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Stephenjudoka
25th April 2001, 14:56
In the UK the main threat to a Police Officers life is a knife or edged weapon.
Although many criminals do carry firearms it is rare for them to be used against the Police.

However a larger number of offenders carry knives and some are not afraid to use them.
For many years I have looked at all types of techniques to deal with knives and I have done my best to take what I need from each system.

I have learned to always look for the signs of a knife, to keep distance etc. What I would like to be better at or have better knowledge of is 'How to deal with a knife' from a supprise attack, when an officer has got to close and does not have time to pull a weapon from a belt.
(Be it Baton or firearm).

At this present time I am using a system based on techniques from CODA (STAB) This system advocates switching off the delivery system (Ie: Striking the offender to knock them out).
I found the system very easy to teach to other officers and they seem to have picked it up well.

I was wondering if anyone out there knows of other systems I might be able to look at. It must be easy to kearn, easy to teach and easy to put into practice.

Another officer thanked me the other day. He stated he was confronted my a knifeman and he instinctively struck him with a chin jab using a palm heel strike.
It knocked the offender out cold.

I would like to add to my knowledge and then pass it onto my fellow officers in the UK

Thanking you in anticipation

Stephen Sweetlove

Sochin
25th April 2001, 16:15
"This system advocates switching off the delivery system (Ie: Striking the offender to knock them out)."

or incapcitating their breathing or eyesight (throat and eyes)...

http://americancombatives.com , John Kary's American Combatives has a good set of tapes.

George Ledyard
25th April 2001, 17:06
Sounds as if your system is effective. The biggest single problem I see in most knife defense systems, especially Aikido, is the lack of impact technique.

The system we use at Defensive Tactics Options is very simple. We use a "dive entry" (derived from Silat) in which we move directly at the subject's center with our hands in front of us functioning like the prow of a ship. Any incoming strike is picked up by the hands and deflected off to one side or the other. At that point we trap the knife hand and deliver as much impact technique (head butts, knees, elbows, etc) as is required to sufficiently tenderize the subject allowing for a safe disarm.

If there is more than one attacker, the impact techniques will focus heavily on the eyes and throat in order to incapacitate that subject on the first or second hit allowing movement to the next subject. Most of the practically oriented systems seem to be fairly similar. The entry seems to be the place at which the most divergence takes place.

Peyton Quinn has a very good system that is simple and effective (he's survived at least a couple of attempts). Check out his website for information about the training.http://www.rmcat.com/
He used to sell a video that outlined the system. it was simple and could easily be taught.

Stephenjudoka
25th April 2001, 18:30
Sochin,

I believe the CODA system is based on the same ideas as the AC.
The techniques look the same and I know some of the Instructors from CODA have trained with Mr Kary.
Thanks for showing me the site.
I will contact the English instructor Nick Collins (Who I happen to know but did not realise he was an instructor in the system. I know him from Judo).

Unfortunately some officers in the UK do not take the knife very seriously until it is to late.
I often hear "It is only a knife".
Very few officers wear knife resistant body armour although it is provided.

Since the training I have been giving to my officers the awareness has increased and a knife is taken very seriously.

In the past we have had several officers attacked with knives and one group attacked with a Samuri sword.

One officer was stabbed in the area of his heart but survived because he had his pocket book in his shirt pocket.
Another officer was stabbed in the groin and was lucky not to have bled to death. However he does have a very noticeable limp and can only work indoors.
Remember we do not carry firearms.

Any help I can get is very welcomed.

Stephen Sweetlove

Stephenjudoka
25th April 2001, 18:42
George,

Thanks for your help. I agree with you most systems are very similar and it is the entry that is different.
That is what I am looking for - the best way to block and enter.

I have found trapping very difficult when the offender is delivering mutiple strikes with the knife.

In an exercise I use, I get an officer to try to block and trap the knife arm. (The offender is armed with a felt tipped pen)When the exercise is over we check the officer for pen marks. There are many slashing marks and usually several very good fatal stabs.

When I re-run the exercise at the end of the lesson using the technique of switching off the delivery system the success rate is a lot higher (The knifeman starts to defend themselves against the blows and most forget all about the knife) however this is not foolproof and many officers still get pen marks on them - Not so many fatal blows this time.

If I could find a way of blocking or passing the knife to deliver the blows then I would be very happy.

