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Stephenjudoka
20th April 2001, 15:44
Taiho Jutsu is aikido based - mainly from the Tomiki style.
Do readers from this forum include it as Aikido or should it be put into another forum.
If so what forum should it go in.

Stephen Sweetlove

George Ledyard
20th April 2001, 16:03
Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
Taiho Jutsu is aikido based - mainly from the Tomiki style.
Do readers from this forum include it as Aikido or should it be put into another forum.
If so what forum should it go in.

Stephen Sweetlove

Due to the very "applied" nature of the art I think Tai ho Jutsu should be include in the Close Quarters Combat section since it is supposed to deal with law enforcement applications.

Although I am a big proponent of martially effective Aikido, I also believe that Aikido is a spiritual practice as well. there are many aspects of Aikifo training that have to do with that side of the pratice rather than the applied side of the "waza".

So when you take just the applied side and train for practicality only it should be named something else which is of course why we call it Tai Ho Jutsu and not Aikido proper. I say this as one who has developed and teaches his own system of Aikido based Police Defensive Tactics.

That said I think that the people who do have experience in this area should definitely contribute to the discussions of whether Aikido is or is not an effective martial art which seem to always be a part of the aikido forum.

Yamantaka
20th April 2001, 16:43
[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Ledyard
[B]

Due to the very "applied" nature of the art I think Tai ho Jutsu should be include in the Close Quarters Combat section since it is supposed to deal with law enforcement applications.

YAMANTAKA : aptly said, Ledyard Sama! Also we should remember that Taiho Jutsu is not just "based in Aikido" but in other arts, such as Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu.
Best

PRehse
20th April 2001, 21:57
Please remember that Tomiki Aikido (from which, as stated, Tai ho Jutsu is mainly derived) is not concerned with the spiritual side that Aikikai Aikido developed into after WWII. If spirituality is what defines whether something is Aikido or not then consideration should be made to putting Tomiki Aikido elsewhere also.


Originally posted by George Ledyard

Although I am a big proponent of martially effective Aikido, I also believe that Aikido is a spiritual practice as well. there are many aspects of Aikifo training that have to do with that side of the pratice rather than the applied side of the "waza".

Stephenjudoka
21st April 2001, 22:29
My view is that Taiho Jutsu is and should be included as Aikido.

I agree with all that has been said. Taiho Jutsu is Tomiki Aikido based but also includes Judo etc.
However all the Katas are from Aikido. As far as the spiritial side is concerned many Taiho Jutsu practitioners
follow the spiritial side.
Most technques used come from Aikido.

I practice many arts- I am a 5th Dan at Judo, 5th dan at Taiho Jutsu, 5th Degree at Sambo and I have represented Great Britain in International competition at Judo, Sambo and Wrestling.

I have trained all over the world including the former Soviet Union, USA, the Middle East and most of Europe.
Of all the styles I have seen or practiced Taiho Jutsu is the closest to Aikido.
I have always considered my Taiho Jutsu grade as an Aikido grade. Am I wrong?.

Stephen Sweetlove

TIM BURTON
22nd April 2001, 10:02
The system of Taiho Jutsu established in 1947 by the Tokyo Police review committee, was a synthesis of classical and modern martial arts. It comprised of Kenjutsu/Kendo, Jujutsu/Judo, Wado/Karatejutsu and some elements of Boxing. This empty hand system called Taiho Jutsu was supplemented by weapon arts such as Keijojutsu taken from the Muso Shindo Ryu, Keibo Soho and Tokushu Keibo Soho taken from the Ikaku Ryu. It also included a system of Hojo Jutsu.
Initially the Taiho Jutsu devised by the committee comprised of 10 Nage waza or throwing techniques, 8 Idori waza or techniques applied whilst seated and 6 Hiki tate or techniques that stood and controlled a subject. Later these were replaced by 14 Kihon waza or basics and 16 Oya waza or advanced techniques. The officers also studied Seijo or handcufing, Soken or searching and Hiki tate oyobi or restraints.
I am still researching these early systems of Taiho Jutsu and as yet have not been able to acquire a copy of the Taiho Jutsu Kihon Kozo in which they are set out.
It would be fairer to state that in UK Taiho Jutsu the Aikido is mainly the Shodokan interpretation of technique application as this was the style of Aikido taught to its UK founder Brian Eustace. Also in UK Taiho Jutsu we have adopted a version of randori based along the lines of Sport Aikido.
The use of Aiki type techniques obviously have their place in Taiho Jutsu but just as importantly so do techniques applied from a number of different Mai-ai. When a Kote Gaeshi fails it elicits a Mae Geri kick or an O Soto Gari from the officer trying to gain control of the subject. The ability to let the circumstances dictate the technique I think places Taiho Jutsu in the same martial camp as Jujutsu.
As to where it should sit in a forum is open to debate as the system can empathise with most arts on the forum and add its own unique perspective to a discussion. However the newer Defensive tactics system now taught in the UK that replaces Taiho Jutsu, is better suited to sit in the Close Quarters Combat section.

