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View Full Version : $$$ vs. the Art



Sillal
17th April 2001, 14:43
I am curious what peoples opinions are regarding martial arts training (particularly in America where I live). I have found pretty much two types of instructors/schools since I began training.

Their are the "McDojo's" whom no matter their starting intentions, exist to make money (generally teaching martial arts is their job). Then their are teachers whose goals tend to be more focused on teaching the art, without contaminating in (usually they have a day job).

Now these are just brief observations, and their are of course people that fall all in-between these two.

My overall experience though, is that people who teach for money must market themselves, and keep their students entertained to keep them around so they maintain revenue, which means that often times the basics/fundamentals (boring stuff) is not emphasized over the flashier techniques.

On the other hand my work with instructors, some of which do not even own/rent a Dojo tend to focus far more on basics, to build a solid foundation in the art they are teaching.

I am curious to hear from instructors who run schools professionally, and those who teach and work a "day job."

Also I would like to hear from students who have had experiences in both types of schools, and see what their impressions were.

Thanks,

Lance Boggs

Billy
18th April 2001, 15:00
While I do not appreciate the contract system, I want to say that contracts, for the most part became necessary because of the countless number of thieves who did not pay their own way on an honor based system.

One such example, one I’m sure you can relate to Lance, is: Once upon a time there was a person (a member of e-budo in fact) who attend two classes I provided - yep, he decided not to pay for those classes. This person was granted the courtesy of trust and was invited to train with responsible people... too bad the integrity of the trustworthy didn’t rub off on him. I am however, grateful that his qualities (if you regard them as such) did not rub off on the others.

Getting to the issue of cost, I’m not sure I understand your position. Within my 27 years of MA training I have never received a free lesson nor I have I ever had a piece of training equipment provided to me without cost.

A position within an average seminar sells for $60/day and up (usually up). Taikai; by the time you factor in airfare, food and lodging will set you back close to $1k. Considering Japan? Now you’re talking serious money. Yearly dues, translation services, not to mention the costs associated with rank alone is all is quite staggering.

While there’s no way to estimate the cost of my training over the years, I would venture to say that my mortgage would be nonexistent if this money had been placed there instead. To me, it seems that you’re stating we should be allowed to skate through life free of all costs. I can only respond by saying that there is now way to affix a price tag on that which I have received - especially where training is concerned.

Ninpo can provide everything we need within life, which includes financial considerations and the people who seek to provide for themselves and their family while serving their community should not be condemned for making this their occupation.

It's really not that big of an issue. There are alternatives to what you label as “McDojo’s” (sic) and, taking everything into consideration one should make a decision on where they want to train based upon personal preference. Either way, there will be dues to pay in one form or another. If the dues are based on a contract, then one should be willing to carry out their contracted agreement. If the dues - whatever they may be - are based on the honor system, then one should do the honorable thing.

Hope it helps.

Billy Shearer
Bujinkan Zenka Dojo

gmanry
18th April 2001, 15:24
People these days conveniently forget that vast fortunes (for their times) were spent by many great budoka learning their arts. Many masters of old charged by the technique!

I read once that Ueshiba was paying upwards of $350 per technique (Japanese equivalent at that time!). Meaning that the same price today would be considerably more, just to learn tenkan, or shihonage and some of its variations.

Now, commercialism in America has definitely done its share of injury to the martial arts, but that is due to charlatans with little actual knowledge leading what amount to boot camp pushup fests rather than teaching martial arts.

Skilled instructors deserve to be compensated for their time and effort if that is their desire. The preponderance of university classes, often but certainly not always taught by relatively inexperienced individuals, as well as YMCA courses (same issue) have offered the impression that expert instruction is available at a pittance.

In Japan, people pay by the class. A friend of mine used to pat $150 US per month and that was in 1991! He was quite skilled and was a top competitor in Japan at the time, being featured in a few articles in fight magazines. He paid that amount, was expected to help teach classes, and trained sometimes until well past midnight.

Martial arts requires sacrifice on many levels, one of which is financial. Now, if you are not getting what you thought you were paying for, then find another instructor. We have a misconception that a martial arts master is just a drive around the corner.

Just my $.02 and I am not meaning to suggest that anyone here thinks this way, because I don't know if that is true.