Stephen Sweetlove

Jake Steinmann
26th April 2001, 13:27
Tony Blauer has some good material on dealing with the knife, again, with an emphasis on taking
out the delivery system (i.e. the bad guy).

www.tonyblauer.com

Check it out.

simon james
26th April 2001, 15:46
Hi Stephen,
I would strongly suggest that you look at the system Dennis Martin teaches here in the UK.
It is very simple. Easy to learn, use and teach.
Most importantly, it is usable under stress and in a real environment.
I have used it twice in real situations, with minimal injury, so I have no hesitation in recommending the training.
At the very least I think you would find something there to add to your current system.
Dennis can be reached at RealityCheckUK@hotmail.com for information on attending/organising courses.

Good luck with your training,

Simon James.

Sochin
26th April 2001, 17:06
Unfortunately some officers in the UK do not take the knife very seriously until it is to late.
I often hear "It is only a knife".
Very few officers wear knife resistant body armour although it is provided.

**********

My brother-in-law is a Dr. for a swat team in the Frisco bay area. They are required to watch the vido (of course I forget the name! :( )which is famous for the 21 foot rule. He's promised to get it to me a number of times but hasn't yet - they take knives very seriously.

Do you have the option of carrying a baton of some sort, perhaps a telescoping type? A few weeks training in elementary Filipino arts and you'll be ready to face a knife safely IF you have time to get it out!
The baton can be (almost) as fast as the knife and yet has the reach advantage, a good choice of tool to face a knife if you don't have a firearm.

Jake Steinmann
26th April 2001, 20:09
Ted,
I believe the video you're thinking of is "Surviving Edged Weapons" by Calibre Press.
I've yet to see it (I think it's only available to LEO's), but if I recall right, it shows (amoung other things) Dan
Inosanto and several other famous FMA guyshelping some officers demonstrate why a knife is a very
dangerous thing.
www.calibrepress.com is the URL

Stephenjudoka
26th April 2001, 23:39
Jake, Simon and Sochin,

Thanks for your help. I will follow up your advice.

I have the video Surviving edged weapons and I show it to all my recruits. ( I also have an English Police version)

I would like to thank everbody who has replied to me and I promise you I will follow up all the information I have been given.

Sochin I/we do carry a baton - 26inch ASP. As you say very effective but hard to draw if you are caught off gaurd.

Stephen Sweetlove

George Ledyard
27th April 2001, 08:51
Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
George,

Thanks for your help. I agree with you most systems are very similar and it is the entry that is different.
That is what I am looking for - the best way to block and enter.

I have found trapping very difficult when the offender is delivering mutiple strikes with the knife.

In an exercise I use, I get an officer to try to block and trap the knife arm. (The offender is armed with a felt tipped pen)When the exercise is over we check the officer for pen marks. There are many slashing marks and usually several very good fatal stabs.

When I re-run the exercise at the end of the lesson using the technique of switching off the delivery system the success rate is a lot higher (The knifeman starts to defend themselves against the blows and most forget all about the knife) however this is not foolproof and many officers still get pen marks on them - Not so many fatal blows this time.

If I could find a way of blocking or passing the knife to deliver the blows then I would be very happy.

Stephen Sweetlove

I just want to clarify what I said. Whereas trapping of the knife arm is usually a by-product of the "dive entry" we use, the main focus is on delivering impact technique on the first "beat" of the movement. It is very difficult for the attacker to deliver more than one cut or stab and normally they are not at targets considered terminal.