MarkF
22nd April 2001, 11:31
Originally posted by PRehse
Please remember that Tomiki Aikido (from which, as stated, Tai ho Jutsu is mainly derived) is not concerned with the spiritual side that Aikikai Aikido developed into after WWII. If spirituality is what defines whether something is Aikido or not then consideration should be made to putting Tomiki Aikido elsewhere also.




Please excuse my perceived tone, but what does this mean??

There is a spiritual side to all budo, some simply apply differing amounts of each. Aikikai is apart from this because of its spiritual side?

Koichi Tohei is as "spiritual" an aikido practitioner as anyone, but since he is no longer a member of the aikikai he no longer brings spirit to aikido? This man has a center which can leap out and grab you from his wheelchair, or so I believe, anyway.

Remember that the founders of judo also placed a heavy emphasis on the *spirit of judo,* and was a major reason for Kenji Tomiki studying aikibudo, or whichever you wish to call it, in the first place. He brought that back to the Kodokan and a major system of the spirit of judo lays in the thoughts of Tomiki.

Shodokan style aikido carries the same mix, it is up to the student to apply what s/he believes works for the student. Teachers can only go so far and is why much of Ueshiba's thoughts and designs for aikido are in so many different spheres. No one has yet been able to effectively transliterate what Ueshiba Morihei has said, much less understood even in his own language.

"The spiritual side" is what the individual *believes* it is, it is not some law or description which makes any form of aikido different from the other. It is completely up to the individual.
*****

As to Stephen's suggestion of a separate forum for tai ho jutsu, I could bring it up with the other moderators/administrator, but I'm not sure there is enough "separation" from judo or aikido, nor the interest, but I can pose it.

There have been many threads on taiho jutsu in many different forums, so which is a good question, but to make it a subset of CQC probably wouldn't draw much attention, particularly to the contest side of it. The CQC forum has mainly been a disscussion of modern weapons, LE situational discussions, and the military. While in theory THJ probably belongs there, I just don't think there is enough to bring in a subforum to it. I've enjoyed the posts by Stephen and Tim, but I think, for now, that should be separate threads under any forum in which it fits. The judo forum is as good as Aikido for the discussion of the tournament side, or even the waza side of it. Tim's ascertation that it is more closely aligned to jujutsu makes that forum one to consider, as all are basically the same, and I mean, simply, as taijutsu. Taihojutsu is an old term, and even the koryu general has had discussions of it. Move it around, and lets see which draws the most interest. So far, the aikido forum seems to have the upper hand.
******

That said, I think the discussion of all aspects of the more modern taihojutsu applications are worthy of a forum, I'm just not really sure a separate forum is warranted. The descriptions of taihojutsu contests have me interested, that's for sure.

Keep it coming, guys. There are worse things and a forum for them (Bad Budo).

Mark

Stephenjudoka
22nd April 2001, 12:47
Mark,

I do not think Taiho Jutsu needs its own Forum. In my opinion it should be in the Aikido forum.
My certificates upto and including 5th Dan were issued by the British Aikido Association.
Taiho Jutsu was part of the BAA for many years and thats why I consider it more closely related to Aikido more than other arts.

