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the Khazar Kid
26th June 2000, 19:58
Does Yawara refer to a style of fighting vaguely related to Sumo, Kempo, and Jujutsu, and Yawari refer to the palm-sticks used as weapons in said style?

Jesse Peters

Jeff Cook
26th June 2000, 23:23
Yawara was a word used to refer to jujitsu - one and the same, just a more ancient word.

Yawari are the weapons as you have described them.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Joseph Svinth
27th June 2000, 08:27
Yawara was what some Japanese American judo teachers called the methods that they taught to Northern California police during the 1920s and 1930s. Thus the term entered the American MA lexicon quite early.

Earl Hartman
27th June 2000, 18:14
Khazar Kid:

The word "yawara" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese character "ju" (as in "judo") which is usually translated as "softness", "flexibility", or "pliability". Many of the older Japanese comprehensive systems had yawara as part of their curriculum.

Jeff, is the word "yawari" a Japanese word? I have never heard it before, and somehow it doesn't sound like a Japanese word to me.

Earl

27th June 2000, 20:19
I think the kanji is the same for yawara, whether it refers to jujutsu or the palm-sized weapon. Yawara, the same character as "ju" in judo or jujutsu, was often used to refer to unarmed fighting skills in classical Japanese jujutsu ryuha. I don't know where the term came to also mean the short wooden rod-like weapon, but it apparently did. Another term I've found for this style of weapon is tenouchi, which means "inside the hand." I can't find any kanji for "yawari" in any of my Japanese dictionaries.

[Edited by budokai on 06-27-2000 at 02:21 PM]

the Khazar Kid
29th June 2000, 23:45
I have heard a plain palm stick called "yawari" or "yawara", a palm stick with a ring for the middle finger called "shobo", and a palm stick tied to a cord called "te-no-uchi". Is this the terminology in Japan?

Jesse Peters

30th June 2000, 00:49
The palm stick is called a "yawara." The short rod with a ring or cord loop is usually referred to as a "suntetsu," especially if it is made of metal. Sun is a specific measurement and tetsu means "iron." Suntetsu don't need to have a ring or loop. Sometimes they were thrown as sort of a blunt, heavy object to stun and/or distract an opponent. I've also seen the yawara with the cord called a "tenouchi." Te means "hand," uchi means "inside," and no is the possessive case, thus the translation is "inside the hand." There is some advance notice about my upcoming book on the subject, "Secret Weapons of Jujutsu" at:

http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/miscellany/new-book.htm

Please excuse the shameless plug.

[Edited by budokai on 06-29-2000 at 06:52 PM]

AST
30th June 2000, 09:21
I'm going to post this here because frankly I'm unsure of where the hell to put it.

Mr Cunningham, perhaps I could have your viewpoint since this seems to be an area of expertise for you. Anybody else with an opinion don't hesitate now.

The Japanese Jitte vs the Okinawan Sai. What are your thoughts on the origin of the weapon, and how does the Phillipine version fit into it.

Theory 1. Invented in Japan, imported into Okinawa / Phillipines. Then why the two prongs on the Sai?

Theory 2. Both countries inspired simultaneously by China / India?

Theory 3. Invented in Okinawa, imported and modified in Japan/ Phillipines.

Theory 4. It was those damn Aliens again.

Seriously though anyone with any input feel free to comment.

Thanks
Adrian Teixeira

30th June 2000, 13:36
I don't want to give out too much information from my new book, "Secret Weapons of Jujutsu," which can be previewed at:
http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/miscellany/new-book.htm

:)

Now that the shameless plug is out of the way, the following is my opinion, based on some research, regarding the jutte.

The most popular theory is that the jutte evolved in Japan from the hachiwara, a sort of parrying/stabbing weapon developed for close-in combat in armor. There is another less clear theory that it may have evolved from the hani-neiji, or "nose screw," an implement that was used to train horses. This may have been considered a badge of office for the retainer responsible for the horses' care, a very important position. Personally, I think it was a little of both.

As for Okinawa and the development of the sai, I am out of my personal area of interest, so I am probably threading on thin ice here. It is my opinion that the Satsuma samurai brought their jutte to Okinawa. I doubt the Okinawan farmers would have imitated it, though. For example, how would they have justified carrying them if they were imitation weapons? I think the sai was originally some farming implement which was adopted as a weapon, much like the nunchaku. Thus, a farmer could justify having the sai on their person if stopped and questioned.

