PDA

View Full Version : Shinkage-ryu heiho



yamatodamashii
26th June 2000, 03:31
I'm looking for information on a system that I heard of while I was in Okinawa--It's called Shinkage ryu. I thought that it was a Gendai system, but I've been told differently now. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

CKohalyk
26th June 2000, 04:36
Are you referring to Shinkage-ryu jujutsu/yawara? Can you provide any kanji?

Regards,

CKohalyk

Diane Skoss
26th June 2000, 13:30
Hi,

There're several photos, a brief description, and historical background on the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu at Koryu.com. The URL is http://koryu.com/guide/yagyushinkage.html

Hope this helps!

Ellis Amdur
26th June 2000, 15:14
There is also a Shinkage Ryu Jujutsu of appr. four or five generations old - it is a "combination" of, I think, four older grappling traditions, and it is still practiced.

I also recall a book published by Weatherhill, Tuttle or Kodansha about a modern system called Shinkage Ryu, which I think claimed to be a combination of judo, aikido and karate.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Walker
26th June 2000, 17:39
The book is “Japan’s Complete Fighting System: Shin Kage Ryu” by Robin Rielly, Tuttle, 1998
I have seen the book several times in book stores and it seems to be very much Karate based with some jujutsu, better than average karate esq. sword work, and knife. Perhaps similar to Wado Ryu? I think they say that karate techniques were added to Shin Kage Ryu Jujutsu early 20th century making something referred to Shin Kage Ryu karate jujutsu.

Paul Mathews
26th June 2000, 20:28
The ISBN for the book by Robin Reilly is 0-8048-1536-4
The copyright is 1989 rather than 1998.

Paul

CKohalyk
27th June 2000, 07:20
Just to add to Mr. Amdur's post, Shinkage-ryu JJ was created in the mid-Meiji with the main influence being Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. I am not sure if this is supposed to be the same as the previously mentioned karate-influenced Shinkage, but from my limited exposure to SRJJ it does have the same "feel" as TSyR, speaking as a TSyR guy.

Hope this helps,

CKohalyk

Alex Dale
25th May 2005, 05:07
Hello everyone,


Many of us in the koryu world know of Yagyu Shinkage-ryű and its branches, primarily the Edo and Owari lines. However, in my attempts to research and find out more, it seems that there are more branches of Shinkage-ryű are still practiced today.

I picked up the book Iaido by William De Lange awhile back because I was curious to see the "Shinkage-ryű iaido" techniques illustrated in picture format. I figured it might be a good resource. Upon recieving it, I see similarities in the outer application of the techniques, however, many of the kata are different than what I have learned and seen demonstrated. Hmm.

So, back to the internet I went. With the help of my friend Google, I turned up various dojo in Europe that indeed practice "Yagyu Shinkage-ryű iaido" or just "Shinkage-ryű iaido" (I assume they are talking about the same thing). From what I can tell, though, it doesn't seem they practice any kenjutsu from the Yagyu Shinkage-ryű heiho and they only talk about the iai portion. They also don't describe it as "Yagyu Seigo-ryű", the complimentary batto kata that are taught to students of the Owari line of YSR under Yagyu Nobuharu sensei.


Thus far, I've figured this is what is still around:

- Owari line Yagyu Shinkage-ryű

- Edo line Yagyu Shinkage-ryű (Yamato Kai)

- Hikida Shinkage-ryű (Hunter Armstrong)

- Yagyu Shinkage-ryű iaido (?)


So, if anyone could help me detail the lineages (if they are seperate) of this "Shinkage-ryű iaido" organization I have found in Europe. (I've seen the name of "Matsuoka Yoshitaka" (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Amsterdam4.htm quite frequently, so any information about him would also be appreciated.) Here are the websites of a few of the dojo I've come across:


http://www.yushinkan.com/

http://www.tenshokai.be/




I will add more to this list in the future.


