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dainippon99
9th April 2001, 23:36
on nother forum, a question was asked regarding bruce klickstein. it was never answered and i was wondering waht you guys knew. Apparently, he is reffered to as aikido's fallen angel. Anyone?

Greg Jennings
10th April 2001, 11:55
Originally posted by dainippon99
on nother forum, a question was asked regarding bruce klickstein. it was never answered and i was wondering waht you guys knew. Apparently, he is reffered to as aikido's fallen angel. Anyone?

It's a sad story best left alone.

Sincerely,

autrelle
10th April 2001, 19:59
i am officially challenging the notion that the whole klickstein thing is something to not be talked about. with all of the posts on the bad budo section, i don't really see one reason why this would be something so taboo to talk about. the guy was one of Saito Sensei's most promising students. i heard stories that supposedly Saito Sensei would send his own son to train with bruce, in order that bruce should ensure that Hitohiro Sensei remained "humble." bruce commmited acts of criminal sexual abuse and injury. he was expelled, stripped of all rank, and ostracized by the Aikido community. i hear that he's somewhere selling computers. what i don't get is that when someone who doesn't know about bruce asks, they goet no response, or they are discouraged from further talk about it. why? could it be that supposedly he never stood trial for his actions? maybe out of deference for his victims? what about the ones who stepped forward and put an end to his behavior? you NEVER hear abou that? how did that go down? i would like to congratulate them, except that i wouldn't know where to start. when i first got his book some five years ago, i thought it was great. it's still a good technical manual. but when i heard about what he had done, i burned it. it disgusted me to have it around me. i don't care how good he was, the guy was a complete creep. and a lot of people still don't know about him, and they buy his book. i'm not saying that the book should not be available to everyone, but everyone should be able to make an informed decision about what they buy. is it a slander issue? from what i gather, everything he did is a matter of public record. so why the silence?

i have a theory. a very simple one. i know that if if ever commit the atrocities that he did, when my fellow students find out, it's over for me. they are going to handle it severely, and handle it themselves. and then you probably wouldn't see too much of me at all, if you get the drift.

i don't mean this to sound accusatory, but i would love it if someone could tell me why kliclstein as discussion topic is so taboo.

truly

Greg Jennings
10th April 2001, 21:33
Originally posted by autrelle

i don't mean this to sound accusatory, but i would love it if someone could tell me why kliclstein as discussion topic is so taboo.

truly [/B]

Got any hard, supported facts?

I was privy to a note from a female who was a student of Mr. Klickstein's during the time period in question. As recounted by her, the story is much more complicated than the usual rumors and gossip.

Sincerely,

chrismoses
10th April 2001, 22:11
One of the difficulties in mental or physical abuse cases is the lack of cold hard physical facts. A lot of people really looked up to Klickstein, and wanted to not believe the stories of abuse. It does seem to be mostly true however, (no I don't have facts, nor have I trained with him, so feel free to disagree with me). Ellis Amdur talks about this situation and the abuse of power/ trust in Aikido in his book Dueling with O-Sensei. I agree with the poster that said this is not something that should get swept under the rug. It may be ugly, but people should know that things like this can happen in Aikido dojos. Just because we're all Aikido Bunnies doesn't mean that some people won't take advantage of power to hurt others.

autrelle
11th April 2001, 01:26
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


Got any hard, supported facts?

I was privy to a note from a female who was a student of Mr. Klickstein's during the time period in question. As recounted by her, the story is much more complicated than the usual rumors and gossip.

Sincerely,

no i don't, because no one talks about it. that's my point exactly. if we had details there would be no need for exaggeration.

Yamantaka
11th April 2001, 11:38
Originally posted by autrelle
no i don't, because no one talks about it. that's my point exactly. if we had details there would be no need for exaggeration.