I'm sure there are others with more information on Okinawan developed weapons. I hope my opinion has been of some help. I think this is why history is so much fun. We can have all kinds of theories, but unless there is some very clear evidence, such as documentation, all we can do is consider the various options. Anyone who claims to have the ultimate answer is probably just exposing their strong opinion.

Sincerely,

Don


[Edited by budokai on 06-30-2000 at 07:39 AM]

Ellis Amdur
30th June 2000, 15:39
Also way out of my area of expertise, but I don't believe that the jutte and sai are related. The same weapon is found in Fukien province in China and also in Indonesia. Note that it has a striking resemblance to Indian religous "weapons" - tridents. My guess is that it was developed in the Malaysian archipelago by Hindu practitioners (which probably dates it pretty old, before the conversion of most of the islands to Islam), and then thru trade, was taken to China and then Okinawa.

One might also speculate that Chinese brought it to Indonesia (as so many live in this area) but the practitioners in Indonesia are, to my knowledge of Malay stock rather than Chinese.

Bes

Ellis Amdur

Richard A Tolson
1st July 2000, 07:35
AST,
As an instructor in both Japanese and Chinese arts, I would second Ellis' statement that the Sai is very similar to a Southern Chinese weapon. The major difference between the two weapons is that the Chinese version consists of three blades and is used primarily as a stabbing weapon, rather than, a striking weapon.

AST
1st July 2000, 10:07
Don, Ellis and Richard

Thank you all for the swift replies. I practice Okinawan Kobujutsu so the sai and it's history is of interest to me.
However I will be the first to admit that it's origin is clouded in speculation.

First point of interest. Ellis points out that the Sai is to be found in the Fukien province of China. If I am not mistaken this is the same province that the majority of Okinawan masters that visted China,went to, to learn To-de (Tang hand), as the art was known back then.

So it would not be unreasonable to assumme that the weapon had Chinese, possibly Indian origins and then migrated south to Indonesia, Okinawa and the Phillipines. Possibly following Chinese trade routes.

However Don points this out,and this is something that has always bothered me. The sai does not have any farming application that I am aware of. It is quite obviously a weapon. Even the greenest white belt in Kobujutsu quickly sees it's usefullness in this regard. I read a theory that the sai was a weapon carried by the Okinawan bushi, as they performed a police function on the island.

So could we theorise that the bushi as a warrior class, (although not equal to their Japanese conquerers),were permitted to carry the sai to perform their police related functions. Perhaps even going so far as to learn jitte techniques from the Satsuma clan. I have heard that Bushi Matsumura, (the founder of Shuri-te), studied Jigen Ryu. Also that certain elementary bo techiques were taught to the farmers in order to form a civil defence force.

An intresting point is that there is a kata named Jitte, but I am unaware of any relation to the weapon.

Also is anyone aware of any Chinese styles that today use the sai. The weapon seems to have vanished from the Chinese arsenal. Which would lead one to conclude that most of the current sai techniques are possibly derived from the jitte.



Adrian Teixeira

Ellis Amdur
1st July 2000, 17:07
Adrian -

A few problems with your thesis. First of all, it is far more likely that the sai travelled from Indonesia to China as it is a Malay weapon, not a Chinese weapon in Indonesia and the relation to Hindu religious iconography makes this a far more likely track of transmission.

Second, the sai is used in a manner very different from the jutte. The sai technique looks like karate with the weapon in hand. The jutte, in fact, was not a police weapon, except against unarmed civilians. Against armed miscreants, particularly those with swords, the police used bo, and even more so, the "mitsu-dogu," long weapons with a variety of spikes and hooks to entangle the clothes (and snag the flesh) to pin the armed person against a wall or the ground. In fact, the jutte was more a police badge than a weapon, held out as a symbol of authority. Just because the two weapons look somewhat alike does not mean that they came from the same root. They really are used, technically speaking, quite differently.

Finally, the Satsuma han Jigen Ryu did not include jutte as part of it's curriculum.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Richard A Tolson
1st July 2000, 17:07
AST,
The kata, Jitte, is of Okinawan origin (Shuri-te).
Could "yawari" be an Okinawan term, or perhaps Tak Kabuta (sp) just made up the word?
The Chinese version of the Sai is called the Gen. Master Wing Lam of Hung Gar and Bei Shaolin fame has a videotape available for this weapon.

1st July 2000, 22:09
Unlike some others who've answered your questions, I am a bit hesitant to discuss something in which I have so little knowledge. I agree with Ellis that the jutte was mostly a symbol of office, although the Okkapiki did use a more functional and less decorative version like a truncheon. If I understand correctly, the sai was primarily a throwing weapon. I read or heard somewhere that the Okinawans would carry three, one to throw and the other two to block, parry, and stab.

