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Jody Holeton
18th April 2001, 12:54
Dear all,

I read somewhere (probaly here) that Jigoro Kano wore hakama all the time for Judo.

I have a young lady, due to her religious beliefs, will get into trouble if she's caught wearing pants.

She is a great Judoka and a great fighter and will do great in the sport and the art aspects of Judo once she gets enough mat time and instruction.

Can people wear hakama? It looks like a skirt (I know its pants but hey whatever works) and will probaly be OK'd by her rabbi.

Thanks all,
Jody

efb8th
18th April 2001, 16:02
Hi, Jody.

The hakama adapts very well for randori or kata. Get the shortest you can find, and when the time comes for action, have her reach through the side vents and down the legs and pull the hems back up through the vents. This fighting configuration is very traditional and keeps the feet from tangling in the cloth.

PS: Since she is mudansha, get white if you can. This would also be more within the spirit of judo.

Regards,

Yamantaka
18th April 2001, 17:24
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jody Holeton
[B]Dear all,
I read somewhere (probaly here) that Jigoro Kano wore hakama all the time for Judo.

YAMANTAKA : Neh...There are photos of him doing techniques WITHOUT hakama.

Can people wear hakama? It looks like a skirt (I know its pants but hey whatever works)

YAMANTAKA : You can...but I wouldn't advise it. Judo has closer contact than Aikido and even the sturdy keikogi tears after a few fights. Worse will happen with the hakama and it will be expensive. It's a question of logistics. If you wear a hakama, it will be much expensive than if do not. So...
And by the way, I do not like the idea of the art adapting itself to the student (for religious reasons or others). In my opinion, it's the student who must adapt himself/herself to the art or abandon it.
IMHO

dakotajudo
18th April 2001, 17:27
The original judo gi was essentially underwear, although it's evolved into a more proper uniform. Hakama where just the traditional pants many Japanese wore daily.

You may want to check with a judo referee, but I don't think that hakama is proper for tournaments, so your student may not get an opportunity to partake in the sport of judo if she is forbidden to wear judo pants.

Peter

efb8th
18th April 2001, 17:53
Absolutely right, Peter.

The Hakama would be disallowed for contest by the rules concerning length and would therefore be useless for tournament. I was assuming that the sensei's word is law in his/her own dojo, and a great deal of learning can take place in an informal monthly club shiai. If the student in question is unable to wear pants, she will not be eligible for sanctioned tournament play.

At this point, Jody, you have to assess what you are teaching this student for. She can be a successful martial artist if, and only if, you as her sensei can define her success in a way that she can accept and value. She may never be a "successful" tournament player, but she can achieve mastery if you guide her properly, or refer her to someone who can.

If teaching were simpler, it wouldn't be so much fun.

Good luck!

Jody Holeton
18th April 2001, 18:30
Dear all,

Thank you for your replies. I know there are more sturdy keikogi and hakama available I am just worried about some weird rule in the USJF or USJA that would ban it.

The young lady in mind is into Judo for self-defense reasons and not for tournaments.

She has already been in conflict with grapplers and knife-toting thugs. I am just looking for a way for her to get proper training (I am no teacher) in the shortest time without her getting into trouble.

There are a lot of "Just World" theorists (bad things don't happen to good people) out there and I'm afraid of her not being prepared.

Thanks, I appreciate the input--Jody

Usagi
18th April 2001, 18:36
Originally posted by Jody Holeton

I have a young lady, due to her religious beliefs, will get into trouble if she's caught wearing pants.

She is a great Judoka and a great fighter and will do great in the sport and the art aspects of Judo once she gets enough mat time and instruction.

Can people wear hakama? It looks like a skirt (I know its pants but hey whatever works) and will probaly be OK'd by her rabbi.

Thanks all,
Jody

Here we have a problem...

Her religion states that for her to use pants is a disrespect to her God.

Hakama is a pant, so from the stand point of view of "God" (who knows it all), to wear it would be a silly attempt to mislead Him and would increase the disrespect.

If she is just trying to avoid criticisms from her Rabbi, she's really trying to mislead him by saying that the hakama is a skirt and that is a very dangerous thing.

If her Rabbi ever put his hands on a hakama she will be in a great deal of trouble.

As you say that "She is a great Judoka and a great fighter " i deduce that she is already training.

The question "Can people wear hakama? " makes me deduce that she is already using pants.

If she is REALLY serious about JuDo she will use pants and deal with her Rabbi in a mature way(maybe look for a fresh minded one?).

Train JuDo with hakama is not a good idea.

In the old days training in jujutsu would be done using the wagi and underwear, as hakama would rip during pratice.

Also, beginners will stumble on it.

Unless you want her to stumble, spend two hakama per week, get expelled by her Rabbi and end up quitting JuDo the same way, keep her using pants and let her solve this problem by her own.

My personal point of view...

MarkF
19th April 2001, 11:10
I have seen judoka train in hakama with no ill effect on the garment or the judo, as I have seen yarmulke worn, and other coverings, as well.

As far as I know, God is blind to such things, but the rabbi is not. This too, is a concern.

Does she wear a wig and/or other head coverings? If not, the rabbi is a fake. If so, she has no need for judo when she has God and a rabbi for protection.

