AIKIDO Vs KENDO

[TIM BURTON]

Any of you tried out your Aikido versus Ken techniques against a Kendoist?
:D

[Sam]

I have to say no, I haven't tried it.

After watching a few kendo classes myself, I would have to say I would be very worried about facing a kendoka (sp?) - unless they were unarmed ;)

It seems to me that the main problem would be passing the men strike which is very fast and enables multiple strikes by virtue of the fact that the weight is not commited to it. I guess it is a bit like getting past a boxers jab, only the range is twice as long!

I would perhaps try a low entry like with gedanate to give me more time - esp. if they had taken the posture with the bokken raised above the head.
Or maybe a non linear entry to force a yokumen strike?
Still dangerous though....


If (a big if) successful entry is achieved I'm pretty happy with the goshin waza - they seem to work to me. You would have to use the kansetsu waza if they were wearing the head guard.

[PRehse]

Hi Sam;

What I found most interesting about Kendo is the concept of total commitment to an attack. I can not remember the word they used but in any case, the mind set is not defensive. In competition they can apparently be penalized for being too defensive.

I have tried Kendo but like all martial arts - an afternoon doesn't count. I did spend a few years doing western saber which does help perspective wise.

Hey I spent a total of 5 hours training in sumo but if you look at my body you know how ridiculous that was. Still, in both cases, it helps gain an understanding of our little thing.

So let's play the game.

Situation 1: Facing a kendoka with both of us armed and ready to go.

First of all I would be paying big attention to ma-ai. I expect his tsukuri to be very effective so I would increase ma-ai even further than the traditional crossing of weapon tips. I would be foolish to try and out kendo him so I would be less concerned with me being in striking distance. Irimi is not an option. Most experienced swordsman do not lift the sword as high as most Aikido weapon bunnies. My only real hope is that my opponent would be unbalanced by his attack then I would drop my sword and go for what I know best.

Situation 2. Him armed me not. As above but more nervous. I don't have a stick to keep him at bay.

Situation 3. Me armed him not. Yehaaaa!!!! Keep the sword and charge.

[Enfield]

Originally posted by PRehse
What I found most interesting about Kendo is the concept of total commitment to an attack. I can not remember the word they used but in any case, the mind set is not defensive.

It is sutemi, which means "discard the body", or more loosely "go for broke."


In competition they can apparently be penalized for being too defensive.

Not really, but if it comes down to a decision by the shimpan (tied at the end of the extension period), aggressiveness counts a lot.


Situation 1: Facing a kendoka with both of us armed and ready to go.

First of all I would be paying big attention to ma-ai. I expect his tsukuri to be very effective so I would increase ma-ai even further than the traditional crossing of weapon tips. I would be foolish to try and out kendo him so I would be less concerned with me being in striking distance. Irimi is not an option. Most experienced swordsman do not lift the sword as high as most Aikido weapon bunnies. My only real hope is that my opponent would be unbalanced by his attack then I would drop my sword and go for what I know best.

I am not familiar with the term tsukuri; could you please explain it?

Be aware that toma (farther than normal spacing) is common during kendo practice, as practicing from there makes hitting from isokuittounoma easier, so to keep completely out of range, you'll have to be pretty far away. Also, being unbalanced during a strike is just as bad in kendo as it is in aikido, as the kendoka has to be ready to receive or deliver taiatari (body checking). My suggestion for the aikidoka here, having done aikido for a few years in college and now doing kendo, would be to wait for an attack, foil it somehow, close to tsubazeriai (crossed guards), then do some sort of grappling/throwing waza.


Situation 2. Him armed me not. As above but more nervous. I don't have a stick to keep him at bay. Well, as tachi dori is bad enough against aiki folks, I wouldn't want to try it against someone for whom speed of attack in an important part of their training. That said, attempting it is better than doing nothing, so I'd try to drop low and move to the side and gain control of the tsuka as quickly as possible.


Situation 3. Me armed him not. Yehaaaa!!!! Keep the sword and charge. Well yeah, he's pretty much screwed. There's a reason people fought with weapons rather than their bare hands. But realize that most kendoka have faced this situation at least a few times, though havn't trained for it.