I would look close at those who theorize about the Japanese arts when their own background and training is very questionable. Yawari is not a Japanese term that I can find, although I guess it could possibly be Ryukan in origin, but I seriously doubt that.

By the way, the Satsuma clan was centered in Kyushu, an area well known for their jutte techniques. Musashi's father, for instance, was a master of jutte-jutsu.

Sincerely,

Don Cunningham

AST
2nd July 2000, 07:45
Thank you for all the prompt responses.

Although my theory now has more holes in it than swiss cheese I labour on.

If we accept that the sai derived from Hindu iconography, would it not be logical that it would emigrate out of India rather than Indonesia. Is there a reason that I'm not aware of, for Indonesia being it's source of origin.

Could we theorise that although the Jitte/Jutte and the sai had differing origins it quickly became apparent that they could serve the same function.

Don from my experience I can tell you that although there are throwing techniques for the sai, it is not it's primary use. They're heavy and don't throw that well. Kata's like Chatanyara no Sai do include throwing moves, however they are usually done from close in, after contact, when you can barely miss.

This brings me back to the earlier dillema. How did the okinawan's under Satsuma subjugation carry their sai. I like Don have heard the theory of carrying 3 so that one could be thrown. However it then becomes apparent that you are carrying weapons, even to the dumbest samurai.

The same applies for surujin (9 & 15 foot chain weapons.)
There is no way that yuo could mistake those for agricultural tools. Especially since the Japanese themselves had a fondness for chain weapons.

Also if anybody has done some cross training in the Filipino arts (Kali, Escrima) and has used a sai (tabak toyok?) How about providing some feedback on which techniques are used.

Adrian Teixeira

Joseph Svinth
2nd July 2000, 09:54
Adrian --

In my opinion, the Satsuma subjugation has been somewhat overrated, probably due to the writings of the nationalist historian Fuyu Iha.

Be that as it may, the Ryukyu Kingdom was a place where a LOT of smuggling happened, and during the early nineteenth century some Japanese scholars complained that the Satsuma made more money through smuggling than they paid in taxes to the Shogunate. While that might be exaggeration, too, there *WERE* smugglers in the Ryukyus, and smugglers usually don't worry too much about legalities. Thus to this day many illegal handguns enter Japan from the Phillippines and Thailand via Naha.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the legalities of weapons so much. But to answer your question for certain, archaeological work is going to be required, and the most likely place for that to occur is Ryukyu University in Naha.

AST
2nd July 2000, 10:23
Joe

What you have said makes a lot of sense to me.Everbody knew that the sai and surujin were weapons, but you carried them anyway since chances were, that you were not on the right side of the law.

It is a better explanation then the peasant farmer in disguise theory, that so often gets promulgated. While some weapons like the kama were probably used by the farmers. I feel that weapons like the sai, jitte and surujin were more likely used by people that thought they were going to need them.i.e the authorities and the criminals.

Thanks everybody, you've given me a lot of food for thought.
Adrian Teixeira

Kolschey
2nd July 2000, 14:31
One of the theories that I have heard about the sai is that they were a sort of badge of office of the Okinawan constabulary. This makes sense for several reasons. Firstly, as someone else pointed out, they are not a weapon that can be easily concealed or carried discretely. In the Matayoshi system, three sai are carried, but only one of them is tucked in the back of the obi. Secondly, no one has been able to suggest a realistic agricultural application that would not be better served by different tools or tool forms. Another important consideration is that metal was extremely expensive in Okinawa, so only the Bushi class would have access to the neccesary material for weapons. The agricultural tools of Okinawa that have metal components which were also employed as weapons and have a clear origin and function are the kama and kuwa (sickles and heavy bladed hoe. There may be others, but those are the only ones that come to mind immediately. According to Mr. Nishiuchi, Okinawan constables would be recognised by the weapon, which would also be a valuable tool in dealing with the majority of weapons used by bandits, farmers and fishermen. This is suggested by the name of a sai throwing technique, which roughly translates as " to pin a thief's foot ". Myself, I have thrown sai, and found that they actually work with a predictable rotation and good distance due to their weight and balance. If they are solid ( many commercial sai from companies like AWMA are hollow cast) they will hit like the proverbial ton of bricks. I certainly imagine that I would not like to face a person with one aimed at my foot, and two more ready at hand..