CQC is not the place for Taiho Jutsu - although a very good self defence - Taiho Jutsu is also an art.
CQC is definately not an art.

I ask the question of what forum Taiho Jutsu should be in because elsewhere in this forum I noted that Brian Eustace's Tomiki grade was accepted and recorded but his Taiho Jutsu grade was not recorded.

I have always thought Taiho Jutsu was closer to Aikido than any other art but it seems Aikido practitioners and some Taiho Jutsu practitioners do not think so. I was interested in where it should sit.

Stephen Sweetlove

PRehse
22nd April 2001, 20:16
Hi Mark;

It means that a lot of the spiritual baggage (there has got to be a better word) associated with Aikido has no place in the Shodokan system. The Aikido of Kenji Tomiki is firmly placed in the context of traditional Japanese budo with the influence of Omotokyo approaching zero. Ueshiba did not require conversion to Omotokyo to study Aikido although apparently Kenji Tomiki read the religious tracts to better understand his teacher's Aikido.

That does not mean to say that there is no spiritual side - Aikido as a Do is a path to self perfection and I am well aware that most Koryu are as concerned with developing the human being as well as preparing for combat. The University of Montana site which you suggested to me rings very familiar in Parts 4 and 5 of the History of the Kodokan. As a little factoid the Shodokan emblem designed by Kenji Tomiki was inspired by the Ten no Maki (scroll of Heaven) from Kito-ryu. I can guarantee you it was not chosen just because it was pretty.


I said

is not concerned with the spiritual side that Aikikai Aikido developed into after WWII


which does not mean no spirituality.


I said

If spirituality is what defines whether something is Aikido or not then consideration should be made to putting Tomiki Aikido elsewhere also.


Which might have caused some confusion (sorry) but to clarify. If you say Aikido is Aikido because of the philosophy espoused by post WWII manifestations - then Tomiki Aikido may also not be called Aikido since there are some strong and clear differences.

A junior Shodokan yudansha wrote a simple book explaining some basic principles and how they apply to the first two kyu grades. I thought he did a credible job so I passed it on to my students. I knew his introduction suffered from a bit of what you could call Aikikai bleed over for example the loving protection of your adversary but hey he wasn't the first, it wasn't that bad, and it gave me something to talk about over beer after training. Unfortunately for me a senior instructor from Honbu freaked assuming that this is what I was teaching. I am also a junior yudansha and asked him to join my club mailing list as a senior advisor. I guess after that I've taken it upon myself to clarify on occasion since Aikido has developed for me at least beyond a collection of techniques.


Peter Rehse - dogma cop (insert suitable menacing music).


The path to self protection is revealed through training hard. I believe that too many people read too much too soon and worse yet, especially in the context of Shodokan, assume that Aikido philosophy is monolithic.



Originally posted by MarkF


Please excuse my perceived tone, but what does this mean??

There is a spiritual side to all budo, some simply apply differing amounts of each. Aikikai is apart from this because of its spiritual side?
Mark

dainippon99
22nd April 2001, 20:47
as far as spirituality in shodokan/budo, i would say that shodokan is very scientific in its view of the spirit. Aikikai/shin shin toitsu aikido have ki excersises and the like, and shodokan does have breathing techniques, but unlike most other styles, shodokan views that the spirit is only strengthened and improved through training in the physical techniques. shodokan is pretty bereft of esoteric terminology as well. All in all, its very scientific, making it ideal for combat situations such as the police would find in their daily lives.