YAMANTAKA : I do believe you have a serious point, Autrelle! The same thing happened with me concerning Tohei Koichi Sensei's departure from the Aikikai.
I asked if anyone had a copy of his famous (and heavily talked about) open letter to the Aikikai and also of an open answer from Tadashi Abe Sensei.
Everybody treated my request as a loaded bomb or as if I was trying to flame a thread. My real interest is because I collect every available data on Aikido, since I'm a writer and contributor to many magazines.
But my answer was just that : SILENCE. And the interesting thing is that both letters were OPEN letters and Tohei's break up with the Aikikai is heavily discussed even today. I really can't understand it.
By the way, if anyone got copies of those letters and would be willing to share them with me, please let me know!
Best
Yamantaka

P Goldsbury
20th April 2001, 14:34
I think there are several issues here, which need to be distinguished. I met Bruce Klickstein at a New England Aikikai seminar given by Saito Sensei in the early 1980s. His ukemi was wonderful and he was always ready to translate Saito Sensei's Japanese, for me at least.

1. What kind of 'sins' should lead to total ostracism from the world of aikido?

This is a very difficult question to answer, but in my experience it is hard to lay down hard and fast rules. For example, Mr Klickstein clearly behaved very stupidly and he broke a very important rule: you should do nothing to bring your sensei into disrepute. On the other hand, in Japan many senseis thought to be the model of probity have sexual relationships with their students. Even if they are found out, nothing happens. Why? In Japan, a 'normal' samurai was expected to have sexual relations outside marriage and these might have been with members of either sex, and of varying ages. Perhaps this is all to do with sexual 'ki'. (There is an extensive literature on this subject, including some very interesting books by John Stevens). Illicit sex in aikido organisations is no big deal here morally and the only result is that it causes splits within organisations.

Mr Klickstein was tried and condemned by his peers in the USA, but I have direct knowledge of one of the deaths that occurred during aikido training in Japan. One of my own students died as a result of concussion caused by banging his head from repeated shiho-nage ukemi. He died during a summer training camp, but the police were not involved; the people who ran the club were never punished. The university paid a large sum of money in compensation and after a six-month hiatus, the club continued as before, with the same kind of hard shiho-nage practice. To my mind this death is certainly as serious as Mr Klickstein's transgressions, serious though they were, but it had very little effect on aikido practice in the university dojo.

I am a Christian and I think one should condemn the sin but not the sinner. I think that the only possible reason for ostracising Mr Klickstein would be the possibility that the offences would be repeated and in a dojo this is a very important factor. The recent outrage in England over convicted paedophiles released from prison, orchestrated by a newspaper, bears a very uncomfortable similarity to the Salem witchcraft episode and I do not think that Mr Klickstein should be treated in the same way.

2. Should Mr Klickstein's transgressions be the subject of a discussion thread?

Personally, I am doubtful about this. A discussion forum can be something of a snake pit and the transgressor is not usually in a position to defend himself. I myself hold a highly public office within the Aikikai and I have been attacked on a web discussion forum on very flimsy grounds. In aikido practice you should not meet strength with strength, but the safeguarding of a person's reputation is not quiite like practice on the tatami, or even like a personal discussion between people. I know that in a forum the 'consumers' decide, but when a person's moral character is in question, there is the risk of irremediable character assassination. A discussion forum is not a court.

3. Are there any similarities between discussion of the Klickstein case and Tohei Sensei's departure from the Aikikai?

Obviously there are. Both persons have been erased from history, so to speak, and there is a general reluctance within certain quarters to have any discussion. I am not sure if the twwo cases are the same, however. Tohei Sensei was operating within a Japanese cultural milieu and he had serious differences with Kisshomaru Doshu. He chose to break with the Aikikai in a non-Japanese way and suffered the consequences: he ceased to exist within a certain vertically-structured group (with its own concept of truth) and had to start another group. But this happens all the time in Japan and not just in the world of the martial arts. I am not sure if the same considerations were operative in the case of Mr Klickstein.

4. A Final Comment (with apologies for the length of this post).

I have lived in Japan long enough to know that respect for truth is treated differently here. In the West, possession of the truth is so important that (a) it is its own reward and (b) you can go to any lengths to obtain it. Here, especially in the world of the martial arts, different ground rules operate. Truth is important, but does not override other important considerations, such as the need to safeguard 'face' and harmony.

Best wishes to all,

Peter Goldsbury

PS. Yamataka-san. I note your comments about the famous letters regarding Tohei Sensei's withdrawal from the Aikikai. I am also searching for them, but need to ask 'nicely'. Please be patient.