Glenn R. Manry

gmanry
18th April 2001, 15:29
People these days conveniently forget that vast fortunes (for their times) were spent by many great budoka learning their arts. Many masters of old charged by the technique!

I read once that Ueshiba was paying upwards of $350 per technique (Japanese equivalent at that time!). Meaning that the same price today would be considerably more, just to learn tenkan, or shihonage and some of its variations.

Now, commercialism in America has definitely done its share of injury to the martial arts, but that is due to charlatans with little actual knowledge leading what amount to boot camp pushup fests rather than teaching martial arts.

Skilled instructors deserve to be compensated for their time and effort if that is their desire. The preponderance of university classes, often but certainly not always taught by relatively inexperienced individuals, as well as YMCA courses (same issue) have offered the impression that expert instruction is available at a pittance.

In Japan, people pay by the class. A friend of mine used to pay $150 US per month and that was in 1991! He was quite skilled and was a top competitor in Japan at the time, being featured in a few articles in fight magazines. He paid that amount, was expected to help teach classes, and trained sometimes until well past midnight.

Martial arts requires sacrifice on many levels, one of which is financial. Now, if you are not getting what you thought you were paying for, then find another instructor. We have a misconception that a martial arts master is just a drive around the corner.

Just my $.02 and I am not meaning to suggest that anyone here thinks this way, because I don't know if that is true.

Glenn R. Manry

Devon Smith
18th April 2001, 17:25
I don't think there are enough consistencies from one school to the next to formulate any kind of correlation between cost and training. Simply said, one is not necessarily going to get what one pays for, and it's often a two-way street. Some folks teach for free, others teach for big bucks, and everywhere in-between lie huge differences in what may be perceived as "the quality of instruction".

Ultimately, each and every person has to assess the value of the training and instruction for themselves, just like they do when buying a car, taking a vacation, etc.

The big problem is when deception is involved, i.e. a person spending sums of money learning from someone who misrepresents themselves, be it rank, affiliation or otherwise. The lies make the personal assessment of values unfounded and useless...that deception is just as damaging and wrong as selling a used car after having rolled back the odometer.

George Ledyard
18th April 2001, 17:29
I started on this answer and then started over as it was way too lengthy. I have a lot to say on this topic as I have agonized over these issues for many years. How do I devote the amount of time to my training that I wish and still have enough time for my family? The only way was to combine my career with my training. So I am a professional instructor. I teach Aikido at my own school as as an extension of that experience I also teach Police Defensive Tactics both at my own school and for various law enforcement and security agencies. The main focus of my efforts and the primary source of my income is teaching Aikido. This has allowed me to put far more hours on the mat than my counterparts who teach part time.

Here are the lessons I have learned over 12 years of having my own school.

1) the marketing tools used by the commercial places bring in students; that's why they use them. I realized that most of us were so put off by these commercial schools that we were ignoring things that they did that could work for us without watering down the training at all. You can use those tools as well without apology. If your school is to be healthy you need students.

2) Every martial arts business publication I get states that you should never collect your own dues. Of course my school and every one I ever trained at did it's own collections. Putting too much emphasis on timely payment of fees was seen as commercial and tacky. In fact we kind of were apologetic about charging at all. Every month we'd have almost a $1000 that we didn't even know if were ever coming in. I couldn't tell you how much money I would actually make in any given month. That put tremendous pressure on me from the home front because it was the last of the dues that comes in each month that pays the instructor. The first of the dues pays the bills. So last year we went to a system of tuition agreements and pay a company to do the collections. Should have done it ten years ago.

Rather than make the place more commercial it has made it less. After a student enrolls I very seldom ever have to talk about money at all. I get to put more energy into teaching and not so much tracking down the income that is due. Finally, having a system where we ask people to make at least a 12 Month commitment at a time has served to get people to really reflect on their own commitment so it weeds out the people who are less serious. They have a three month Trail membership period so they have plenty of time to decide. But after that if they expect the dojo to take the time and make the effort to invest in their training they have to make a commitment to the dojo.
I am very happy with the system and I think the training at our dojo has not suffered one iota because we are doing this.