Also, I am aware that Hunter Armstrong practices Hikida Shinkage-ryű (not sure if the name is correct) in addition to Yagyu Shinkage-ryű.


Ahh, now I'm confusing myself with all these Shinkage's. If anyone could help me, feel free to post or if you'd prefer, please PM me. I just kind of want to do this for myself so I can know what's going on with the Shinkage practitioners across the world.


Thank you for your patience,

-Alex Dale

Finny
25th May 2005, 06:30
Also, I am aware that Hunter Armstrong practices Hikida Shinkage-ryű (not sure if the name is correct) in addition to Yagyu Shinkage-ryű.

FWIW, I think Hikita Shinkage Ryu is the Shinkage Ryu Mr. Armstrong practices - I dont think he practices Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

But I think I remember reading somewhere that either Kato Isao sensei or his teacher trained in both Hikita Shinkage Ryu and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, so perhaps there are Yagyu Shinkage Ryu influences on Hikita Shinkage Ryu.

I also have heard in a variety of different places that there are a few different lineages which trace themselves back to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but are now independent of the 'mainline'. For example, Dave Lowry's lineage.

Alex Dale
25th May 2005, 13:50
Finny,

I coulda sworn I read something somewhere that he practices both, but at the moment I can't seem to find my source.


As for the breaking off of the mainline, it's all of those splits I want to know about. :) It'd be nice even to get enough qualified people on here to turn this into some kind of sticky for anyone interested.


Regards,


-Alex

Bullbrand
25th May 2005, 14:20
There was this post by Mr Amdur in a previous thread on E-Budo
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=326224&postcount=48
Maybe there is something for you to go on, either in that post or the thread in general.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28131
Hope this helps.
Louis

paul manogue
25th May 2005, 14:49
Hello Alex,

Interesting post, I hope we can get Meik involved.

I do not know anything other than what is on the websites about the gentleman you mention, however it is my personal experience that there are more than a few branches of Yagyu still extant in Japan. One friend of mine there, Furukawa san, trained with the yamato Yagyu kai, as well as in another Yagyu group in Nara. As Furukawa san's family back at least to his great grandfather had all trained in Yagyu I have to believe it was a legitimate branch. I wish I had more information for you, but as I was not a member I did not pay much attention to it, and that group was very hush hush, no dojo sign, no gaijin, and there was no real internet at that time.

Feel free to use the resources at www.yagyu-ryu.org, and yagyu-ryu.com for the edo research, and let me know if I can answer and specific questions.

Alex Dale
27th May 2005, 06:59
Doing some research, I found some good info in a thread I'd forgotten all about.


http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28131&page=1&pp=15

Mr. Marcarelli posted a clip of an email he received from Mr. Hunter Armstrong regarding his line of Shinkage-ryű. Very informative, but what stuck out to me was this:

"...and kept distinct within the Kanbe line..."


This Kanbe line is new to me. Could anyone tell me more about it?


Also, working with Ellis Amdur's list of Shinkage-ryű derivatives, here's what I've got thus far:

- Owari line Yagyu Shinkage-ryű

- Yamato kai, Edo line Yagyu Shinkage-ryű

- The line practiced by Dave Lowry, an offshoot of the mainline (5/6 generations back?)

- An offshoot of the mainline (3/4 generations back?), via Otsubo and Muto Masao

- Hikita Shinkage-ryű, Hunter Armstrong's line.

- Marobashi kai Shinkage-ryű (3/4 generations back?) through Watanabe.

- Kanbe line (?)

- European Shinkage-ryű iaido schools (?) (Matsuoka sensei?)




The rest I felt were not enough Shinkage-ryű to be considered derivatives of the art, rather, perhaps influenced by it.


Was going to post something else... forgot what it was.


But also, one last website I came across:

http://www.shinkageryu.us


Well, that's all I got for now.