Yamantaka
23rd April 2001, 01:21
Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
Mark,
I do not think Taiho Jutsu needs its own Forum. In my opinion it should be in the Aikido forum.
My certificates upto and including 5th Dan were issued by the British Aikido Association.
Taiho Jutsu was part of the BAA for many years and thats why I consider it more closely related to Aikido more than other arts.
I ask the question of what forum Taiho Jutsu should be in because elsewhere in this forum I noted that Brian Eustace's Tomiki grade was accepted and recorded but his Taiho Jutsu grade was not recorded.
Stephen Sweetlove

YAMANTAKA : The problem is that the BAA has stressed to me the fact that, even if Brian Eustace, was a part and ranked in Tomiki Aikido, "HE NO LONGER WAS A PART OF THAT ORGANIZATION", clearly separing Taiho Jutsu from Aikido.
Perhaps Mark F. is right. Up to now, it does not seem that Taiho Jutsu people are sufficient to grant it a private site or even permanent participation in another site, Aikido or other.
Who knows later?
Best

Greg Jennings
23rd April 2001, 02:43
With Respect to Taiho Jutsu:

Leave it here in the Aikido section. It'll add to the mix.

---

With Respect to spirituality in Aikikai based Aikido:

Aikido is an umbrella art. Generalities are hard to find. E.g., we're Aikikai affiliated (through AANC Division 1), but we practice self improvement only through hard training. Our unofficial motto is "Don't talk, do".

In fact almost all (not that the 10 or so I've trained in is a representative sample) of the Aikikai dojo that I've trained in don't philosophize, they just train. If someone wants to talk or read outside class, they're welcome to, but in class they train.

I've been told by people that have experienced it first hand that some of the most harsh, no-nonsense training that they've ever experienced was at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo.

---

Sometimes I wonder if part of some people's misunderstanding isn't due to the shibboleths of some branches of Aikido.

Recently someone asked about doing kotegaeshi on a closed fist in a post to Aikido-L.

I replied that in my experience if one was careful to take uke's balance and take the slack out of uke's "structure" (yes, I know that they are closely related) that the technique would work no matter what and conversely that if uke's balance wasn't taken and/or if there was slack, kotegaeshi would never reliably work.

But I used words like "connection" to mean "take out all the slack out of uke's structure and "center" to mean "center of mass" or "structure".

To me, "connection" and "center" are useful terms that convey a lot meaning in a compact way.

Someone who wasn't used to those terms derided my post as "spiritual crap" (I'm paraphrasing).

As always, YMMV and I'd be OK with that.

Regards

Chad Bruttomesso
23rd April 2001, 04:25
Over the last few days I have been following this thread quite closely. Due to the fact that I know little about Taiho Jutsu it has been quite informative. I agree that for now we should leave this thread here becuase it does "add nicely to the mix". Thank you everyone for the great thread and keep them coming.

Thank you,

Karl Kuhn
23rd April 2001, 06:49
Hi,

"I knew his introduction suffered from a bit of what you could call Aikikai bleed over for example the loving protection of your adversary but hey he wasn't the first"

While I appreciate the rhetorical lean of the above, it is important to remember that the kihon waza is designed as such, to protect the attacker. Shodokan may not spend the time patting themselves on the back for being benevolant, but the entire syllabus is designed to ensure that the attacker has the opportunity to re-evaluate their actions.

Now, the idea that Aikido is a manifestation of universal love etc, is not a common theme in the practice at my dojo. This does not mean that the art can not aim to present itself as an alternative to violence. And that would be my 2 cents.......................

Karl

P Goldsbury
23rd April 2001, 13:18
I am following this thread with great interest and offer a few thoughts and questions.

1. There are arbitrary aspects in any system of classification and these aspects seem especially prominent in classifying martial arts. For example, one might argue that Tomiki Aikido is a development/an offshoot of something regarded as more 'traditional'. Taiho jutsu (literally, "arresting skills") seems to be a more specialised offshoot of Tomiki Aikido with added ingredients, quite a good mix already.

2. I am new to this forum, but I notice that Daito Ryu is included in the Koryu section and not in Modern Budo. (I do not fully understand the phrasing: Budo has become anglicised: 'gendai' has not.) I know that Daito-ryu was the parent of aikido, but it is also alive and well and flourishing a a 'modern' martial art. It is not taught as a traditional 'koryu' as far as I am aware.

3. I tend to agree with those like George Ledyard, who think that Taiho Jutsu is a little too far removed from aikido to be considered together. The mix beomes very rich indeed, a bit like the sumo wrestler's chanko nabe, very fattening but hard to stomach.