[Den]

Hold on now - Tim, you said Aikido vs. ken, but you didn't say taijutsu only. Kendo is a sport that uses a bamboo shinai while the Aikidoist get to use bokken (preferably composite rosewood for this particular assignment), jo or tanto. If we really get into O'Sensei's repetiore, the Aikidoist also has the choice of a bayonet!

The Aikidoist also gets to call on all their Daito ryu and Kashima Shinto ryu resources. As long as the Kendoist isn't really up on their Seitei-gata iaido, and isn't using an iaito or shinken - I'll take those odds.

Just kidding.

-Anthony

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Den
Kendo is a sport that uses a bamboo shinai while the Aikidoist get to use bokken (preferably composite rosewood for this particular assignment), jo or tanto.

Right, kendoka only train to score points by tapping an opponent with a shinai. You keep believing that, and see how well you do.

[dainippon99]

him armed me not.
point out the fact that there is something absolutely provacative behind him, then as he turns to look, proceed to run up and do a mae geri right where it counts. :) :) :)

[George Ledyard]

Saotome sensei is actually known for his use of shinai in Aikido training so I have some experience in this area while not actually having done kendo proper.

I think that most Aikido people would have a shock attempting to do technique against a kendoka. The speed and intensity of their attacks far exceeds what most Aikido folks are used to. Then of course they are used to countering defensive technique which is also something most Aikido people aren't used to.

That said, Kendo is a sport. The weaknesses that the kendoka have are due to the habits developed in their training. They only have to protect certain targets, they can only score face to face, etc. So I would focus on striking a target they are not used to defending. If you parry an attack the kendoka will keep moving forward and through because a strike to the back of the head doesn't count in kendo. So turn and hit him. (Ellis Amdur Sensei told us a story about a headmistress of the Buko Ryu Naginata school doing precisely this when she did a match against a kendo master. He was doing sport and she was doing Budo).

There are two strategies which I might pursue. Unlike the gentleman above who wanted to make distance I would strive to touch swords and maintain light contact. This would go some way towards nuetralizing the speed that most kendoka have. Keeping constant forward pressure I would strive to cut by slicing rather than by swinging the sword thereby leaving the minimum opening. The kendoka wouldn't be used to this as he is required to strike with power to score and slicing movements don't score.

A second possibility would be to use one of the various techniques by which you vacate a space while striking back into the space. It might be possible to accomplish a cut while zoning out. And stay just out of range of the kendoka's strike.

As for unarmed defense. Unless the kendoka is comatose you're toast.

[Den]

As a serious answer, let's look at history of the art and take its foundation into account.

The main body of Aikido, the empty handed techniques that is, are based on Daito ryu and in turn oshikiiuchi. Oshikiiuchi was developed to be used within the confines of a castle or noblemen's house where carrying a sword would not be allowed (As we know when a samurai entered the home of a nobleman they removed their katana and at most would only carry their wakizashi or tanto). With this foundation, Aikido was simply not meant to counter an opponent armed with a sword.

While my ranking is in Aikido, I've studied Kendo and currently study kenjutsu. My experience to date, like the others who've responded, is that the swordsman always has the advantage.

The only acception to this - in my limited experience - is someone of the calibre of O'Sensei. His method of responding to an attack before it is even initiated could surely counter a wide variety of weapons, but this is the acception to the rule isn't it?

-Anthony

[dainippon99]

It's true that oshikiuchi was a palace art, but daito is not oshikiuchi. Takeda incorporated Ono ha itto ryu, as well as some other ken oriented things into his daito ryu. Note the tachi dori and kumitachi waza in aikido. Im pretty sure that if someone were expert in these techniques, and had exquisite timing (not all of us), along with the bushi mindset, they would be able to stand up to a kendoka. It is all in the ma ai.

[Dennis Hooker]

From my experience I find very few Aikidoka proficient enough with the bokken to offer even the slightest challenge to a skilled swordsman, be it kendo on kenjutsu. The relationship of the ken to taijutsu of Aikido is the primary goal of most Aikiod teachers who use the instrument as a learning tool. They are not trying to teach you how to use a sword but how to use distance and space. They are teaching you how to stand, move, center, and observer as a swordsman would. They are teaching you how to grip and feel, contact and understand. They are not teaching you how to fight with a sword. THIS IS OK, IT’S GOOD! IT IS WHAT IT IS MEANT TO BE. The delusion begins when some less informed students become a teacher and believes that he/she is also a competent sword person because of the bokken work they learned.

