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the Khazar Kid
26th June 2000, 19:28
We all know about how Biddle, Fairbairn, Applegate, etc. taught combatives in WWII, but who taught combatives in WWI? Was Biddle already teaching the USMC at that time? Burton was dead by this time, but were Hutton, Vigny, or any of their associates still alive and teaching the British Army? Who were the big names of military fencing and hand2hand in WWI?

Jesse Peters

Jeff Cook
26th June 2000, 23:20
Great question! Not a clue, but I will look into it.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Joseph Svinth
27th June 2000, 08:14
Which country? In Britain, you had Vic McLaglen's brother Leopold, the inventor of the Jiu Jitsu Corset, teaching stuff, along with Bruce Sutherland. The British Army was mostly boxing, and in 1917 Biddle went to England, where he was suitably impressed by the stage shows he saw.

In practice, though, the British received no real training, including training in musketry, and in 1915 whole battalions were sent over the top without ammunition because the soldiers had never fired their rifles in practice. The Germans called this the Kindermord, or Murder of the Children.

In the US, it was mostly boxing, based on the YMCA model. Teachers included Willie Richie (Camp Lewis), Benny Leonard (Camp Upton), etc. There were also judoka, though, such as Captain Allan C. Smith at Fort Myer and Tokugoro Ito in Los Angeles. Biddle was involved here, though in fact he is best considered a legend in his own mind. (His daughter's biography of her father was made into a Walt Disney movie in the 1960s, if that gives you a clue about how much the man understood.) As much attention was given to going to church (the idea was that this would reduce VD rates to below 20%) and singing.

The Germans taught sniping.

The French taught some savate, but artillery did most of the killing at Verdun. Bayonets were subsequently used mostly to chase French and British soldiers into the line, a job for which they worked fairly well. (Alvin York's response to a 5-man bayonet charge, by the way, was 8 rounds from a Government .45.)

The tearing agent CA was first used in action during the Russian campaign of 1915; the Germans later used it for training. The Americans and British on the other hand used chlorine until after the war, when they got the German patents. The first US use of tear gas was thus Doug MacArthur's use on striking veterans in Washington, DC.

There is some discussion of this in "Kronos" and in both current and back issues of "JNon-LethalCbt" at http://ejmas.com Also, a portion of Captain Smith's 1920 text is scheduled for publication in July. As I get more, I'll post more...

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 07-04-2000 at 09:30 PM]

Joseph Svinth
5th July 2000, 05:34
Okay, the first of Captain Smith's judo texts is up at http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm -- it's at the bottom of "Reprinted Articles," just above Burton. More to follow over the next few months, but in the meantime his introduction and explanation of the acronym "Stahara" should interest people who have read FM 21-150, 1942, and wondered just what the Army was talking about. (Think "centering," and you've got the idea exactly. The acronym comes from Smith's pronunciation of "Shita hara.")

maphx
8th July 2000, 20:06
Here's a link to an article on WWI physical fitness which also touches on combatives training, from the U.S. Army Phyical Fitness Training Center's newly revamped website (look around in there - they have some interesting information and training program on new "old" methods the Army is re-adopting - Indian club drills, medicene balls, etc. They're also incorporating Dr. Maung Gyi's knife and stick combatives into the PT program.)

http://www-benning.army.mil/usapfs/pages/history1885-1920.htm

the Khazar Kid
14th September 2000, 00:48
Has anyone heard of the Welsh artillery "Joubert knife" from WW1? Was it anything like Fairbairn's infamous "Smatchet"? I heard that was based on an older Welsh artillery knife/shortsword.

the Khazar Kid
14th September 2000, 00:49
Has anyone heard of the Welsh artillery "Joubert knife" from WW1? Was it anything like Fairbairn's infamous "Smatchet"? I heard that was based on an older Welsh artillery knife/shortsword.

Jesse Peters

Joseph Svinth
14th September 2000, 07:12
I haven't heard of that knife, but have you tried these guys? http://www.vikingsword.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi Their knowledge of cutlery always amazes me.

Another possibility is to locate Welsh military museums. The name "Joubert" suggests a South African origin. Welsh troops were at Isandlwana and took part in the Second South African War, so the Welshmen's appreciation for stabbing weapons was probably higher than normal.

For examples of what I'm thinking, take this virtual tour of Natal battlefields: http://www.icon.co.za/~dup42/toer01.htm

Which thought leads me to the Royal Regiment of Wales Museum at http://www.rrw.org.uk . The info at the site says "The museum has extensive archive material, particularly relating the 1879 Zulu war, much of which has never been published. Access to the archives is available to the serious researcher by appointment. Alternatively, email us and we will try and answer your query so long as it is pertinent to the Regiment."

So the worst that can happen is that they say that they don't know...

jimmy o'curry
2nd February 2001, 03:19
there's more of capt. smith's manual up at the ejmas site these days; those who haven't seen it, give it a read. better stuff than fm21-150.


jeff slade