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Kit LeBlanc
13th April 2001, 02:22
Hey People,


I am posting this over from the Aikido Board as it addresses LVNR and some other points that should be viewed in CQB as well.

Originally posted by Sillal

****You would be wrong that the sleeper is difficult to get on a subject. In fact it is remarkably easy as they usually have no real training. It is by far the most effective and safest way that a violent subject could be handled by a smaller officer. ****

(snip) Have you seen this to be true in a structured class style enviornment or on the street. If the latter do you have any experience with using this method to restrain very aggresive opponents who are facing you with an intent to kill or seriously injure you? (snip)



I have experience restraining very aggressive opponents, a few whom I can say were trying very much to hurt me, and I mean on the street, not on the mat. While I have only just recently been certified by my department to use LVNR in the field, I have used a similar configuration in facial pressure point restraint (face crank to you MMA folks) on several occasions and found it to work quite well. It is also quite easy to apply even on aggressive subjects. It is a small adjustment to apply LVNR instead. LVNR will result in less of a chance of injury.

I am placing my confidence in LVNR for street use mainly due to its proven effectiveness and to what I saw in training it. KCPD has extensive documentation of its use since the '70's, with all sizes and strengths of officers against all sizes and strengths of suspects, and found it to both bring violent subjects under control quickly and LESSEN the injuries associated with combative incidents. My department has a large number of lateral hires from departments all across the country, and particularly large group of Californians. They used a carotid restraint regularly in California (NOT LVNR which is a trademarked, specific system). They related that they were shocked that we were not using such control methods in the Pac NW because it had been repeatedly proven to be easy to apply and quick to establish control against all manner of suspects without serious injury, if any at all.

So, yeah, it works.



(snip)Also are methods of dealing with an opponents strikes to get into a position to use this techinque taught or deemed necessary in Police training?(snip)



LVNR is an adjunct to other police defensive tactics training, it is not a compete system. Police defensive tactics have a variety of options in dealing with a striker.....hit him back, kick him, hit him with a baton, etc. In an altercation, a variant of the basic transition from front position to LVNR could easily be used to "get to the suspect's back." Most likely, basing this on my experience, you will at some point get to a position where you can use the LVNR.



(snip) In the teaching of this technique are issues such as striking the back of the opponents leg to "shorten" him, and taking the opponent to the ground covered? (snip)



These EXACT situations are dealt with in LVNR training. They also work against the common counters expected from martial artists and wrestlers. LVNR does not make you a superhero, and I do not think that a lesser trained/skilled/aggressive officer will be able to always, 100% make it work against a highly skilled grappler, for instance, but no technique is 100%. Personally I believe that a police officer that is not regularly training at the range and in DT/martial arts is asking for it, though, and no technique will make practice obsolete.



(snip)I'm curious how the training methods of the Police dept. equate to the same techniques trained in jujutsu and taijutsu.

Thanks,

Lance Bogs (snip)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aaahhh, a question after my own heart, though I admit I am starting to sound like a broken record making these same arguments repeatedly.

Traditional/classical jujutsu has a great deal to offer police. I must disagree with the idea sometimes expressed by jujutsuka that it is "only meant for killing" and " too dangerous to use in police work," "it will mean lawsuits, excessive force, etc."

Only if you misunderstand police work. I can tell you right now that if I ever deal with a suspect trying to kill me, he is no longer a suspect but an enemy. I will do what I have to end that encounter as quickly as possible. The "danger" in traditional jujutsu techniques is no longer an issue. I am going home that night.

That being said, why are so many osae-waza, hojo-jutsu, etc. taught in traditional jujutsu? Because they realized that sometimes they took prisoners, they didn't always draw the tanto and cut his throat. Hojo jutsu and other control positions are used regularly in handcuffing prone subjects. For example, a friend sent me a copy of Sekiguchi-ryu writings and traditional pictures and I can find many techniques and control positions I use regularly in making arrests.