George Ledyard
20th April 2001, 15:44
There were a lot of people who were deeply hurt by the actions of Bruce Klickstein. Although a lot of people are curious about the details of his actions and what led to his expusion from polite society so to speak. I would have no trouble with open discussion of these issues if it only involved Klickstein himself but this whole issue has others involved. His victims have the right to privacy and unless one or more of them chooses to open up the public discussion of what happened I think that the matter should not be thrown open to publiuc discussion by the rest of us.

Suffice it to say that the issues involved were not merely ethical issues over proper relations between male Senseis and their junior female students. If that got you banned from Aikido a good portion of the Aikido world would be in trouble. I am a big believer that we should have open and public discussion about the ethics and psychology involved between teachers and students. Ellis Amdur sensei has done everybody a huge service by throwing open the doors on this area.

But Klickstein's transgressions went far beyond that into the downright criminal. His behavior was conscious and predatory and his expulsion was not a matter of "politics" and the reluctance to discuss his actions comes from respect for the victims of his actions than from any desire to expunge his memory from the annals of Aikido due to personal or organizational vendetta. Comparison with Koichi Tohei Sensei's departure and subsequent Soviet style purge from all but the most minimal official mention in the history of the development of modern Aikido is amiss here. Tohei Sensei's problems with his peers were due to a clash of large personalities and their political aspirations. Klickstein's actions were criminal if not prosecutable and he should not be glorified by comparison to others whose faults were trivial and personal in nature.

The Amish, who are pacifists by conviction, have no tradition of force to police the behavior of the members of their community. They have no police, no jails, etc. Their response to transgressions which were deemed really serious was "shunning". No member of the community would speak to that person, acknowledge his presence in any way, nor would they even refer to his existence to each other. The person would cease to exist within their society. To someone brought up in the tight social nexus of that type of community that was the worst punishment they could think of. As far as I am concerned, unless someone finds that he is teaching Aikido again, shunning is a very appropriate response on the part of his former community, that of Aikido practitioners. If it turns out that he is trying to insinuate his way back into teaching I would recommend that those with direct knowledge of his actions make them public enough that no one is willing to train with him.

Yamantaka
20th April 2001, 19:23
To Ledyard Sama and Goldsbury Sama,

Ledyard Sama,

I quite understand your points and I fully agree with them. Read again my post : nowhere did I make "comparisons" between Tohei Sensei and Klickstein Sensei. I just pointed out that, in the West, access to information should be granted. Not for dirty reasons, for common gossip or for a "bashing forum". I guess none of us is interested in gruesome details of the supposed "sins" of Klickstein or possible "sordid" details of Tohei Sensei's departure from the Aikikai. But to answer that Klickstein's problems involved general things (proven or unproven) and that Saito Sensei erased his name from Iwama Ryu(fact or not?), would be simple and straightforward. To enable the access to Tohei Sensei and Tadashi Abe's "OPEN" letters to the Aikido community would be very important to researchers worldwide. No desire for gossip here also.
What I'm against is the "Wall of Silence" covering everything. That does not help us, nor Aikido, in any way.
Another thing : recently, I tried to get access to the Shinto Directive, promulgated by the American Occupation Forces in Japan, after the 2nd World War. In that directive, the SCAP determined the dismantling of State Shinto and the end of the veneration of the Japanese Emperor as a Kami. Do you know what? It has been ERASED from the Internet. The history and its facts are no longer available to research. What I can we think about that?
Best regards
Ubaldo.

Yamantaka
20th April 2001, 19:31
To Ledyard Sama and Goldsbury Sama (2nd part)

Goldsbury Sama,

I quite agree with many of your points but I didn't express myself clearly. Let me reinstate my point : I make no "comparisons" between Bruce Klickstein Sensei and Koichi Tohei Sensei. They're different people and theirs were different cases. But they both have a point in common : They have been "erased" from history. I'm radically against that. Truth must not be hidden.
I do not like, for instance, the Bad Budo Forum on this list and very rarily I participate in it (normally defending someone). Gossip, bad-mouthing, pre-judging people, aren't really my speciality. but I think some facts should be made available to everyone.
For instance, Tohei Sensei and Tadashi Abe "OPEN" letters to the Aikido community have no reason to be hidden. To speak ill of Tohei Sensei or the late Doshu would be wrong and bad for Aikido.
I'm glad you are searching for those open letters and would be honoured if you could share them with me. And, of course, I can be very patient...
My best welcome to you on E-Budo
Ubaldo.