To the people who study Japanese swordsman-ship and have reached a certain degree of proficiency most Aikidoka provide a menu of opportunity. There are however true Aikido sword prodigies and skilled exponents of the koryu sword arts in Aikido so teaching the sword as sword is not unknown. However, it is uncommon!

As a veteran of Aikido and kenjutsu I would have to say my Aikido is better in relative terms. I would not hesitate to seek flight from a sword wielding attacker if given half a chance, and if I were unarmed.

If an Aikidoka spends a few hours a month with a bokken in his/her hand and believes they are equal in swordsman-ship of a person that spends hours a day with a sword in his/her hand under competent instruction then I think they are foolish and arrogant.

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
.

If an Aikidoka spends a few hours a month with a bokken in his/her hand and believes they are equal in swordsman-ship of a person that spends hours a day with a sword in his/her hand under competent instruction then I think they are foolish and arrogant.

We are arrogant??Foolish??

Oh, NO NO NO!!!

You forgot aikido secret weapon....

We, aikidokas, we extend our KI, keep one point and we throw this kendo fighters with no touch throw, just like that ...pam!
And we keep repeating it until these guys understand how foolish is to attack us, when we are One With Univers...

[gato]

Well said Mr. Hooker.
Some sense of reality here, please!
Remember that kendo is not a sword art.
Handling a Shinken in battle and survive against another trained warrior is A LOT DIFFERENT than hitting a protected opponent with onlya shinai to score some points in a competition (guided by rules).



Nelson Sanz

[Enfield]

Originally posted by gato
Well said Mr. Hooker.
Some sense of reality here, please!
Remember that kendo is not a sword art.
Handling a Shinken in battle and survive against another trained warrior is A LOT DIFFERENT than hitting a protected opponent with onlya shinai to score some points in a competition (guided by rules).

Have you ever studied kendo, and if so, how much? Please tell me on what basis you formed this opinion. Kendo is not a sword art, but aikido is?

In the the two clubs I train at, I can only think of one or two people who train "to score some points in a competition (guided by rules)," and they're teenagers. In fact, the only time I've heard anyone talk about points is when a big taikai is less than a week away. I'd posit that facing someone who gets to do what he wants to do to keep you from hitting him while he's trying to make contact is in some ways closer to being in an actual fight than kata practice where you know that the only way your opponent is going to hit you is if you both mess up.

I did aikido for about four years, and I liked it a lot. The only reason I don't do it now is that I didn't find out about the local aikido club until after I was in the local kendo club and they meet at the same time. However, believing that aikiken practice is preparing you for battle with katana is as mistaken believing samurai practiced kendo. Yes, there are several significant differences between modern kendo waza and "real" swordsmanship, but in my opinion they are fewer, though different, than those between aikiken and "real" swordsmanship.

Besides, whether or not kendo teaches waza for combat with a shinken wasn't the original question. For that, see the thread "Curiosity about fighting kendoka" in the sword arts forum. It was how do aikidoka (implying using tachi-dori waza) fair against kendoka, rather than someone whose only sword experience is aikiken. I think that in such a situation, the aikidoka would be in for a surprisingly faster, stronger, and more controlled attack than they are used to, and in an all likelihood could handle.

[gato]

Hello everyone,
I didn't try to say that kendo is not a sword art and aikido is.
I was talking about kenjutsu.
I like aikido (i'm a practicioner) and kendo (i started recently), but i think we have to realize the real matter when talking about preparing for mortal combat with edge weapons (in this case shinken)
Of course, this is my personal opinion

Nelson Sanz

[chrisinbrasil]

I've had the pleasure of being beaten with a shinai several times... I always end up hearing and feeling the slapping thump on the top of my head or hands. So I'm not that good, so what...

#1. kendo guy has a REAL sword, I have nothing, I run.

#2. kendo guy has a REAL sword, so do I, I run.

#3. kendo guy has shinai, I have a smile :), I fight.

#4. kendo guy has nothing, I have a smile :), I fight.