Thank you for your patience (thus far, heh),


- Alex Dale

Brian Owens
27th May 2005, 08:06
Alex, you may already know this but in case you don't I thought it might help your research.

Hikida (or Hikita) Shinkage Ryu isn't a branch off the Yagyu line, but a seperate line.

Hikida Bungoro was a student of Kami Izumi Ise no Kami, founder of Shinkage Ryu, and his art has been known variously as Hikida Ryu, Hikida Kage Ryu, and Hikida Shinkage Ryu.

Also, I could be mistaken (and I'm at work now, so can't check), but I think in the DeLange book they mention that the Iaido they are showing is Yagyu Seigo Ryu, not Yagyu Shinkage Ryu per se.

Regarding the Iai/Batto of both, Hunter Armstrong has written, "...in both the Hikida and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, there is either no batto, or it is done as a minor part of the overall kenjutsu training. (In the Yagyu Ryu of Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei, there is no Yagyu Ryu sword-drawing, however, his grandfather developed Yagyu Seigo Ryu batto/iai explicitly for modern purposes. In Hikida Shinkage Ryu, the batto is essentially a preparation for two-person, sword-drawing kenjutsu with shinken, or actual swords, which is closer still to combative reality.)"

(Mr. Armstrong's bio on the SMAA Web site says he practices "Shinkage Ryu Heiho" and Owari Kan Ryu, but doesn't specify which Shinkage Ryu line or lines.)

Lastly, you might also Google on "Shinkage Ryu Bishu" and see what you come up with.

HTH.

George Kohler
27th May 2005, 13:30
- European Shinkage-ryű iaido schools (?) (Matsuoka sensei?)


I believe the branch Matsuoka teaches is the same as De Lange's book. They are both under Akita Moriji.


I asked about Shinkage-ryu iaido book on the iaido list and this is what Mr. Skoss wrote.

What DeLange is doing is an off-shoot of Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu and a fair bit different from what we do in the Yagyukai, under Yagyu Sensei. His teacher, Akita Moriji, is a student of Kashima Kiyotaka, one of the previous
headmaster's (Y. Toshinaga [Gencho]) more senior students. After Gencho S. died and his son, Y. Nobuharu Toshimichi, succeeded him, Kashima S. split off and began teaching on his own.


There are significant differences. For one thing, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, per se,
has never had a iai component and has only ever consisted of kenjutsu, or toho, and hyoho (heiho), which we take to mean military strategy. Iai, or battojutsu as we prefer to call it, is an ancillary form of training and done as a separate entity, Yagyu S. being the 21st headmaster of Y. Shinkage-ryu and the 13th head of Yagyu Seigo-ryu

Brian Owens
27th May 2005, 23:56
I have the De Lange book, Iaido, in front of me now, and here is what it says about Shinkage Ryu Iai:


The Shinkage school of fencing described in this chapter is a fusion of a variety of traditional martial arts, such as Shinkage-ryu Batto Seiho, Seigo-ryu Iai, Sekiguchi Iai, and Rikishin-ryu Iai. [Emphasis added.]

This fusion could be why the techniques resemble, but are not identical to, those taught in other Shinkage Ryu schools.

Regarding the lineage of his branch, it goes on to say:


All of these styles were originally passed on by the Yagyu family. These styles of martial arts were later passed on to Kashima Kiyotaka by Kinji Toshinaga. In 1936, Kashima Kiyotaka, the master pupil of Yagyu Gencho, received permission to teach what he had learned and passed it on to his students under the current name of Shinkage Ryu Iai. It is this style of fencing that has been handed down to us by Kashima's master pupil, Akita Moriji.

Around 1945, a number of different names were still in vogue to describe Shinkage-ryu Iai, such as Yagyu-ryu Iai, Shinkage-ryu Heiho Iai, and Yagyu Seigo-ryu Iai. By 1955, however, all of these names had been united into the new name of Shinkage-ryu Iai.