P Goldsbury
21st April 2001, 00:39
The Japanese counterpart of the Amish punishment is 'murahachibu'. It was equally effective and something similar is still used today as a means of education/socialisation in Japan.

I do not wish to explore the grisly details of Mr Klickstein's transgressions and I agree with Mr Ledyard that a discussion forum is not an appropriate place to discuss this or other aspects of the matter. Thus in this post I will not mention his name again.

My feelings of disquiet have to do with the handling of such cases.

In western culture I think we have been brought up to believe in the importance of what I might call 'due process' when dealing with crime and punishment. It is important to safeguard both the interests of the victims and those of the accused. The victim can choose to bring a civil or criminal action against the accused, who is then tried before a judge and/or jury. When the process has finished punishment is pronounced (which can be either retributive or preventive, depending on the offence) and public shaming then takes place. The public shaming should follow the process, not precede it, and both the process and the punishment are made public.

In Japan, things are different and this should be kept in mind by any martial arts practitioner planning to reside here for a long period.

The case of the death from repeated shiho-nage I mentioned in my earlier post, there was no 'due process'. The death of the student was caused by his seniors but, beyond requiring them to give an 'explanation' of their actions and take a six-months hiatus in practice, no further action was taken. Not only did the seniors continue to practise, but they practised as they had done before. It is no surprise to me that the club now has very few members. Note that this inaction followed a death during practice. I doubt very much that lesser offences, even gross offences of a sexual nature, would have led to a different result. The recent case of Lucy Blackman speaks volumes. It would never have seen the light of day had not the British government become involved.

Another death occurred at my university around the same time, this time a clear case of murder. A disgruntled employee who felt he had been denied further promotion prospects stabbed the dean of one of the faculties. Of course, the police were involved and after a three-month investigation arrested the culprit. The point is that the alleged culprit was summarily dismissed from the university as soon as he had been arrested, well before he had been found guilty of the offence. When I raised this point, my colleagues regarded me with the kindness usually reserved for the village idiot. The man had brought 'shame' on the university, they said, and in any case it was obvious that he was guilty. Why else would the police have arrested him? Quite.

As with the aikido world, in this case history was rewritten and the culprit's name expunged from all written records. In a very clear case of 'murahachibu', his existence came to an end.

In fact, I myself was warned by no less a person than the university president (a) never to cause a fatal road accident, and (b) never to use aikido techniques outside the dojo. He did not mention gross offences of a sexual nature with students, but he was probably thinking only of cases which would certainly come to the attention of the police.

Best regards to all,

Peter Goldsbury

Meik Skoss
21st April 2001, 17:38
I have to agree with Peter Goldsbury's comments about intercultural differences and perceptions of culpability, guilt and shame. I'm not sure, though, if this is what is at issue in terms of the discussion of what happened in the aikido community here in the U.S. some years ago.

I suppose there may be some purpose in discussing this but I'm not sure that the particulars are at all useful in terms of preventing further occurrences of such abuse. It also brings to mind a further question: if folks are interested in discussing the misdeeds of this or that person, when does the focus shift to the actions of all of the direct students of Ueshiba Morihei who are resident in North America, Europe, elsewhere? Physical, mental, and emotional abuse of family members and students, use of illegal drugs, sexual predation, misuse of funds -- there're a lot of instances where the people in charge of the art, so to speak, have done/are doing wrong. We all hear stories, but it's hushed up, not acknowledged, even abetted by people caught by teachers' charisma.

I'm not suggesting no purpose is served by bringing the abuses to the light of day, but then what? If X Sensei or Y Shihan (or whatever one wants to call particular instructors) does this or that, how far are people willing to take it? To local or federal courts? The Immigration and Naturalization Service? Child Protection Services? Bunco Squad/Consumer Affairs? Or...?

I *know* that there are several highly respected aikido teachers in the U.S. who have committed the acts that I referred to several paragraphs above, and have heard a number of other stories about them, and others, from people in positions to know. But nothing's done about it and it certainly raises the question, why?