TIM BURTON
27th April 2001, 17:06
Leicester Mercury 21/4/01, sixth largest newspaper in UK, reported a serious assault where a knife was used in a nightclub. I sought out the officer in the case these are the facts.
0130am Saturday/Sunday, popular club, frequented by all ages, not known for its trouble. If you want a night out this is where you go. Experienced door staff, who have demonstrated their abilities to keep order time and time again. There is no conflict between the door staff and police.
Situation develops between a man and woman, she receives abuse from a stranger, until another man (1), unconnected, steps in to calm situation down. Abusive male draws blade and holds it in a threatening manner. Doorman (2) sees the confrontation but not the blade and moves in to stop it calling on other members of his team to help. Abusive male pushes him away and is dragged to the doors by other door staff (3) and ejected. Situation is resolved and hysterical woman is calmed down. Male (1) realises that he is having trouble moving his right arm, closer examination shows it is cut deep to the bone across the upper forearm. Result surgery and permanent loss of movement in middle and ring finger.
Doorman (2) on seeing injury of (1) examines “wetness”, on his chest attributed to sweating. He finds puncture wound from a stab and discovers his breathlessness is not from exertion but a punctured lung. Result hospitalisation. Doorman (3) aroused to the injuries of the other two, examines his dead leg to find a wound on inside of upper leg with arterial bleeding (very serious). Resulting in major surgery and permanent damage to the leg. The knife man who was ejected from premises disappeared into the night unidentified.
On interview male (1) only saw blade after wound had been inflicted and did not feel it until loss of movement drew his attention to it. Male (2) never saw a blade and thought he had been punched, he only discovered his wound after the event. Male (3) received a life threatening wound to his femoral artery that again was not recognised as such in the disturbance, he also did not see a blade.
In my opinion, unless you treat every situation as an armed threat, you do not have much of a chance against a blade. Once a blade is recognised, yes we can make a difference to our chances of survival, the presence of “defence wounds” on victims hands are an indication of this. If a wound is not at once fatal or incapacitating, then we can fight back and raise our chances of survival.
However, in my humble opinion, if someone has a knife and the serious intent to use it, you will be cut without realising it. They are not going to reveal their upper hand, just as you are not going to reveal your martial skills.
The best knife defence is to assume that all situations involve a weapon and act accordingly. Tell them straight away that you think they have a knife and will be treating them as such unless they can prove otherwise.

Derek McDonald
5th May 2001, 00:52
The last post really got me thinking. Over the years I have seen instructors teach a differing variety of strategies and tactics for knife defense--from staying outside, to risking a few cuts to close and control, or close and strike. I would appreciate reading about any personal or second-hand experiences that would shed more light on the subject.

Personally, I have only had to deal with the knife once--as a child I was confronted in a playground by a knife-wielding teenager, I threw a piece of concrete reinforcement (rebar), which struck the villain across both knees causing him to fall to the ground. A fact I only noticed after I had stopped running in the opposite direction.

The lesson for me: Discretion is the better part of valor, but it helps if you have a hefty piece of metal.

I have an acquaintance who was stabbed in the heart because he successfully blocked a robber's punch in low-light conditions, but failed to notice that the punch was actually a knife attack (he lived but was not himself for sometime).

The lesson for me: Expect the unexpected.

One of my former students--who was 50 years old at the time--was accosted at an ATM machine by two knife-wielding thugs. He turned from the machine, saw the knife presented by the first thug in line, and before the thug had a chance to demand his money, he reacted--completely out of instinct--by grabbing the wrist that held the knife and twisting hard as he rotated and dropped into a horse stance. After the screaming thug's arm broke in two places my student counted coup by knocking him out with a punch to the face. He then executed a hop-in side kick to the second thug--who was temporarily frozen by the unexpected turn-of-events--and violently dislocated his knee. Result: Two thugs crying for help and one student who will check the bushes before making any late-night cash withdrawals.

The lesson for me: A simple technique practiced a thousand times may be more useful than a more sophisticated technique that has not yet become automatic (At the time of this incident I was teaching Tang Soo Do, a predominately punch and kick-based art, I am not suggesting that a more sophisticated (from my perspective) operating system, such as Aiki-Jujutsu, would not be as effective. I am only making the observation that--regardless of your methods--the ability to react automatically is most important.

One of my past instructors recounted that--as a military policeman stationed in a foreign port in the late 50's--he had to disarm knife wielding drunks on a regular basis (at least 30 times by his telling). His fail-safe technique was either a step-in or jump-in side kick to the solar plexus, followed by a sound drubbing about the head and shoulders with a nightstick.

The lesson for me: Go with what you know and carry a big stick

Another acquaintance was attacked by three thugs as he and his girlfriend sat talking--at dusk--in his car which was parked in a shopping mall. The bad guys had coasted a car behind them to prevent escape, and as one assailant prevented my friend from opening his door, the other smashed his girlfriends window in and began to beat her savagely. Because of his seated position, my friend--in spite of years of martial arts training--was effectively helpless. Luckily, he had just returned from a knife-defense class and was able grab his knife, whereupon he leaned over and delivered one stab to the attacker who seemed bent on killing his girlfriend. The knife penetrated at the hollow between clavicle and neck, causing the attacker to cease hostilities, and within a few minutes, to die. My friend's action saved his and his girlfriend's lives. Years later he expressed that the incident had taken--and continued to take--a heavy and persistent emotional toll on both he and his girlfriend.