3) Saotome Sensei has pointed out over the years that in America money is a measure that everyone understands. If you charge too little for your training people don't respect it or treat it seriously. He has put a strong emphasis on training "professional instructors". These are people who were specifically trained to be teachers of the art and whose commitment to the art is total meaning that they have to be good enough that they can survive supporting themselves as teachers. That was the model he was trained under at Hombu Dojo wher he was a professional in training as an uchideshi.

It is important to realize that just as having a dojo that is running efficiently on a solid business basis isn't automatically a sign that the training is watered down or that there isn't any spiritual component to the practice, it is equally true that having a part-time instructor means that you are getting the full meal deal from your training. A lot of time amatuer instructors mean just that, amatuer instruction.

4) The model differs from art to art. If you look at the Koryu, the training is difficult, more arcane from the average person's view, less appropriate for mass instruction. So it is almost impossible for teachers of the classical arts to support themselves by teaching heir arts. But if you look at the backgrounds of the teachers you will find that each of them spent many years when they basically devoted themselves totally to their training. Usually they journeyed to Japan to do this and worked at whatever would pay the bills so they could train.

Arts such as Aikido are more accesible to the public. They lend themselves to transmission on mutiple levels which makes it possible to teach larger numbers of people. So it becomes possible to teach on a professional level. If you look at the number of classical practitioners you will see that a number of them are supported by teaching arts such as Aikido and then are able by extension to train and teach in classical styles that have smaller appeal to the public. The dojos which are strong from an enrollment and business standpoint become the ground for the preservation of arts that are less commercially viable.

There are many talented and serious people out there teaching as professionals. There are certainly talented teachers out there who aren't professionals. Take look at the commitment of the teacher to the art. Do they still train? Does their background include a substantial time period(s) in which most of their efforts went into their training? Do they seem to embody the values that you aspire to in your own life? If so give them a try.

Sillal
18th April 2001, 18:24
Thanks to all of you for the info. Since I have never ran a school, or taught I was looking for an idea of the mindset behind dues/contracts etc...

It has always been my opinion that instructors who had a day job would be more focused towards teaching the proper way of the art, I never thought about the issue of making time for your family as one of the reasons you would teach as an occupation. That makes the effort seem less greedy, and more practical as family is very important.

I guess overall it will depend upon the individual instructor and school.

As to the one rude post include, I would simply ask that you actually read posts before you address them, since my intention if posting was to find out information. I never asserted that my opinions were correct I was simply sharing my experiences and asking for those who have been teaching and training longer than I.

Thanks again,

Lance Boggs

Robert Wolfe
4th May 2001, 17:29
One thing about which I'm curious...

When using a tuition service, what happens when there is a loyal member of the dojo who -- because of some temporary situation such as the loss of a job -- is unable to pay tuition for a period of time? Obviously, one doesn't want to see the tuition service turning the student's account over to a collection agency.

Do the tuition services provide some mechanism for cutting a student a break when circumstances warrant?

George Ledyard
5th May 2001, 14:06
Originally posted by Robert Wolfe
One thing about which I'm curious...

When using a tuition service, what happens when there is a loyal member of the dojo who -- because of some temporary situation such as the loss of a job -- is unable to pay tuition for a period of time? Obviously, one doesn't want to see the tuition service turning the student's account over to a collection agency.

Do the tuition services provide some mechanism for cutting a student a break when circumstances warrant?

I deal with the Affiliated Acceptance Corp. I can recommend them highly. Generally you set the tone and the collection service follows. This is a very, very competitive business. If you are dissatisfied then you could find another service within minutes just by looking at one of the trade journals which you as a dojo owner get all the time. So they need to keep you happy.

In my case I am flexible. The student needs to let me know what is going on but I can suspend, reduce, cancel as needed if I have to. In some cases students didn't come to me but I found out that they were having problems and was able to cancel their payemnts. In some cases I simply let them do various functions around the dojo instead of paying tuition. There are in some cases fairly modest fees to cancel a long trem agreement but it's not enough that I bother passing it on to the student usually.

The agreements are nice because people treat them more seriously than they do ordinary dues collection by the dojo people. Since they act more responsibly you don't have to deal with it as much and everybody is happier. I have had no complaints about the system. People respond to our assertion that we are trying to run a serious school here and we feel that it isn't too much to ask for some level of commitment from a student. People seem to get that. Of course our Trial Membership is three whole months so they have plentof time to back out before they make a commitment.