From this it appears that "Shinkage Ryu Iai" is a post-WWII name for the Iai of Kashima Kiyotaka and his line.

HTH.

Alex Dale
28th May 2005, 05:06
Wow, thank you very much! I don't know how I missed that the first few times I read through this book.


Regards,

Mekugi
29th May 2005, 09:36
Just as a note, Mr. Matsuoka has further branched away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group, although he is still in Nagoya and has many buyu within that dojo. He does a lot of work with the European Kendo Association and teaches his version of the Yagyu Seigo Ryu Iai kata. Mr. Matsuoka sometimes shows up to the place I practice SMR, so I get to see him once in while and he is a nice guy.

-Russ

Joris
26th August 2006, 14:57
Just as a note, Mr. Matsuoka has further branched away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group, although he is still in Nagoya and has many buyu within that dojo. He does a lot of work with the European Kendo Association and teaches his version of the Yagyu Seigo Ryu Iai kata. -Russ

Hi all,

since I do not quite understand what you mean by "branching away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group" (who are they?), I hope I can clear up the bit concerning my teacher, Matsuoka sensei. Matsuoka sensei currently represents the main line, if there is such a thing after all, of the Shinkage ryu lineage through Kashima sensei and Akita sensei. The technical part of De Lange's book is about this ryuha. As you can read on another E-Budo thread, Shinkage ryu is based on Yagyu Shinkage ryu hyoho (kumitachi), Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu ("iai"), and other koryu jujutsu ryuha with a batto curriculum.

Matsuoka sensei's dojo is in Iwakura. Besides, he is the chief teacher in a dojo in Nagoya, and in Kasugai. Since he succeeded Akita sensei as president of the Aichi Kendo Renmei, Iaido Branch, he supervises many ZenKenRen iai events in and around Nagoya as well. Matsuoka sensei also has pupils in France and The Netherlands. His next
Shinkage ryu iaido seminar (http://www.shinkageryu.nl/img/3rd%Murugai.pdf) will be in Rotterdam, 7-8 October 2006. You're all invited, of course!

Since Kashima sensei had other pupils alongside with Akita sensei (such as his own son, and Kobayashi sensei, and Mori sensei etc.), in turn, the pupils of these other teachers these days teach in many dojo in Aichi and Gifu. Their waza are more or less the same, but their performance and appearance has grown slightly apart by now - which was only to be expected, and that's the way it's always been. Some of them even started to call their version of Shinkage ryu "Yagyu Shinkage ryu," which, of course, is quite impossible, since they have nothing to do whatsoever with Nobuharu sensei's Yagyukai.

Anyway, hope this helps. Take care!

Mekugi
27th August 2006, 04:56
Hi all,

since I do not quite understand what you mean by "branching away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group" (who are they?)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uyp9K2GgW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ksvAEaWNzQ

Joris
27th August 2006, 09:30
Thank you, Russ. But... there still seems to be some kind of misunderstanding here. As has been observed more than once on these fora, there's never been such a thing called Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido. The "iai" practised by Nobuharu sensei's Yagyukai is called Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu. However, I am aware of the fact that some Aichi and Gifu ZenKenRen or ZNIR related groups call what they do Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido nowadays. Since the videos definitely show some branch of Shinkage ryu iaido, not Yagyu Seigo ryu batto, my question remains...: who are they? I have never had the opportunity to meet Mori sensei in person, so this could even be his group performing. Maybe you can clarify this bit for me? Thanks and bye for now,

Mekugi
27th August 2006, 10:18
Thank you, Russ. But... there still seems to be some kind of misunderstanding here. As has been observed more than once on these fora, there's never been such a thing called Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido. The "iai" practised by Nobuharu sensei's Yagyukai is called Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu. However, I am aware of the fact that some Aichi and Gifu ZenKenRen or ZNIR related groups call what they do Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido nowadays. Since the videos definitely show some branch of Shinkage ryu iaido, not Yagyu Seigo ryu batto, my question remains...: who are they? I have never had the opportunity to meet Mori sensei in person, so this could even be his group performing. Maybe you can clarify this bit for me? Thanks and bye for now,

Not with me there isn't. Where exactly did I say Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Iai or how does this relate to me in any way?