The lesson for me: You never know when it will happen. Train hard and train for the worst. (I do not tell this story lightly, and I hope if my friend reads this he will understand that his story is told so that others may prevail in the face of evil.)

My general take on knife-defense is this: chaos will be the order of the day--and although (a) technique is better than no technique--if you are serious about prevailing, you will train for dynamically unfolding situations versus static engagements. I also remember what Dad told me, "If you go to a knife fight, bring a pistol".

Respectfully,
Derek McDonald

cu_ulad
8th May 2001, 18:11
Professor Rick Hernandez teaches the <a href="http://www.tacsafe.com">TACSAFE</a> system (Tactical Awareness and Control Strategies Against Firearms and Edged weapons), which has recently garnered acceptance from Quantico, VA for the FBI SWAT teams. It covers Knives, defence against knives, and many other areas of CQC.

George Ledyard
23rd May 2001, 06:01
Originally posted by Sochin
My brother-in-law is a Dr. for a swat team in the Frisco bay area. They are required to watch the vido (of course I forget the name! :( )which is famous for the 21 foot rule. He's promised to get it to me a number of times but hasn't yet - they take knives very seriously.

Do you have the option of carrying a baton of some sort, perhaps a telescoping type? A few weeks training in elementary Filipino arts and you'll be ready to face a knife safely IF you have time to get it out!
The baton can be (almost) as fast as the knife and yet has the reach advantage, a good choice of tool to face a knife if you don't have a firearm.

The problem here is two fold.

First, if you get a chance to see the Surviving Edged Weapons video you should do so. Interviews with quite a number of officers that survived attacks with edged weapons showed that not a single one of them knew he was in an edged weapons situation until after he was stabbed, usually several times.
Almost none of the survivors who did fight off the attack did so using any of the wepons they possessed. it was straight empty hand impact technique that saved them.

In terms of Use of Force for Law Enforcement using a baton against an aggressor with a knife is an inapproprite matchup. There is no Defensive Tactics training institute in the country that would train officers to match a stick against a knife. (Unless you just happened to be using your impact weapon when the knife appeared). The fact that we might be able to do so ourselves or know people who could is beside the point. An officer is allowed to do whatever he needs to to go home safely at the end of the day. They don't get paid enough to take the risk of meeting knives with sticks. If you could get your stick out in time you could get your gun out and that is what is taught around the country (obviously the UK and Japan are different).

This really is the same as non-trained people suggesting that officers "shoot to wound". There is not a single firearms teacher or agency with whom I am familiar that teaches an officer to "shoot to wound". You shoot to END THE THREAT. The fastest and most reliable way to do that is to put the shots on center mass. Anything else puts the safety of the officer and other citizens at risk. This gets into the realm of what Kit was talking about when he mentioned being wary of martial arts epeople who offer to teach police techniques. They are often completely unaware of the Use of Force constraints that govern law enforcement personel and often make technical suggestions that are unrealistic for the law enforcement environment.

ninaiki
23rd May 2001, 13:02
Getting back to the original question on how to deal with a surprise attack from a knife.

It seems that you have had plenty of training to deal with edged weapons, once the student is proficient and confident with the techniques the next step is to train the individuals awareness.

create realistic environments that will apply the apropriate preasures to which the person may be subject to. Sometimes let the aggressor produce a knife and sometimes not. Other times have the attack come from any direction and not always the person being dealt with. Use single and multiple attackers, use obsticals, train in different locations ,in the rain ,fog ,snow, dim light or no light,on slopes ,stairs, cramped spaces, and the list goes on. Make sure the defender does'nt know what to expect , but the others involved now what their part is in the situation.

This may sound a little extreme and time consuming but how well do you value your life or for that matter the life of your partner?

and yes the video, Surviving edged weapons is a must see for anyone teaching or learning defences against this weapon

George Ledyard
23rd May 2001, 20:00
Originally posted by ninaiki
Getting back to the original question on how to deal with a surprise attack from a knife.