Kano did wear hakama for most demonstrations, but donned judogi when necessary to show proper reiko and also posed doing kata in a dogi, with the long pant of the 1920s, black belt, and proper uwagi. I also have seen him coach/teach judoka while wearing a western suit of clothes, tie included (in photos).

My personal opinion is that she needs to find a female rabbi and come down from the Mount. The dogi of today is made for protection more than anything else while hakama doesn't afford this protection.

And I agree, wearing hakama is as much trickery as anything the rabbi would forbid. While I can make allowances for certain sensible religious needs, this is also a Japanese martial art if the intent is not to engage in shiai, so it is up to her to make the choice, NOT the rabbi.

Good and evil come from within and not from shul, head coverings, God, or anywhere else, and it is something in all individuals, and up to them to say what is and what isn't. Remember, a rabbi is not a Jewish Priest (or Cohn), but a minister. The priests are those who are direct decendants of Abraham.

Go play judo and have some fun.

Mark

Jody Holeton
19th April 2001, 16:10
WOW


Thank you all for your replies. Everyone raise serious issues, especially about religious points.


I think that Judo should be mandatory for every woman in college. Judo can be whatever you want it to be (a sport, goshin jutsu, military training, a religion, meditation etc.). Its all a matter of perspective. Being in shape, being able to handle yourself and having decent self-esteem is invaluable to today's woman.
I think most religions can allow judo for women, its just a matter of perspective.

Aozora
19th April 2001, 19:19
Originally posted by Usagi


Here we have a problem...

Her religion states that for her to use pants is a disrespect to her God.

Hakama is a pant, so from the stand point of view of "God" (who knows it all), to wear it would be a silly attempt to mislead Him and would increase the disrespect.

If she is just trying to avoid criticisms from her Rabbi, she's really trying to mislead him by saying that the hakama is a skirt and that is a very dangerous thing.

Coming from a Jewish background, I have some problems with both the student and Usagi's reply.

Jody, ask your student how she feels about playing baseball. If she feels it would be ok, than it should be no different than playing judo. If not, than she needs to adopt to whatever customs are present in the dojo and not even worry about it because she's violating "the rules" just for being there and it's pointless to try to adhere to one stricture than stems from the violation of another.

As far as arguing whether or not it's misleading, the whole idea about the hakama being a pant or a skirt is misleading to begin with. 1) They were originally meant as riding chaps and became fashionable for men later on. 2) If she doesn't wear a hakama, she's a: wearing pants then and b: wearing her underwear, both of which are violations of chasidic laws of decency.

I think a lot of this could be resolved if she brought the rabbi to the dojo and showed him what it was all about. If he's absolutely intolerant about it, she needs to decide which is more important to her: someone else's strictures or the decision to live her own life. I know for a fact the Jewish religion is in general very tolerant of other pracitces and customs and it's practiioners comfortable enought to participate in some of theose other customs because it is secure in it's faith.

Also, technically, wearing pants in judo class is not the same as wearing them socially.

Jody Holeton
20th April 2001, 01:22
Thank you Mr.Melancon,


I agree 100% with you. Although she is not my student BUT she has a tremondous amount of courage and talent. This young lady puts her life on the line for her research (she does Sankrit and Latin translation or some such) and I just want to see her get the proper training.

Call it a sport, call it exercise, call it meditation, hell I call it shugyou, I don't care. Its good that shes training, she beats guys 50 pounds heavier than her on the ground. Thats playin nice because she only weighs a hundred pounds soakin wet.

Its weird, its OK for her to go to a war zone but not for her to be trained to be there. I dont even think her sect allows her to do the military time....but they still want to hold Israel land..... weird.

Walker
20th April 2001, 01:31
Shouldn’t she just ask the rabbi what she should wear then ask her sensei if the rabbi’s solution is acceptable for judo?

FWIW - not jewish - not judoka.

MarkF
20th April 2001, 10:47
Well, I'm a Jew, and can tell you there are, just like anyone else, much intolerance, even within the faith, itself.

One ultra-orthodox, conservative group, located in Canada, is extremely judgmental when it comes to inter-ethnic marriage or sex of any kind, but had this to say: "No Jew should consummate any relationship with gentiles. However, anything which comes out of a Jewish woman's belly is Jewish."

Also, the general idea of Jews refusing military service through Concientious Objection is usually only applied to any army or war on "foreign" soil. Israel is NOT foreign soil for Jews. That is the idea, anyway.

But I agree with Jody, it is senseless and stupid. if the opressed are once freed this in no way gives them the right to act as opressors. Torture is still torture, and killing is still murder in many cases, and sometimes it is mass murder.
*****

As to playing judo, it is up to her, and not the rabbi. Bringing someone to approve of what they do because only they can interpret God's law is pointless, no matter what the response (shugyo is a good description. If the rabbi is against this so as to oppose someone learning self-defense, then what is proper protection, a condom?)

If she has as much going for her as Jody alludes, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a reason to do it within her academic studies.

I also think Jody should receive some credit here for taking on the role in helping this person. It would seem he is the minister here while the rabbi is far out of the circle. I may be wrong, but from what has been said so far, I think the point has been made, so good for you, Jody. Now this is a good student, in any dojo I teach.

Mark

MarkF
20th April 2001, 10:53
Of course, Doug would chime in with the most sensible and easiest solution.:wave:

Mark