Ooops... that'd mean alienating the power structure, of not getting further along in rank, not having a place or a teacher with whom to train. Hmmm... that sort of puts it in a different light... Or does it?

Just some thoughts for a Saturday afternoon...

P Goldsbury
22nd April 2001, 06:17
Hello Meik,

O-hisashiburi de gozaimasu!

I think Meik Skoss raises a very important point and one which is very hard to deal with. Mr Klickstein committed criminal acts which in England, for example, would have carried a lengthy prison sentence. As it was, he was found out and received his just deserts. If we follow the Judaeo-Graeco-Roman-Chrisitian notions of fairness and the rule of law, on which British and American culture is largely based, we would expect that anyone else commiting similarly criminal acts should receive appropriate punishment.

I think we all know that this is not the case in the martial arts and I think the reluctance to discuss the issue stems not just from respect for the victims, for example, but from a general distaste for dealing with the 'ura-gawa', the 'dark side' of the martial arts. I cannot speak for other martial arts, but I can certainly speak for aikido.

I have said elsewhere that aikido is vertically structured, in the sense that the student enters into a vertical relationship with the teacher. Because it is a martial art, the relationship is one of mutual trust. It appears to be one-sided because the student is actively seeking something valuable from the teacher.

However, aikido is not a self-contained moral system and there are no rules which govern this human relatioship other than those which student and teacher have learned as part of their general culture. In aikido techniques there is usually 'omote waza' and 'ura waza', but in Japanese culture, these concepts go far beyond aikido and are applicable to one's character. (This is further explored in "Japanese Identity", by Dr Takeo Doi.)

Of course, I have met some wonderful aikido teachers like the late Rinjiro Shirata. I think that with Shirata Sensei, the aikido training illuminated a splendid human character. However, it came as a major shock to me early on in my aikido career to find that some aikido teachers have an 'ura gawa', a dark side, that is very dark indeed and bring nothing good to the art whatsoever except a high level of technical skill. As the term implies, the 'ura gawa' is meant to be kept hidden, but on the occasions when it appears, it can shatter a student's ideals about the martial art, though perhaps 'destroy the illusions' might be a more appropriate phrase.

From my time as an academic in Japan, I have learned that to be an aikido 'Sensei' is no big deal here. In fact it can be a positive disadvantage: a young man will not help his marriage prospects if he is a professional aikido teacher, as he would if he were a doctor. And very few people in my experience go to an aikido sensei for any spiritual guidance: they go to practise and that is it.

Thus those aikido instructors who have a 'dark side' which is darker than usual and also visible tend to have many ex-students. In Japan, you do not take your sensei to court for injuries or sexual offences, for example. You give up the art altogether, or move on, sadder and very much wiser, to someone else. In a vertical relationship there is no way to repair it if it has been grievously damaged. The only possibility is to discontinue it. I think this applies also outside Japan, but it is sometimes much harder to do.

To be a 'Sensei' in the west, the USA, for example, is a big deal and it is very unfortunate that some do not have the moral virtues that are thought to go with the title. In this respect, despite all the stuff in the 'Hagakure', samurai are very poor models when it comes to sexual probity.

How should an aikido teacher behave, in the US, for example? As a 'Sensei' (not of aikido) in a Japanese university, I have been taught to be as fair as possible to all my students and treat everyone equally, which is actually very difficult. In particular, no favourites and no discrimination on the basis of sex. In fact sexual liaisons with students leads to prompt dismissal.

I think this applies even more in the dojo. In particular, I think that male aikido 'sensei' should not have particular friendships with their female students. I have been very shocked to find not only that Japanese aikido senseis, who are married, have intimate relationships with one or more of their female students, but also that these relationships are not particularly private. It is tempting to regard this behaviour as 'being human', but I think this is a grave mistake.

One might argue that this is a private matter. I agree and, of course, I am aware that sometimes an aikido 'sensei' marries one of his female students. In this case, there is an additional element to the strictly vertical relationship between teacher and student. But even in this case, the additional element has no place in the dojo.

Aikido is an art with a high level of physical contact and is based on an unequal relationship of mutual trust. It is also essentially non-discriminatory and I think this is the reason why sexual relationships have no place in the dojo.