Robert Wolfe
5th May 2001, 19:35
Thanks!

A number of instructors I respect have told me that they signed with a tuition service after long and troubled deliberation, and then found that their schools were almost instantly transformed -- attrition cut dramatically, and financial security assured. I'm told they wish they'd done it sooner.

I'm still in the deliberation stage...

Claire Bartlett
8th May 2001, 17:24
I have limited experience with both the full time martial arts dojo and a community centre class where the instructors have day jobs. The cost is only slightly less for the community centre but there is no contract. The dojo definitely emphasizes basics basics basics. They don't adopt the latest trend in order to attract students. The community centre is less formal, but it is a different art so maybe it just lends itself to that style of teaching. But again it isn't trendy. It really depends where you go, either situation can be good or bad.
Most people don't know what to look for, what makes a "good" school, what questions to ask. That's why forums like this are so valuable. Even if you do do some research and find something you like; dojos are dynamic, changing places. Policies change, people come and go; there are no guarantees.
I have no difficulty paying for expertise. That being said, the following complaint is all too common. Suppose you've checked the credentials, format, curriculum and found something that you think is a good fit. You start training only to find out that your classes are not run by the head instructor, who's credentials were satisfactory. Quite often classes are run by a kyu belt. Sure this person may know more than you, but are they worth the money, is that what you paid for? They may know technique, but do they know how to teach? Are they just there because they have to be or do they have an honest desire to help others learn? If you signed a contract, were you made aware at the time that you might be taught by people who have no teaching experience? Often the contracts are so vague that the instructors can pretty much ask you to wash their car and call it "training". The problems don't always surface during the 3 month trial period. By the time they do, students have invested a lot of time, energy and money. You've made friends, commitments and sacrifices. So your choice is to stay and put up or hope things get better or leave and start all over somewhere else. I think instructors know that students are reluctant to leave and will sometimes hang on a year or two just to get the Black Belt.

Just my two cents.
Claire

George Ledyard
9th May 2001, 15:03
Originally posted by Claire Bartlett
. I have no difficulty paying for expertise. That being said, the following complaint is all too common. Suppose you've checked the credentials, format, curriculum and found something that you think is a good fit. You start training only to find out that your classes are not run by the head instructor, who's credentials were satisfactory. Quite often classes are run by a kyu belt. Sure this person may know more than you, but are they worth the money, is that what you paid for? They may know technique, but do they know how to teach? Are they just there because they have to be or do they have an honest desire to help others learn? If you signed a contract, were you made aware at the time that you might be taught by people who have no teaching experience? Often the contracts are so vague that the instructors can pretty much ask you to wash their car and call it "training". The problems don't always surface during the 3 month trial period. By the time they do, students have invested a lot of time, energy and money. You've made friends, commitments and sacrifices. So your choice is to stay and put up or hope things get better or leave and start all over somewhere else. I think instructors know that students are reluctant to leave and will sometimes hang on a year or two just to get the Black Belt.

Just my two cents.
Claire

The issues you describe should not be issues at a well run school. For instance at my own dojo we have a very stable schedule and the students know exactly what nights I teach and what nights my instructors teach. We are a mature school so all of the people teaching adult classes are Yudansha (we occasionally plug in the up and coming Brown belts as subs for their experience). I can't understand how you would after three months of Trial membership at a school you would have any questions about who you would be training with. That's bad structure on the part of the school.

No one that I know who does Tuition Agreements will absolutely insist that a student who wishes to withdraw must keep paying. No reputable teacher wants to force someone to be a member of his school against his will. The function of the agreement is to make the dues payment more formalized so that the student takes his timely payment seriously. But it is usually the case that a student who really wishes to withdraw can do so. It does no good for a school's reputation for them to be perceived as money grubbing etc. It is much better for you to part company amicably. That said I know of schools that are simply traps. Once they get tyou signed, you are in fpr the duration.

As for the students who hang on just to get their Black Belts.. Sounds like they are no more honorable than the people who are running the school. Why would you want some rank from people you didn't like? What meaning would that have? Sounds like both the teachers and students were running the school with the expectation that they were "paying" for the Black Belts. Not the correct attitude on either part.