= kendo guy with anything but a REAL sword, we have a situation. How much are front row seats? :laugh:

[Den]

I've posted a couple of times on this thread comically and seriously. I've studied both Aikido and Kendo and I recently began study of Kenjutsu. Both of you have valid points, and I'm not trying to referee or negotiate the discussion.

In my opinion neither Kendo or Aikido adequately teach swords arts in regard to "using swords in the field." Aikido I think less so than Kendo, because A. Kendoka use a shinai every time they practice which cannot be said of Aikidoka, B. Kendoka study Seitei-gata iaido and C. Aikiken is a very limited set of kata.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure any of this was the point of Tim's question. I think George's posts, here and in the Aikijutsu discussion group have been much more to the point. Are their empty handed techniques in Aikido which would really work against an experienced sword user. For the bulk of Aikido students the answer is no because we have not been taught those techniques. Some Shihan such as Saotome and Nishio teach these techniques, but even then, the experienced sword user is at the advantage.

-Anthony

[chrismoses]

I study a dedicated sword art and Aikido and I think it's safe to say that unless the guy weilding the sword in inept, it's going to be very hard to disarm him. When we practice weapon take aways, I do my sword attacks like an Aikidoka, not a Battojutsu practitioner. It's just too hard to disarm someone who does their absolute best not to telegraph their intention, and then cuts with full speed and full power. At an Ellis Amdur seminar a few years ago, he whipped out a wooden tanto and said, "Can anyone tell me what this is?" A few people replied that it was a tanto (duh) others said that we should respect it as a real knife not just a wooden training weapon. Ellis' response was that it was an honest to God 6th degree blackbelt in whatever art you were most afraid of. His point was that although we practice weapon take-aways, we should not presume that disarming a real attacker is as easy or clean as we might think.

This also comes back to the sparring in Aikido question. Typically we don't really spar in Aikido. Whenever you enter into a sparring session you have to set the rules, what's a fair target, what's a fair technique, when does it end... So with this imaginary bout with the Kendoka, is it over when he hits you with the shinai or when he disables you? I know from experience that I can take a few serious hits with even a fukuro shinai. Or is he armed with a bokken, a shinken? Can he keep getting up after thrown or is that the end of the match? Am I allowed to perform techniques which injure or must I protect him regardless? Just some things to think about. I'm still mulling over if and how sparring fits into my Aikido training, so these are questions that I think about from time to time.

[hiko_77]

I know that kendokas are highly trained to commit an attack withouth hesitation, and structure their thought in such a way that a fulminant blow can be unnoticed by the opponent. However, as an Aikido sensei, I see some points in which every Aikidoka would take into consideration in case thay would probably face a kendoka:

First: In spite of speed, the main axis-motion of the kendoka is linear. That is, the movement of their body lies under a physical principle: the front force. That is when when a kendoka´s amazing blow strikes take place under a 90 degrees movement, as well as 45 degrees movement. Our equivalent term in Aikido would be an irimi (whether linear or triangular).

Second: The blow-strike that a kendoka does, normally is based in just one definite and powerful movement. Due to shinai´s weight, blow direction and hip force executed in order to strike, the kendoka only has one decisive movement to hit the target. But here could be a problem: if the blow fails, the chance kendoka takes to recover his/her posture could be minimal if the distance is quite short.

Third: In most of the kendo styles, the tenkan is hardly or not developed. In my humble opinion, this is the weak point in case that shinai blow would fail on the target. Why? Simple: because in Kendo the confrontation and response obey to opposite f physical forces based on linear movement, but not on the centripetal force derived from spiral movements. Believe me: blowing with a shinai first in a linear movement is easier than facing an Aikidoka evading a shomen blow with a tenkan. In this case, the Aikidoka has complete control of his/her posture inmediately, wether the kendoka would not do to the weight of his/her weapon.

Fourth and last: If the Aikidoka sets his/her mind with peace and living the present at that single moment, no matter the result in a posible confrontation (not only against a kendoka but any other martial style), surely the result will be victory. Why? Because if you attach your mind to something (no matter if it is a weapon or the ego), when you loose it, fear comes; but when you are not attached to anything at the time of the confrontation, you become invulnerable. If the kendoka goes with the same assumption, there´s no reason for confronting.