It seems that you have had plenty of training to deal with edged weapons, once the student is proficient and confident with the techniques the next step is to train the individual’s awareness.

create realistic environments that will apply the appropriate pressures to which the person may be subject to. Sometimes let the aggressor produce a knife and sometimes not. Other times have the attack come from any direction and not always the person being dealt with. Use single and multiple attackers, use obstacles, train in different locations ,in the rain ,fog ,snow, dim light or no light, on slopes ,stairs, cramped spaces, and the list goes on. Make sure the defender doesn’t know what to expect , but the others involved now what their part is in the situation.

This may sound a little extreme and time consuming but how well do you value your life or for that matter the life of your partner?

and yes the video, Surviving edged weapons is a must see for anyone teaching or learning defenses against this weapon

You get to the heart of the matter here! Awareness is the absolute requirement of any of system. It won't matter what you have studied or how many killer techniques you have, if you are knocked cold or stabbed in a vital area on the first blow you won't be able to respond.

This is the heart of the Japanese martial arts in the end. Since all of your enemies are assumed to be professional warriors, knowledge of technique isn't much of an edge. The element of surprise makes up for a lot of technical disadvantage. This is true both in individual combat and on the level of large military operations.

The ability to sense when a situation is potentially turning bad, the constant monitoring of the hands of any potential attackers, proper positioning relative to the threat(s)... All of this in the end is more important than tons of technique. Peyton Quinn's knife defense technique is ridiculously simple but his emphasis on situational awareness, conflict resolution, the psychology of the predator etc. is very sophisticated.

Most of us are teaching martial arts in a dojo setting. I teach my students pretty solid knife defense technique I believe and I put a lot of emphasis on the proper mindset when we practice it. But I also try to let my students know that if they want to be competent on the street they should enlarge their training by doing training of the sort you are suggesting. In the Law Enforcement training arena this would be the difference between the teaching of the actual techniques (Defensive Tactics) and the teaching the context in which these techniques are applied (Patrol Procedures).

This is the weak link in most training systems. In my dojo I am teaching traditional Aikido as a martial art system. I am largely teaching technique and the associated mindset that goes with the execution of these techniques (not to mention the philosophy etc.) I do not bill this training as a "self defense" class.

A self-defense class usually focuses more on context and keeps the techniques simple. I think that most of my students realize that if they wish to be street competent in their Aikido they should attempt to get additional training that is specifically street oriented.

I know I keep mentioning Peyton Quinn but this is exactly what he is doing with his institute in Colorado. I significant number of his students are martial artists who wish to put their training into a more applied context than is available in the typical dojo. He even has teachers who bring whole groups of their senior students down to do the training. His training is not style specific, it can make any person more competent at real life application of the techniques he or she already knows.

Tony Blauer has really pioneered this type of context sensitive training by developing not only protective gear for the attacker so that you can execute your techniques with power but he also has protective gear for the students so that they can safely do the type of training being described here. If you are going to try training in stairwells and in parking lots etc. you need to provide some protection for both the students and the instructors or you will have an unacceptable incidence of injury.

ninaiki
24th May 2001, 11:31
Originally posted by George Ledyard



Tony Blauer has really pioneered this type of context sensitive training by developing not only protective gear for the attacker so that you can execute your techniques with power but he also has protective gear for the students so that they can safely do the type of training being described here. If you are going to try training in stairwells and in parking lots etc. you need to provide some protection for both the students and the instructors or you will have an unacceptable incidence of injury.


My apolagies, how did i forget the safty factor


always make sure you make the training as safe as possable for all concerned, while doing your best to keep the realizm.

Neil Hawkins
26th May 2001, 01:31
Ninaiki,

Welcome, it's good to see another Australian here.

I should point out though that forum rules require you to sign all posts with your full name. A simple way to remember is to create a signature and have it automatically added to your post. This can be done in the change profile area.

Regards

Neil

MPraskey
26th May 2001, 03:42
I have to agree with Mr. Ledyard. I've done various martial arts
for over half my life, but the drills for dealing with "the slasher"
were always bad. I could take the guy down, but almost never without reciving at least one cut in the process. Every time, I wished I'd had a gun and the oppurtunity to use it. Maybe you can take the guy out without one, but given the choice I wouldn't want to.

Mike Praskey

Kit LeBlanc
26th May 2001, 05:31
Mike,

I think anyone would agree with you, I would rather bring a gun to a knife fight. The problem is getting to it.