4. If someone came to me with a grade in Taiho-jutsu and requested that it be accepted as, or count towards, an aikido grade, I would refuse and the grounds for refusal would not be 'political' (i.e., different organisations).

Best wishes to all,

Peter A. Goldsbury

PRehse
23rd April 2001, 14:16
I agree Karl - the philosophy of Shodokan is definately not smash em bash em.

There are elements of the syllabus though that really don't give the attacker much of a chance to re-evaluate - just examine some of the techniques in the Koryu Goshin no Kata.

Shodokan Aikido does provide one with alternatives in dealing with violence and I agree that one of the goals is a response appropriate to the situation.


Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
Hi,

"I knew his introduction suffered from a bit of what you could call Aikikai bleed over for example the loving protection of your adversary but hey he wasn't the first"

While I appreciate the rhetorical lean of the above, it is important to remember that the kihon waza is designed as such, to protect the attacker. Shodokan may not spend the time patting themselves on the back for being benevolant, but the entire syllabus is designed to ensure that the attacker has the opportunity to re-evaluate their actions.

Now, the idea that Aikido is a manifestation of universal love etc, is not a common theme in the practice at my dojo. This does not mean that the art can not aim to present itself as an alternative to violence. And that would be my 2 cents.......................

Karl

PRehse
23rd April 2001, 15:47
Hi Greg;


Originally posted by Greg Jennings
With Respect to Taiho Jutsu:

Leave it here in the Aikido section. It'll add to the mix.

---

With Respect to spirituality in Aikikai based Aikido:

Aikido is an umbrella art. Generalities are hard to find. E.g., we're Aikikai affiliated (through AANC Division 1), but we practice self improvement only through hard training. Our unofficial motto is "Don't talk, do".

In fact almost all (not that the 10 or so I've trained in is a representative sample) of the Aikikai dojo that I've trained in don't philosophize, they just train. If someone wants to talk or read outside class, they're welcome to, but in class they train.

I've been told by people that have experienced it first hand that some of the most harsh, no-nonsense training that they've ever experienced was at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo.



Actually the situation you describe below is also my experience of the vast majority of Aikikai dojos that I've visited. My original response was in regard to the idea that a certain spiritual outlook defines Aikido whereas in my view this is not the case. Now how far technically Taiho Jutsu is from Aikido I will leave to Stephan and Peter G. (welcome to the thread) to hash out although from what Stephan has said I would tend to agree that it should be kept here. As per Peter G.'s point about grade counting - I don't expect my Shodokan grades to count toward Aikikai nor do I give points from Aikikai grades mainly because the syllabus is so different. Still every Aikikai dojo I've been in has asked me to wear the BB and hakama and I've extended the courtesy to all my visitors.




Sometimes I wonder if part of some people's misunderstanding isn't due to the shibboleths of some branches of Aikido.

<snip>

But I used words like "connection" to mean "take out all the slack out of uke's structure and "center" to mean "center of mass" or "structure".

To me, "connection" and "center" are useful terms that convey a lot meaning in a compact way.

Someone who wasn't used to those terms derided my post as "spiritual crap" (I'm paraphrasing).
Regards

A question of terminology and how others use the same word in different ways. Some use connection with a physical sense others with a more spiritual and unfortunately people tend to make assumptions when key words pop up without paying attention to context.

Stephenjudoka
23rd April 2001, 17:21
Thanks for the great response to my question.
I am happy to keep writing to this forum.
I am not really worried about grades I just wondered where Taiho Jutsu sits in the world of MA.
I am still not sure where it should be, but I love this forum, so for now I hope will be accepted by you all.

Stephen Sweetlove

shinja
30th April 2001, 21:27
Is there a website for TaihoJutsu?

Stephenjudoka
1st May 2001, 17:47
Yes. The web site for the British Taiho Jutsu Association can be found under member Tim Burtons details.

Stephen Sweetlove

TIM BURTON
2nd May 2001, 12:43
http://www.taiho-jutsu.co.uk/

http://www.geocities.com/keijutsukan/