If you really want to know who these folks are, talk to Mr. Matsuoka.

-Russ

Joris
27th August 2006, 10:25
Well, the video title is "Shinkage ryu iaido (Yagyu Seigo ryu)," that's all. I just thought the videos were yours, Russ, sorry... But maybe there is someone else online who knows which group is performing the enbu here?

Mekugi
27th August 2006, 10:46
Well, the video title is "Shinkage ryu iaido (Yagyu Seigo ryu)," that's all. I just thought the videos were yours, Russ, sorry... But maybe there is someone else online who knows which group is performing the enbu here?

They are mine. As you know, the title idoes not read "Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido." The group in question calls what they do "Shinkage Ryu Iaijutsu" and "Yagyu Seigo Ryu Batto". Let me re-state that I never used, said or wrote the title : "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Iaido."
The kancho of this group is Mr. Kashima.

-Russ

Joris
27th August 2006, 10:56
Thank you! I thought they weren't that secret :-(... By the way, I wasn't referring to Kashima Seiji sensei's group concerning the use of the Yagyu family name. But now I understand what you meant by "branching away." If you consider Kashima Kiyotaka sensei's son to be the main "Shinkage ryu" line under all his deshi (Akita sensei, Matsuoka sensei's teacher, among them), then, yes, everyone else has "branced away." Are you training with Kashima sensei yourself?

(By the way: why are you so worried about my relationship with Matsuoka sensei? You really don't have to be... ;-)

Mekugi
27th August 2006, 14:27
Thank you! I thought they weren't that secret :-(

Just because you don't know who they are doesn't make them a secret. You do drop names without really knowing who you're talking about, though. It also seems that you are fishing for information.


By the way, I wasn't referring to Kashima Seiji sensei's group concerning the use of the Yagyu family name.

So then what are you talking about?


But now I understand what you meant by "branching away."If you consider Kashima Kiyotaka sensei's son to be the main "Shinkage ryu" line under all his deshi (Akita sensei, Matsuoka sensei's teacher, among them), then, yes, everyone else has "branced away."

Mr. Matsuoka started his own group.


Are you training with Kashima sensei yourself?

Nope I don't train with him. Why would you even remotely think that I did?


(By the way: why are you so worried about my relationship with Matsuoka sensei? You really don't have to be... ;-)

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Joris
27th August 2006, 16:01
Russ, I'll try to send you a private message to clear things out. I don't think anyone here is interested in this kind of stuff...

Mekugi
27th August 2006, 17:14
Russ, I'll try to send you a private message to clear things out. I don't think anyone here is interested in this kind of stuff...

Neither am I. Don't bother, I really don't care.

Josh Reyer
1st October 2008, 09:00
I was just bopping through some older threads and came across this exchange:


To demonstrate further levels of diversity within an art like Shinkage-ryu, look also at the line of Shinkage-ryu taught within Owari kan-ryu and the "original" Shinkage-ryu (according to Kuroda Tetsuzan) of Komagawa kaishin-ryu. BTW, it is my understanding that "Kage-ryu" was succeeded by the Yagyu family, who re-named it "Shinkage-ryu" (and later "Yagyu shinkage-ryu") have been passing it down within through family transmission since. While Shinkage-ryu may have changed over the generations, it's my understanding that Yagyu shinkage-ryu is respected as the mainline tradition.

