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David T Anderson
20th April 2001, 23:16
I am looking to put together a relatively formal kimono outfit for myself, and although I have a fair idea of what I need, I am hoping someone can give me a few tips on the subject.

I know I need:

Juban [underkimono] -- sort of like a long kimono tshirt, that will contrast with outer kimono.

Kimono - the main outerwear robe, generally dark-coloured or in sober prints for men...

Haori [or keikogi] - outdoor overjacket with or without crests. Or possibly a jinbaori [is this at all modern, or strictly a pre-modern garment]

Obi - men's style is narrower and plainer than women's obis

Tabi socks and/or shoes, possibly worn with geta clog sandals...

This is about as far as I've gotten...are there any other items that are normally worn? Some kind of pants or leggings perhaps? Anything I should avoid in terms of style or colour?

I'm going shopping in Japantown in Vancouver in a couple of weeks...if anybody knows of shops where I can look for traditional Japanese garments or advice on same, I'd really appreciate hearing about it...

23rd April 2001, 23:44
David,

"Haori [or keikogi] - outdoor overjacket with or without crests. Or possibly a jinbaori [is this at all modern, or strictly a pre-modern garment] "

This is sort of mixed up.

A keikogi is a training jacket. It would not be worn formally outside the dojo. It is like a Japanese sweat shirt

A jinbaori was a vest like overcoat usually worn over armor. It is as you allude to, a pre-modern garmet.

It is a haori that you are looking for. It is a formal over jacket. If you wear a haori you would also need to find a himo. It is a cord, usually with two fluffy ends or balls on it. The himo has loops that connect to other loops on the front of the haori. (Himo are rather difficult to find in the states. I got mine in Japan.)

You also need a hakama to wear over the kimono. They are essentially pleated coulottes. These range from sublte earth shades and greys to elaborate patterns, mostly stripes. They aredifficult to tie on properly if you have never done so. The same goes with an obi.

If you would like to see me in just such an outfit, go to the address below.

the only japanese clothing more formal than this would be a kamishimo. It is the equivalent of a tux and tails. It is a hakama and matching overcoat that looks like bat wings. Very ShiShi :)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000476.html

David T Anderson
24th April 2001, 02:29
Mr. Threadgill Sensei -- Thanks very much for your response...things are starting to come clear.

What I'm mainly trying to avoid in my quest is a mistake like wearing a three-piece suit, but without
a shirt and tie. Evidently I'm on th eright track there. A couple more questions:

Are hakama always worn as part of the formal outfit? I thought that the long kimono
could be worn by itself [with an obi of course] under the haori. I have a heavy Bujin Design
hakama for Aikido practice, but it looks a little rough-and-ready for formal wear.

I don't know why I wrote keikogi...I think I meant montsuki. Is that basically a haori with narrower
sleeves?

Are family mons a big deal, like European coats of arms or heraldic crests, or are they more a
kind of badge that anybody can adopt, so long as they don't copy an established design?
[The Anderson family crest is an oak tree with gold acorns...I was thinking about using the
acorn by itself as a mon design. Good or bad idea, do you think?]

On the feet and legs...just tabi socks and sandals? I know that white tabi are for women or
highly formal occasions...I was going to go with black.

Thanks for your advice...I appreciate it very much. That's a fine picture, by the way.
Congratulations on your Menkyo Kaiden award...

24th April 2001, 21:05
David,

"Are hakama always worn as part of the formal outfit? I thought that the long kimono
could be worn by itself [with an obi of course] under the haori."

I am not positive about this but my guess would be yes, hakama are always part of a Japanese mans formal wear.

_____

"I have a heavy Bujin Design hakama for Aikido practice, but it looks a little rough-and-ready for formal wear."

A training hakama would not be appropriate. that would be like wearing blue jeans with your tuxedo.

_____

"I think I meant montsuki. Is that basically a haori with narrower sleeves?

No. A montsuke is a kimono with family crests on it. I don't believe wearing a specific crest is the big deal that it used to be.... but... I did receive specific permission to wear my instructors family crest when representing the art taught to me. This distinction is generally only afforded to certified instructors within the ryu and then only on special occasions.

_____


"On the feet and legs...just tabi socks and sandals? I know that white tabi are for women or
highly formal occasions...I was going to go with black.

Thats fine outdoors. Indoors only the tabi.


Toby Threadgill

David T Anderson
24th April 2001, 22:34
Sir -- Thanks for your additional information. Evidently there were no gaping holes in my understanding, except perhaps as regards the hakama.

I was interested to read some advice regarding making one's own hakama...apparently the formalwear hakama has a crotch located at about the knee level to accomodate the hem of a kimono, as opposed to a MA practice hakama, the crotch of which is located in a more northerly direction.

My Aikido sensei has a montsuke with the Nakayama crest on it...perhaps he can give me some advice on the finer points of wearing mon.

I'll be heading off to Vancouver next week, and I hope to find at least a few items in the 'Japantown' there. Obviously what the world needs is a good handbook on Japanese traditional clothing and how to wear it. At least I'm not trying to put together a woman's outfit...the mind truly boggles at that prospect.

Devon Smith
24th April 2001, 23:01
David, great questions and thanks to Toby for some insight.

You mentioned a special hakama; that sounds interesting. During my shihan jikiden I wore montsuki also, (pic) (http://www.izzy.net/~pilot/hawaii/11_14_00_newer_images/dev15.jpg ) receiving help from a couple of people "in the know" with the tying up of my kimono for use under a new "standard" hakama.

Toby, did you go through this too, or something different maybe? The reason I ask is that I couldn't see how the bottom of the kimono was being folded and probably couldn't duplicate it on my own without help.

Here's another pic (http://www.izzy.net/~pilot/honbu1.jpg) showing our soke in formal dress w/haori, just like Toby's photo.

Interesting topic!

Devon

David T Anderson
24th April 2001, 23:45
Originally posted by Devon Smith
During my shihan jikiden I wore montsuki also, receiving help from a couple of people "in the know" with the tying up of my kimono for use under a new "standard" hakama.
The reason I ask is that I couldn't see how the bottom of the kimono was being folded and probably couldn't duplicate it on my own without help.


Hi Devon -- This is interesting... It seems odd to me that a full-length kimono would be worn under hakama in any case...I would have thought that a special 'shortie' kimono would be ideal in this circumstance. I saw a reference somewhere about Japanese grooms needing special instruction on how to wear their wedding clothes...you probably received some of the same help they do.

The textile industry in Old Japan must have been _very_ productive to make the production and wear of such elaborate garments economical, even for the ruling class...

Walker
25th April 2001, 04:42
From The Book of Kimono by Yamanaka “During the Edo period, some townsmen and farmers had family crests, although they did not at that time always have surnames. After the meiji Restoration everyone took a surname and anyone so inclined could use a family crest.” (p.131)
The book does not mention wearing a shorter kimono with hakama although I think it is common nowadays to do so for martial arts exhibitions (along with faux juban panels at the collar.)