Ki and kokyu

[yamatodamashii]

What's the difference?

[dainippon99]

ki and kokyu are different and the same. Ki is the energy produced from good kokyu, and good kokyu is fueled by ki.

[Gil Gillespie]

Nice, Bobby! Your post calls to mind the yin-yang symbol or Saotome Sensei's wonderful drawing of the interdependence of the universe's energy in the form of a spiraling DNA molecule (from "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature"). I'm wondering if Ki, as a universal energy, can ever be "produced." Or does effective breathing power harness it, or tap into it? Since it is within and among us at the same time. I don't claim to know.

Hopefully Jason has started a good ball rolling here. I hope I added a little snow to it as it gains momentum down the mountainside.

[Scott]

How about this? Kokyu is Ki in action (motion), or rather the expression/extension of Ki through motion.

Sincerely,

[OldRonin]

Regarding ki and kokyu.

Just recently, on the aikido journal BBS, Sensei Wagner Bull of Brazil posted to a thread on ki. His description was one of the best I have ever read, and I am going to take the liberty of pasting a long but I think enlightened quote from him. My take on Sensei Bull is that he has a depth of understanding of aikido that is second to few. There is much wisdom here, in my opinion, and his words are worth pondering for some time.
Here's what he wrote (edited for spelling).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"KI" is the name given to the energy that makes all movements of the universe, a kind of "living energy". What makes things vibrate is the action of "KI", producing the KOKYU. But "KI"itself does not manifest directly in the physical world. In another thread I gave the example of the remote control. The waves that cross the air are KI, but it is the engine that will make the physical action. The same with our body. You can have a very strong KI, but if you don't have a trained body and mind it will be impossible to perfom strong martial art. Of course you don't need muscular strength, but a lot of training is necessary to use the power of Ki that you have.
Ki indicates to us how we can best use our bodies. So without having developed your ki, no way, you will not be able to do effective techniques , and use your body to its full potential.
The unbendable arm is a good example. If you change the way to use the muscles of your arm extending then relaxing, then the resistance will be in the inferior part of the arm, from where there is a line of force , an arch, connected to the central part of your body, your hara, and using this arch to resist it is much more stronger than the use of the biceps. If you contract the biceps to resist, in reality you are giving an extra help to the person that is trying to bend it.
It is a question of mechanics and redirecting forces.

KI is a kind of guide, the manager, not the operator, or the labor man. That is why I think the old Japanese say Aiki was practiced by the high ranking Samurai of the Aizu Clan, and it is not popular among simple minded persons cause it is a study for the more evolved persons, the leaders, maybe that is why the politicians and generals loved to study O Sensei's teachings.
That is why a good synonym for Ki is "perception", or "awareness".

Aikido teaches how to lead, how to avoid conflicts and manage people to work together towards a common goal. It is the art for the kings....for the presidents, and leaders. KI is a real thing, it is not fake....

What I condemn ... is the fact of doing one thing using Ki properly, and then to give to the public an exaggerated, unreal explanation.
For example. You can memorize a poem of Shakespeare, during 3 days, using your KI (perception, and registration of the words in your brains). Then in a conversation with some persons you say.
Listen folks...Now I will use my Ki.....I will think in Shakespeare and due to the power of my "KI", I will repeat a complete poem of him...just take a look." And then after some strange shamanistic movements you repeat the poem and the observed get impressed. Then you say: "Yes ...if you train KI you will do wonders"...

...It is true that that person in my example used and trained Ki, it is true that he did that demonstration with KI, BUT NOT IN THE WAY HE IS MAKING PEOPLE BELIEVE!!!!...


...I am a civil engineer and my graduation was done in structural mechanics. In fact this was a terrible barrier to me to entering into the spiritual side of Aikido in the beginning years, because of my Cartesian training of how to think. On the other side, it was a big advantage when the question was to understand how techniques worked.
Archimedes the Greek said , "give me a point of support, and I can move the world". Imagine.... moving the world... what a fantastic feat. And to do this he just needed a lever and a support (the mechanical leverage effect).

I tell you, dear aikido mat friends that what people say about the "POWER OF KI" EXPRESSED IN TECHNIQUES IS JUST MECHANICS EFFECTS!!!! Nothing supernatural!!!
If nage can create a good lever, taking advantage of the forces of the uke that attacks him, he will control and make him submit then easily without big efforts.
BUT HOW TO USE CORRECTLY THE LEVERS??????
If someone can feel the line of forces, and archs that appears in uke and in himself when doing aikido techniques, and can find the right places to project his energy and put his body weight in the right point, the perfect technique is done.
And to do it, GREAT KI IS NECESSARY.
SO , the problem of "KI"(perception), IS FUNDAMENTAL IN PRODUCING GREAT TECHNIQUES.
If one has not developed his "KI", he will never be able to use the power of leverage and his aikido technique will be always, muscular, primitive.
But ki is a perception not a physical energy.
Tohei sensei was short and heavy, he could use well his body in the leverage effect, especially when he was pulling. Shioda sensei was an expert when entering (pushing). It was that capacity of Shioda Sensei to create the leverage on uke's body in a single moment that produced that marvelous effects that he called kokyu roku, and now after his death people are calling "kami waza".
They really look supernatural, but they are not, just perfect utilization of mechanical and dynamics principles. But almost divine yes in terms of perceiving things, DIVINE KI...

Wagner Bull
Brazil

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



I will email Bull-sensei and thank him for sharing his wisdom with us.