Christopher Covington then offered the following clarification:


Dear Nathan, et al,

There are and were many lines of Shinkage-ryu and they all seem to claim they are the "mainline." Shinkage-ryu is really the product of Kamiizumi. Kamiizumi studied Aisu Kage-ryu and later changed it to Shinkage-ryu. Two of his sons had lines of Shinkage-ryu, one just called Shinkage-ryu (I think?) and the other Kamiizumi-ryu. Both are dead ryu so who knows what they're like. They have a claim to the mainline because of family connection. Many people believe the Yagyu line to be the most complete, or the closest to the finished product of what Kamiizumi wanted to do with his art. Kamiizumi's nephew Hikida is said to be his strongest follower. The Okuyama line (Jikishinkage-ryu) is the oldest, as Okuyama studied with Kamiizumi before any of the other major line's founders. Anyway, just about all the lines when you ask them what art they study they'll say "Shinkage-ryu."

I've just been reading Shoden Shinkage-ryu, the history of (Yagyu) Shinkage-ryu written by Yagyu Toshinaga, as well as some of the historical volumes by Imamura Yoshio, such as Shiryo Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, which is a collection of Sengoku and Edo period documents related to YSR, so I thought I'd offer further clarification. A lot of this stuff isn't in English, and what is is often slightly muddled or mistaken.

As Christopher notes, Kamiizumi Hidetsuna, practitioner of Shinto-ryu, Nen-ryu, and Aisu Ikosai's Kage-ryu, developed Shinkage-ryu and named it thus because he felt his breakthrough came chiefly from Kage-ryu. This is attested is the Empi-no-Tachi scrolls that he wrote and gave to Yagyu Munetoshi (Sekishusai), and Marume Kurando.

"Yagyu Shinkage-ryu" has never been the name of Shinkage-ryu as passed through the Yagyu family. In the densho written by Munetoshi, Munenori, and all of the Owari-line, it has always simply been "Shinkage-ryu Heiho". The first time the term Yagyu Shinkage-ryu was ever used by a Yagyu was when Yagyu Nobuharu-sensei used it in the title of a lecture, purely as a concession to popular nomenclature (and for the same reason, the official site uses "Yagyu Shinkage-ryu"). However, as far as practitioners are concerned, it's simply Shinkage-ryu.

In many Owari-han documents, it's referred to as "Yagyu-ryu" by non-practitioners, likely as a way of distinguishing it from other "Shinkage-ryu" (of various kanji combinations) also being taught in the han. In early pre-war lectures, 20th soke Yagyu Toshinaga used the term to refer to concepts developed and handed down by the Yagyu family to distinguish them from "Shoden Shinkage-ryu Heiho" -- Shinkage-ryu as believed passed down by Kamiizumi.

While Shinkage-ryu has passed down through the Yagyu family, the position of head of the school has been also passed down among certain Lords of Owari-han. The 4th soke in the lineage, for example, is Tokugawa Yoshinao, first lord of Owari-han. His son, Mitsutomo, was highly skilled in Shinkage-ryu and was later named 6th soke. The Owari Tokugawa family continued to study Shinkage-ryu with the Yagyu family up until the war.

Interestingly, in a number of very early Hikita Kage-ryu documents, the lineage begins with Aisu Ikosai, rather than Kamiizumi as most Shinkage-ryu documents do. One might surmise that Hikita's training was primarily in Kage-ryu, before Kamiizumi made his changes and began calling it Shinkage-ryu.

Shinkage-ryu "official" history in the Yagyu family (as detailed in Shoden Shinkage-ryu) is that Kamiizumi made Munetoshi his successor with the ichikoku-ichinin inkajo, and all other "Shinkage" and "Kage" ryus are off-shoots. In my personal opinion, though, historically it's probably more likely that Munetoshi was one of a number of high-level students, and there wasn't really the concept of a "mainline" or "soke" at the time for Munetoshi to inherit.

George Kohler
1st October 2008, 14:13
The Owari Tokugawa family continued to study Shinkage-ryu with the Yagyu family up until the war.

For clarification, which war are you referring too?

Josh Reyer
1st October 2008, 14:24
For clarification, which war are you referring too?

My apologies. I meant World War II.