As far as "battlefield" jujtutsu, uke attacks, tori defends with an arm bar breaking a joint, and pins. Tori then draws his tanto and stabs uke in the throat. I can do the same sequence, omit the knife, and place the guy in a control position for cuffing. If he is attacking me and I have the right to bar his arm, if I break it, so be it. The degree of injury is immaterial if the use of the force itself is legal and reasonable. (Read that last carefully before you flame me....)

Take the same sequence, only now he goes for my gun. I can use weapon retention/controlling combined, access a backup weapon (I carry knives) and use probably the same sequence in the classical kata to save my life.

I have been shown pinning from different koryu kata from friends in different ryu, and did a classical grappling art myself for a little bit, and found that often these methods are perfectly suited to the control and arrest of a combative suspect. Certainly I do not bar choke (you bet I would in a lethal force situation...), I do not break a guys arm if I have him under control (just like in practicing kata we don't always break that joint even though we could...) in the majority of situations. I do not have to. Should I have to, there are plenty of things from traditional schools that I could use.


Kit Leblanc

Daniel Lee
13th April 2001, 02:37
Hi Kit,

Maybe we could take this next question to another thread, but how is LVNR trademarked, and, I suppose, legally protected? Does this trademark imply an exclusive use by the trademark owners in the instruction of the method? This is an interesting step in modern combatives where some administrations think they "own" the technology being taught to their staff.

Kit LeBlanc
13th April 2001, 13:18
Daniel,

They don't own the concept of carotid restraints, obviously, but simply their very specific three step method of applying the technique. That is what has been proven in field research and what is court-defensible.

It is different from the usual naked choke(s) you see in jujutsu and judo, and is tailored to both escalating and de-escalating the use of force depending on the level of resistance. They are very clear in the class that you cannot go out and use carotids or gi strangles and call it "LVNR,"" mainly to protect themselves, and the officer's that use the method, legally.


Kit

Stephenjudoka
14th April 2001, 22:02
Hi Kit,

The use of any neck restraint for the British Police has been stopped for many years.

Once upon a time there were several neck restraints taught in the Police system.

However after an offender was accidentally killed by a Police Officer (who held on so tight for so long - because he was scared to let go) the Home Office stopped the practice.

I must say I agree with this. Although I have used neck restraints on the streets and found them very successful. I could get them almost from any position. (I have been a Judo player since I was 11 years old).

I found officers were very dangerous when using neck restraints - not knowing how much pressure to apply or when to let go.

I have stopped using them because of the Home Office and National Police Training guidelines.

I can not see the use of neck restraints ever being re-introduced into the Police system in this country.

Stephen Sweetlove.

Neil Hawkins
15th April 2001, 02:19
They are banned in Australia as well.

A security guard killed a guy some years ago, the neck restraint was not tight enough to kill him, but the fact that he was lying face down on the ground with three security guys on his back, along with the neck hold, stress and adrenaline cause him to have a minor seizure. The guards thought he was struggling and tighten everything up and he had an embolism and died.

Poor training mostly and very avoidable, the coroner said that it was a combination and no blame was officially placed on the guy with the neck hold specifically. But it became a rallying point and I can't see them bringing it back either.

Neil

George Ledyard
15th April 2001, 16:57
Originally posted by Daniel Lee
Hi Kit,

Maybe we could take this next question to another thread, but how is LVNR trademarked, and, I suppose, legally protected? Does this trademark imply an exclusive use by the trademark owners in the instruction of the method? This is an interesting step in modern combatives where some administrations think they "own" the technology being taught to their staff.

The term is trademarked and is owned by Al Lindell. If you want use his technique and have his organization stand behind you in court you need to be certified by an LVNR Instructor (which gets you a realy nice T-shirt). But if any certified user gets involved in legal action due to the use of the technique they will send an expert witness to testify on the technique and its safety using 15 years of statistics which the Kansas City Police have kept in detail.