2nd July 2000, 15:20
If the sai were carried as an symbol of authority or police weapon that would seem to support the relationship to the Japanese jutte.

AST
3rd July 2000, 09:28
Which brings us back to the original question.

We have a weapon of Hindu origin, travelling to China via Indonesia or India, then to Okinawa. While having a different origin to the jitte, it's function is the practically the same. Therefore it is adopted as a badge of the Okinawan constabulary, much the same as the jitte is the badge of the Japanese constabulary. Thereby negating the need to conceal the weapon.

One now wonders whether sai techniques were in fact influenced by jitte techniques. At the following page
http://www.kenkyujo.com/kobudo/syllabus.htm
there is a sai kata named jigen no sai. One wonders if there is any relation. I also read a claim that Bushi Matsumura (the founder of Shorin Ryu) studied Jigen Ryu under Yashuhiro Ijuin.

The post about the metal is valid. I read an e-mail from Kisho Inoue the current head of the Yuishinkai Ryu Kyu Kobujutsu awhile back. He felt that the lack of metal on the islands was possibly the main reason that the tinbe (shield) was made out of either wicker or turtle shells.

Adrian Teixeira

efb8th
12th July 2000, 06:46
Hi, All.

This is a hard thread to keep up with but I'd like to add two points.
1) Concerning the kanji for JU and YAWARA. According to the Hepburn Dictionary, the words are synonyms, but the kanji are very different. The Kanji for JU-JUTSZ is clearly the windblown tree, but the Kanji for YAWARA is clearly not. Nor are its derivatives, which have to do with softening, mellowing, or tenderness.

2) Another tenouchi-like name I have seen used for old grappling systems is Kumi-uchi (getting the inside grip).

3) I am sure when Don publishes "SECRET WEAPONS OF JUJUTSU," this will all be clarified. (just mail in the five bucks, Don.)

George Kohler
12th July 2000, 07:00
Originally posted by efb8th
Hi, All.
1) Concerning the kanji for JU and YAWARA. According to the Hepburn Dictionary, the words are synonyms, but the kanji are very different. The Kanji for JU-JUTSZ is clearly the windblown tree, but the Kanji for YAWARA is clearly not. Nor are its derivatives, which have to do with softening, mellowing, or tenderness.


Hi Ed,

Here is what I have on the Kanji for both Ju and Yawara (From the Mark Spahn and Wolfgang Hadamitzky Japanese Character Dictionary)

JU, NYU, yawa(rakai/raka/i) - soft
yawa(ra) - jujutsu

It clearly shows that the Kanji for both Ju and Yawara are the same.

Hope this helps.

efb8th
12th July 2000, 07:55
Hi George.

The Nelson also agrees with you. I wonder what got into the usually reliable Hepburn? Perhaps in 1867, the use of the tree kanji was not as popular (15 yrs. pre-Judo).

TheGrappler
14th July 2000, 21:20
I have to say that this site has some of the most sophisticated discussion on martial arts on the entire Internet. You all put the wankers on rec.martial-arts to shame.

Anyways, just my two cents:

1. the Ju / Yawara issue: Correct that the characters are the same, though the readings are often mis-pronounced. Words that require the addition of hiragana are often disturbed when brought into English (see Jujutsu vs. jujitsu, for instance) and I'm guessing that yawari is just such a case. Because the actual adjective of 'soft/yealding' is "yawarakai," I don't think yawari is intentional.

2. the sai issue: Regardless of where they came from, they were most likely used a farming instrument (rather than a weapon) most of the time. The most common uses include picking up large bales of hay (a sai in each hand) or for picking up fish (using the point to stab through the fish and either prong to hook a gill to lift it out of the water).

Latter,

Grappler

Kolschey
14th July 2000, 22:05
Dear Mr. Grappler,

Welcome to e-budo! For future reference, We like to have members sign their full names on all posts. I am curious about your theories on the sai, particularly the idea of them being used as a fishing implement. For fishing, many Okinawans used a form of fish spear. Indeed, there is one eku (oar) kata which has a movement designed to avoid this weapon. Given the scarcity of metal on Okinawa, a pair of sai seem prohibitively expensive for a fisherman. Perhaps you could share more information on the subject.

Greg Palmer
16th July 2000, 11:39
My instructor, Shihan Jan de Jong, did his training in Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Ju Jitsu in the 1930's and what we call the Yawara stick was part of his training. Interestingly his instructors always refered to it as a "Ju Jitsu stick" probably because Yawara is an old name for Ju Jitsu.