukyu gata created by Nagamine Shoshin, working together to create universal kata usable by Okinawan grade school children.

The Tekki Are the Naihanchi series, period.Not a whole lot of difference except in Matsubayashi's, which are from the earlier Uku Giko lineage. Tekkis and later Naihanchi's are Itosu modified kata.

What their stylistic origin is, no one knows.Having an opinion here would be dust in the wind, if you can't back it up with a fact, even one fact.

So far, no one can.Southern Chinese styles have similar drills, but that is all you can say.

Wankan, rohai, empi( wanshu in original) are all tomari te kata and maybe closely related,came originally from the Tomari village area. No one knows but legends abound.They may be pretty old.

History is interesting and can show us earlier forms of a technique, but beyond that, skill in basics and kata and self defense is more important thatn absolute historical knowledge of origins of each kata. Okinawan masters who should know, say that the origins of these earlier forms are not really known.

Best I got.

[zach]

Originally posted by kusanku
Questions, questions.

Answers:The Heians are the Pinans, not much difference except the numbers of one and two were switched for Heians and back stance replaced cat stance, and so on.



Best guess I have is that those who say heian/Pinan came from Kusanku kata,with maybe some moves out of chinto and passai, and like that, are correct.Earlier name for Pinans was channan. Itosu created these,far as we know.1901-1906 was time period and they were created to teach middle school kids karate since the naihanchi series was deemed too difficult to do as a beginner kata by children.

***
I read he just created Shodan and Godan, is that correct? The Kusanku thing is interesting, having never done kusanku though, so I dont have a frame of reference, so I will look for a version to ponder, though I don't think my skills are up to performing it just yet:)


Gekisai_created by Chojun Miyagi, and the first fukyu gata created by Nagamine Shoshin, working together to create universal kata usable by Okinawan grade school children.

The Tekki Are the Naihanchi series, period.Not a whole lot of difference except in Matsubayashi's, which are from the earlier Uku Giko lineage. Tekkis and later Naihanchi's are Itosu modified kata.
***
Ahhh, that answers the question I was going to ask about the Matsubayashi-ryu version, heheh.



What their stylistic origin is, no one knows.Having an opinion here would be dust in the wind, if you can't back it up with a fact, even one fact.
***
Yeah, thats why I asked about the naihanchi series, i've seen many different styles practice similar kata,some completely outside of Okinawan karate; but alas, it seems their origin is lost to time:)


So far, no one can.Southern Chinese styles have similar drills, but that is all you can say.

Wankan, rohai, empi( wanshu in original) are all tomari te kata and maybe closely related,came originally from the Tomari village area. No one knows but legends abound.They may be pretty old.

***
Now Empi is simply Funakoshi's modified Wanshu correct? Main reason I asked about these is that they seem to differ immensely from style to style (the version we pratcice is unusual), and they seem overtly "Gongfu-ish" to me. Or Wu-Shu-ish, or whatever the correct term would be.



From the perspective of

History is interesting and can show us earlier forms of a technique, but beyond that, skill in basics and kata and self defense is more important thatn absolute historical knowledge of origins of each kata. Okinawan masters who should know, say that the origins of these earlier forms are not really known.

I completely agree with the basic skills thing, and thank you for answering my questions, I appreciate it.

-Zach Z

Best I got.

[kusanku]

As to your further questions:Opinions vary as to which Pinan or Naihanchis Itosu created and which he merely rearranged.

Lacking documentation on any of this, we will likely never know for certain.

As for Empi, yes, that is Funakoshi's version of Wanshu, long version, similar to but not identical with Matsubayashi ryu version.

All I have on that.