Obviously, anyone well trained in the variety of carotid restraints would be effective but in the leagl world you are far safer if some respected organization stands behind you rather than hundreds of years of martial arts tradition which no one understands and the police are actually threatened by.

George Ledyard
15th April 2001, 17:07
Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
Hi Kit,

The use of any neck restraint for the British Police has been stopped for many years.

Once upon a time there were several neck restraints taught in the Police system.

However after an offender was accidentally killed by a Police Officer (who held on so tight for so long - because he was scared to let go) the Home Office stopped the practice.

I must say I agree with this. Although I have used neck restraints on the streets and found them very successful. I could get them almost from any position. (I have been a Judo player since I was 11 years old).

I found officers were very dangerous when using neck restraints - not knowing how much pressure to apply or when to let go.

I have stopped using them because of the Home Office and National Police Training guidelines.

I can not see the use of neck restraints ever being re-introduced into the Police system in this country.

Stephen Sweetlove.

I have wondered about the training hich is received by officers in the UK. Since they still largely don't carry firearms I was wondering how much and what type of Defensive Tactics training they get both initially and in-service.

I actually took a Quick Cuff Instructor course a number of years ago so I am familiar with the use of the cuffs to establish control. But if the neck restraints aren't used any more what techniues are commonly used? How much training do they get.

TIM BURTON
15th April 2001, 23:02
Hi George,
Police officers in the UK receive Officer Protection input during their initial training, probationary period and yearly during their service.
National Police Training (NPT) provide the Officer Protection Manual, which is taught in full to all instructors. The manual provides the Chief Constable of each force in the UK with a menu of techniques that can be fully or partly employed by their officers to suit the needs/preferences of policing that particular area. A Constabulary also equips its own officers as it sees fit.
The Basic System taught is as follows.
THE LAW.
Knowledge of legislation.
Application of legislation.
Incident reporting/clerical.
VITAL INFORMATION.
Neck restraints.
Positional Asphyxia.
Excited Delirium.
First Aid/aftercare.
TACTICAL COMMUNICATIONS.
Effects of presence.
Methods of listening.
Methods of talking.
Using reason/appeal.
THE CONFLICT RESOLUTION MODEL
Offender behaviour patterns.
Reasonable officer responses.
Impact factors.
Perceived appropriate responses.
UNARMED TACTICS.
Body targets.
Body weapons.
Spontaneous edged weapon defence.
USE OF EQUIPMENT.
Generic friction lock batons.
Generic positive lock batons.
Generic side handle batons.
Incapacitant sprays.
Generic rigid handcuffs.

During training the officers are exposed to scenario based situations that allow them to judge a reasonable response or experience a result of an ineffectual response.
In the UK there is no legislation that allows an officer to handcuff a suspect, there are only guidelines. A police officer must justify each use of force’s appropriateness against the resistance faced.
Thankfully talking still resolves about 90% of all situations in the UK.

Stephenjudoka
16th April 2001, 15:56
Yes Tim has replied to your question. However I would like to add that certain forces and specialist units have more regular self defence training. For eg: Beds Police officers get refresher training 2 hours every month.

Specialist units get training in self defence techniques once a week.(Plus all the other training needed to be part of the unit - including fitness testing)

You will find self defence, officer safety or defensive tactics (All mean the same) are taken very seriously by British Police officers mainly because we are in the main unarmed.

The system used at the moment is being revised and a new Officer Safety mannual is due out in the next few months.
We are all looking forward to seeing it.

Thanks for your interest.

Stephen Sweetlove

Kevin73
21st April 2001, 17:35
Is the LVNR taught the same as the lateral vasclar neck restraint taught in PPCT? If so I would say that it is very effective as a technique and is not only found in grappling styles but in Kenpo as well. The technique is called 'the sleeper' and uses a straight right punch from the attacker to set it up.

In our dept. the technique is considered lethal force (used to be lower) so we can not use it unless it is a life/death situation.