Surviving Edged Weapons popularized the "21 foot rule" which is commonly taught in law enforcement today, but there is a lot more thought being put into this today. The average knife attack does not occur from 20 odd feet, where the assailant draws the blade and slowly advances while brandishing the weapon, allowing you repeated commands to "drop the weapon" before placing two rounds center mass. It is more likely to occur from conversational distance, be a surprise assault, and often times the officer may not even be aware he is being cut/stabbed.

When assaulted at such close range, if your first impulse is to go for the sidearm while backpedaling (the overwhelmingly most common response which even happens to the best of us) or sidestepping ( a little better), you are very much in for a slicing and dicing. You will not beat the knifer and if he continues his momentum you may be done for, all the while trying to get that weapon out.

More and more articles are being written where empty handed reaction, whatever technically it may entail, is used to deflect the intial assault in order to shift position off line and buy the extra seconds to deploy the side arm. Certainly you'll probably get cut and need to train with this in mind, but it is a lot better than getting dead.

Kit

MPraskey
27th May 2001, 02:43
I suppose as usual, the most important thing is knowing
where his hands are. If they go out of sight, problem.

Mike Praskey.

Binary
3rd June 2001, 05:34
Hi,

During the late 90's I worked as a dorrman in North London.

During that time I was unfortunate enough to be attacked by a knife on 3 occaisions.

The first was whilst patrolling the perimeter of an outdoor festival. I was confronted by three guys who had been previously thrown out.

One ran towards me from about 3 meters and shouted he was going to "cut me up". I was carrying a maglite at the time (One of the two "D" cell ones) and I struck him on the jaw with it. He went straight out and I manged to force the other two back until help arrived.

In this instance the knife wielder alerted me to his attack and gave me enough time to pre-empt it. This likely saved me from serious injury or worse.

The second attack happened in a club I was working. I was escorting a drunken customer from the club (Nothing heavy, just a guiding hand on the shoulder) when the brother of someone we had refused entry to stabbed at me with a Stanley knife (This is a craft style knife with a blade about 1 inch long - ususally used for cutting floor tyles and the like).

The guy stabbed from about the 7 O'clock position and the blade struck my shoulder. Luckily the guy hit the shoulder pad in my club-issue blazer and only gave me slight cut. I spun and the knife stayed stuck in my coat. I was then able to imobilse my attacker. (As an aside, the Stanley knife had 3 blades inserted, each seperated with a strip of card. The idea being that a slash from this would leave a very nasty scar. The guy had also coated the blades in Garlic to prevent the blood from clotting - not nice at all!).

I was extremly lucky to survive this attack without injury - the attacker gave no inclination of the assault and, but for blind luck, he could have killed me.

The final assault happened outside my home. I was returning from work at around 5 am when a guy I had previously encountered stepped out of the bushes with a huge great big machete. He was about 3 meters from me and began shouting abuse.

I took one look at him and ran for it... The police picked him a few hours later at his home.

In this scenarion there was no way I was going to try my luck against an armed attacker. Definately a case of discretion being the batter part of valour!



One of my old instructors (John Aitkin of the Advanced Fighting Centre in Newcastle - superb teacher - well worth a visit if you are in the area) told me that "A show-er never cuts and a cutter never shows". Basically what he meant, and what my experience seems to show, is that you need to be extremly lucky to survive a surprise knife attack without injury but that if you get advance knowledge of the attack your chances increase dramatically.

Hope that is of interest,

Binary

Stephenjudoka
3rd June 2001, 23:14
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
I agree with what you say. If they show the knife it is more of a threat than an attack.
The determined attacker rarely shows the blade until it has struck home.

I know there is no easy answer.

Stephen Sweetlove
The older I get the better I was.

MPraskey
4th June 2001, 12:03
Or at least a *smart* attacker :)

Mike Praskey

Binary
10th June 2001, 00:46
Hi,

Another anecdote I heard was on a Geoff Thompson COurse back around '94.

Apparantly a well known doorman was in a club talking to some friends at the bar.

He was approached by a young lad who asked him if he carried.

He replied that he didn't need to carry upon which the lad pulled a blade and stabbed him several times. The doorman later died of his injuries.

This further illustrates the difficulty of dealing with a surprise knife attack.

I wondder if any stats are available on attacks with knives and the scenario/outcome. Perhaps from the police or a similar organisation.