George Ledyard
9th May 2001, 15:04
Originally posted by Claire Bartlett
. I have no difficulty paying for expertise. That being said, the following complaint is all too common. Suppose you've checked the credentials, format, curriculum and found something that you think is a good fit. You start training only to find out that your classes are not run by the head instructor, who's credentials were satisfactory. Quite often classes are run by a kyu belt. Sure this person may know more than you, but are they worth the money, is that what you paid for? They may know technique, but do they know how to teach? Are they just there because they have to be or do they have an honest desire to help others learn? If you signed a contract, were you made aware at the time that you might be taught by people who have no teaching experience? Often the contracts are so vague that the instructors can pretty much ask you to wash their car and call it "training". The problems don't always surface during the 3 month trial period. By the time they do, students have invested a lot of time, energy and money. You've made friends, commitments and sacrifices. So your choice is to stay and put up or hope things get better or leave and start all over somewhere else. I think instructors know that students are reluctant to leave and will sometimes hang on a year or two just to get the Black Belt.

Just my two cents.
Claire

The issues you describe should not be issues at a well run school. For instance at my own dojo we have a very stable schedule and the students know exactly what nights I teach and what nights my instructors teach. We are a mature school so all of the people teaching adult classes are Yudansha (we occasionally plug in the up and coming Brown belts as subs for their experience). I can't understand how you would after three months of Trial membership at a school you would have any questions about who you would be training with. That's bad structure on the part of the school.

No one that I know who does Tuition Agreements will absolutely insist that a student who wishes to withdraw must keep paying. No reputable teacher wants to force someone to be a member of his school against his will. The function of the agreement is to make the dues payment more formalized so that the student takes his timely payment seriously. But it is usually the case that a student who really wishes to withdraw can do so. It does no good for a school's reputation for them to be perceived as money grubbing etc. It is much better for you to part company amicably. That said I know of schools that are simply traps. Once they get tyou signed, you are in fpr the duration.

As for the students who hang on just to get their Black Belts.. Sounds like they are no more honorable than the people who are running the school. Why would you want some rank from people you didn't like? What meaning would that have? Sounds like both the teachers and students were running the school with the expectation that they were "paying" for the Black Belts. Not the correct attitude on either part.

Claire Bartlett
9th May 2001, 17:55
Hi George,
Thanks for your response. It sounds like you are very up front with your students and they are therefore able to make an informed decision. I guess that is one advantage joining an established dojo, they have worked out many of the bugs. The person I was thinking of had enough previous experience to walk away when he saw blue belts instructing a class at a very well established dojo. I didn't join this dojo either, but I wouldn't have known any better. As a complete novice I would have been satisfied with the background of the Sensei, the stability of the dojo etc. I wouldn't have known to ask who would actually be instructing the classes. As a white belt, receiving instruction from a blue belt might have seemed perfectly reasonable given the gap in knowledge. So it is quite possible for a 3 month trial to pass without realizing that instruction from this level just isn't worth a few hundred dollars a year. The point was that price doesn't always correlate with good instruction. Instruction from a n'th Dan is worth appropriate compensation, but not if he/she sits in an office.
Don't misunderstand me. I think being given the opportunity to run the occasional class, even at a kyu belt level, is part of the whole training experience. There is nothing like teaching to show you what you know and what you don't. But everyone's training suffers if this happens too frequently and the student isn't getting access to the expertise that they are paying for. It would be great if all dojos were as open and honest as yours, but they are not and it is difficult for someone new to martial arts to be aware of all the potential problems.
Your other points were valid too. Even Dojo's with contracts don't want to hang onto disgruntled students. Most people I know simply finish the year if they paid in advance and don't renew. I have never heard of anyone being contacted by a collection agency for not completing the contract. Students should know that it is possible to walk away, not always easy, but possible. As for those who stay just to get a black belt even when the training is not good; there are always people who will pay $20 for something worth $1 ( just look at ebay). Especially those who view black belt as a status symbol. (judging by the numbers of students who stop training after shodan, it is not surprising that some dojos could be viable serving this kind of student)
Claire