Thus my opinions. But I would not be surprised if some members of this forum found all this too harsh.

Best regards to all,

Peter Goldsbury

autrelle
23rd April 2001, 14:56
"I *know* that there are several highly respected aikido teachers in the U.S. who have committed the acts that I referred to several paragraphs above, and have heard a number of other stories about them, and others, from people in positions to know. But nothing's done about it and it certainly raises the question, why?"

i think that it was Confucius who said something along the lines of "to see the right course and not take the right action is to want of courage."

this has indeed become a very reasonable discussion on why somethings are not discussed. most informative and most enlightening. thanks to george, peter, and meik.

truly

Tom Douglas
27th April 2001, 02:46
Despite the disavowal by his teacher and the attempted "shunning" by the larger Aikido community, Mr. Klickstein continues to teach Aikido from time to time, and his Aikido text continues to sell. Apparently either the information about Mr. Klickstein's criminal acts is not getting out, or new as well as experienced aikidoka make their individual decisions that they don't care because his Aikido teaching is so good.

Yamantaka, you might consider a private inquiry with the publisher of Aikido Today Magazine here in the U.S. She might be willing to provide specific information to you.

Generally, the standard of evidence required to convict someone of criminal conduct is fairly high. Mr. Klickstein would not have been convicted without a certain amount of professional investigation and witnesses willing to testify.

Tom Douglas

Yamantaka
28th April 2001, 02:00
Originally posted by Tom Douglas

Yamantaka, you might consider a private inquiry with the publisher of Aikido Today Magazine here in the U.S. She might be willing to provide specific information to you.
Tom Douglas

YAMANTAKA : A very common kind of mistake in this kind of thread, Tom...Read again : I had no interest in Klickstein's story. I just pointed out that "the curtain of silence" didn't happen just in that case and that I myself had met with this curtain in two cases - the open letters by Koichi Tohei Sensei and Tadashi Abe Sensei and the SCAP Shinto Directive, both "erased from history"...
Some people misunderstood me , thinking that I was comparing Tohei Sensei with Klickstein Sensei. I was not.
Best

autrelle
30th April 2001, 12:29
i would like to hear more about the student who died during the shihonage and the school involved, mainly so that i can avoid those people. a private email or message would be sufficient.

truly

P Goldsbury
30th April 2001, 15:35
Originally posted by autrelle
i would like to hear more about the student who died during the shihonage and the school involved, mainly so that i can avoid those people. a private email or message would be sufficient.

truly

To autrelle,

You are very unlikely to meet any of the people involved in the case and school involved. The incident occurred in 1983 and, to my knowledge, none of those who were collectively responsible any longer practise the martial arts. So private e-mail is not necessary.

I think you would be unlikely to find such a method of training in Europe or the US, with the tradition of dojo disclaimers and instant litigation. It is highly unlikely that a martial arts dojo in the US would survive with a history of fatal injuries suffered during practice. But both of these are alien to Japan.

Such incidents involving death or very serious injury were the subject of an article which appeared in "Aiki News". The (undated) issue is No.80 and the article was written by Mr. Fumiaki Shishida, a professor at Waseda University. The article was a short summary of some serious research done on aikido injuuries and detailed 11 cases, including the one with which I am familiar. The first incident recorded by Mr Shishida occurred in 1972 and the last in 1985: 11 cases in a 13-year period. I am not aware of any research conducted after 1985, but I would be surprised if such incidents suddenly ceased to occur.

All the cases involved death, paralysis, or serious brain damage. As for the techniques involved, 6 involved shihonage specifically and all the others except one involved repeated ushiro-ukemi from irimi-nage or kote-gaeshi. The exception, not fatal, was brain damage from a botched ukemi from ushiro ryote mochi.

In my opinion, the 'classic' ukemi from shihonage, irimi-nage, or kote-gaeshi is ushiro-ukemi. However, in all three techniques it is possible for uke to be allowed to twist the body and take a forward or side ukemi. In shihonage this can put a severe strain on the elbow. I learned this second way in England but when I came to Japan I was told that this type of throw was "too severe", so the 'ushiro-ukemi' is the norm.