Would anyone here know of any?

Cheers,

James Marwood

TIM BURTON
10th June 2001, 11:51
Hi James,
Here are a few Statistics that are well researched and documented even if a little dated.

Out of instruments used to kill, edged weapons are the most common (7 in 20)
UK Home office Personal violence research study 1989

In 50% of muggings on men the assailant is armed with a sharp instrument such as a knife or screwdriver.
British crime survey 1992

In the US
The most commonly used weapon is some type of firearm, followed by edged weapons.
FBI statistics show that 4% of all attacks on Police officers are by firearms, whilst 3% are edged weapons.

Interestingly of the persons shot approx. 10% die of their wounds, whilst of those stabbed approx. 30% will die from their wounds.

1992 was a busy homicide year in West Scotland with 56% being the result of a stabbing.
Research by Dr J Cassidy Consultant Forensic Pathologist, Glasgow University shows that;

Typical depth of stab wounds in homicide cases is 1” to 1 ¼” through the ribcage into the heart.

Main types of wound causing death are single stab wounds.

Even short bladed knives can penetrate the abdomen by 8 to 10cm

3cm allows penetration of the ribs

4cm allows penetration of the heart

Because of the small surface area the amount of force per unit area is tons per square inch.

The homicide rate from stab wounds would be much higher except for excellent paramedic skills

Many people do not realise they have been stabbed until they see blood or feel faint. They think they have been punched.

A survey in 1993 by Peel Regional Police Canada showed that where officers were confronted by a aperson armed with a knife. 67% faced a kitchen knife with a substantial blade.

Research by Sgt Dennis Tueller, Salt Lake City Police Dept. 1983, showed that a man armed with a knife could close a gap of 21 feet and deliver a fatal thrust in 1.5 seconds on average.

The common source of all above is the:
Instructors Training Manual on Edged Weapon Awareness and Spontaneous Knife Defence, Peter Boatman, Northamptonshire Police UK.

Binary
10th June 2001, 22:08
Hi Tim,

Thnat was most interesting thanks (Some of this figures look quite familiar - I should really know that as I studied Criminology for 3 Years!)

You mentioned a training Manual by Peter Boatman.

Is that available to buy outside of the Police Service?

Cheers,

James Marwood

TIM BURTON
18th June 2001, 23:43
No sorry, the manual itself is restricted to the police service. I got away with quoting the stats as they are public records.
I do not know, but maybe a direct request to Peter Boatman may get you some where, he is very approachable and may well assist your research.

Binary
18th June 2001, 23:51
Ahh Well...

Thanks for your reply...

Do you know how I could contact Peter Boatman?

Also I recently read a reference to an American called Bruce Siddle.

Apparantly he devised a system of knife defnce which was very effective.

Do you (Or any others) know any thing about it?

Cheers,

James Marwood

simon james
19th June 2001, 10:54
Also I recently read a reference to an American called Bruce Siddle.

Apparantly he devised a system of knife defnce which was very effective.

Do you (Or any others) know any thing about it?

Cheers,

James Marwood


## Hi James,
Siddle runs the training group PPCT
http://www.ppct.com/index.htm. They've done a lot of very sound research into combat performance under stress & produced some good stuff.
Siddle's book Sharpening The Warriors edge is essential reading !
The knife defence is kali based, & is presented in a well-structured program.
Personally I prefer the G.U.N. system as designed by Lt Gary Klugiewicz of the Milwaulkee County Sheriff's Dept. It was devised for prison officers,where often space is extremely limited so they don't have the luxury of more evasive tactics.
This makes it practical in a wide range of circumstances. In a narrow hallway or crowded nightclub for example.

I was lucky enough to see the knife on the two occassions I've faced one, but I must echo what others have said here that seeing the blade is a rarity.
I know quite a few people who have been stabbed & had no idea until after the incident was over, or till they passed out..
Two of my mates were stabbed several times each as they dragged a guy up the stairs out of a club I used to work at. Afterwards one noticed the other was standing in a pool of blood, & then spotted the pool around his own feet.
The guy's mate had been walking up the stairs behind them stabbing them in the backs of their legs.

Another guy had a fight with another doorman. He thought he was winning until everything went black. The other guy had a balisong knife in each hand.
What's interesting is that this happened on the street in front of
many witnesses & NO ONE saw the knives.

Cheers,

Simon