However, all the incidents occurred at Japanese universities or high schools and this illustrates a very interesting, and sinister, aspect of Japanese martial arts culture. All the incidents except two were the result of either repeated ushiro ukemi during summer or winter training camps conducted by club seniors. All the victims were freshmen or sophomore students (9 freshmen; 2 sophomores). That is to say, in all cases the training was conducted by students of shodan or nidan rank with a minimum of three years experience of aikido practice. The local shihans and university authorities generally leave the running of the martial art clubs to the students themselves. But if you combine the culture of 'gaman', 'fighting spirit', and 'Yamato-damashi' with a technique like shihonage, and put the trainng in the hands of relative amateurs, the combination is potentially fatal.

Why did I mention this incident in this thread? Basically, because of the 'veil of silence'. The fatal incident in my university was never discussed and what I know of the incident is because I became friends with the (totally bewildered) parents of the boy who died. The students who caused the death of the student were never called to account for their actions by the police or the local aikido community. All the dojo 'leaders' were warned to "be extra careful" with shihonage.

The differences between this case and the Klickstein case are that: (1) the students were acting within a certain type of martial arts culture, but this also means that the person who actually caused the death of student was never identified and forced to acknowledge his responsibility; (2) the students were not tried and convicted by their aikido peers; the investigation was handled solely by the university authorities; (3) the incident was 'spontaneous', in the sense that there was not a history of such incidents in the university club: it was due to a certain combination of circumstances.

I hope this answers your question, but if it doesn't, feel free to continue the discussion.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury

autrelle
1st May 2001, 16:44
yes it certainly does answer my question plus a lot more. it seems so odd to me that these things could happen in a dojo and for the most part, there is no legal action, and then no one talks about it. i have been in a few altercations on the street, and even though i don't know these people (or care about them since their attacking me!), i still worried about being arrested! and worse stuff happens in the dojo! death. paralysis. brain damage.

one day we'll get it right, i hope so.

thanks truly

PRehse
1st May 2001, 18:19
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : A very common kind of mistake in this kind of thread, Tom...Read again : I had no interest in Klickstein's story. I just pointed out that "the curtain of silence" didn't happen just in that case and that I myself had met with this curtain in two cases - the open letters by Koichi Tohei Sensei and Tadashi Abe Sensei and the SCAP Shinto Directive, both "erased from history"...Best

And what pray tell was the SCAP Shinto Directive?

Yamantaka
1st May 2001, 20:24
Originally posted by PRehse


And what pray tell was the SCAP Shinto Directive?

YAMANTAKA : Ah, the hidden and sinister SCAP Shinto Directive... :up: :up: :up:
Well, it's a bit OT and not directly linked to Aikido. After the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the American Occupation Forces in Japan, headed by Gal. Douglas McArthur, began to transform Japan in a capitalistic country, under the orientation of Good Ol' USA...
The economic system, the educational system, the Emperor's divinity, the martial arts, all were prohibited or transformed. This forced changing of Japan extended even to religion. The SCAP Shinto Directive was issued to dismiss the state shinto sect, since it has deep roots with the divinity of the Emperor. It was sent to the Emperor of Japan, communicated that, from that date on, State Shinto was forbidden in Japan.
I had free access to information on that and even printed a copy (now lost) of that document. Recently, when I tried to look for it in the Web, I was surprised to find out that it was not to be found anywhere. Don't ask me for reasons. That's what I asked you all. :(
Best

PRehse
1st May 2001, 21:52
Originally posted by Yamantaka

The SCAP Shinto Directive was issued to dismiss the state shinto sect, since it has deep roots with the divinity of the Emperor. It was sent to the Emperor of Japan, communicated that, from that date on, State Shinto was forbidden in Japan.
I had free access to information on that and even printed a copy (now lost) of that document. Recently, when I tried to look for it in the Web, I was surprised to find out that it was not to be found anywhere. Don't ask me for reasons. That's what I asked you all. :(
Best

Well I went hunting and found lots on the directive including some indepth analysis but a word for word copy I couldn't find. But that of course doesn't mean anything as someone has to have it , want to put it up and have it in a place the search engine worms can find and rank it high enough that it will show up.

Anyway don't worry Ubaldo - I have found some wonderful things on the web which disappeared only to magically pop up again at a later date.

Personally I think the internet is controlled by a pack of tengu.