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Paul Madory
26th April 2001, 00:53
I am looking for the proper Japanese names for the groundfighting postures popularized through NHB matches:

1) Standing Between The Legs of a Prone Opponent

2) Standing Over One Leg of a Prone Opponent

3) Kneeling Over One Leg of a Prone Opponent (Offensive) / Half-Guard (Defensive)

4) Kneeling Between The legs (Offensive) / Guard or Crab (Defensive)

5) Kneeling on Midsection

6) Top Base (a.k.a. Mount or Full Mount)

7) Top Base, Opponent Face-Down

8) Side Base (a.k.a. Side Control or Crossbody I think)

9) Side Base, Opponent Face-Down (a.k.a. Quarter-Posture I think)

10) Scarf

11) Sixty-Nine

12) Both Sitting in Seiza Face-to-Face

Also, besides groundfighting, what is the name of this position?

13) Kneeling on one Knee

...is it tatehiza or is that something else?

Although the Bujinkan is "accepting" in general of jujutsu-style groundfighting, it is not often emphasized and not formally codified with names of postures to my knowledge.

Thanks!

tommysella
26th April 2001, 07:29
Hi Paul!

I think I can help you with some of them at least. This is the names we use in Judo

For scarf we use kesa. For example: kesa gatame

We use the name idori for facing each other in seiza. Idori means something like "taking hold while sitting in one place".

We call the Kneeling on one knee for kyoshi. But it depends a bit on the position on the knee...

I think I could have some names for the others aswell, but I don't understand the terms. For example side base...

Yours sincerely,

Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

tommysella
26th April 2001, 07:29
Hi Paul!

I think I can help you with some of them at least. This is the names we use in Judo

For scarf we use kesa. For example: kesa gatame

We use the name idori for facing each other in seiza. Idori means something like "taking hold while sitting in one place".

We call the Kneeling on one knee for kyoshi. But it depends a bit on the position on the knee...

I think I could have some names for the others aswell, but I don't understand the terms. For example side base...

Yours sincerely,

Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

Paul Madory
26th April 2001, 14:13
Hey thanks Tommy! Every little bit helps...

"Side Base" is being on your hands and knees at a ninety-degree angle over a prone opponent. Make sense?

"Top Base" is sitting on your prone opponent's stomach or lower back and facing their head, with your legs kneeling on either side.

(How's that for anatomically precise descriptions?)

If there are any others I listed you might know but need more description, lemme know!

Steve Delaney
26th April 2001, 15:14
Mr. Madory,

The "side base" as you call it, is called yoko shiho gatame in Japanese.

By "sixty-nine," I think you are talking about kami Shiho gatame. If this is performed at an angle, with your legs forty -five degrees from your head, it is called kuzure kami shiho gatame.

A lot of the techniques you have listed, have origins in Kodokan Judo. Yoko shiho, kami shiho and kuzure kami shiho all come from the Kodokan Katame No Kata.

Slainte,

TIM BURTON
26th April 2001, 16:10
Hi Paul,
Many of the classifications in Japanese that I am aware of tend to describe the technique that is being applied rather than the position of the body. For example number 6 could be Tate shiho gatame if pinning or Kata juji jime if strangling.
Anything with your opponent on their front will not be a pin (in Judo terms) so techniques applied whilst your opponent is on their front are such things as Ude hishigi ashi gatame.
1) Standing Between The Legs of a Prone Opponent
?
2) Standing Over One Leg of a Prone Opponent
?
3) Kneeling Over One Leg of a Prone Opponent (Offensive) / Half-Guard (Defensive)
?
4) Kneeling Between The legs (Offensive) / Guard or Crab (Defensive)
?
5) Kneeling on Midsection
?
6) Top Base (a.k.a. Mount or Full Mount)
TATE SHIHO GATAME
7) Top Base, Opponent Face-Down
?
8) Side Base (a.k.a. Side Control or Crossbody I think)
YOKO SHIHO GATAME
9) Side Base, Opponent Face-Down (a.k.a. Quarter-Posture I think)
?
10) Scarf
HON KESA GATAME
11) Sixty-Nine
KAMI SHIHO GATAME
12) Both Sitting in Seiza Face-to-Face
IDORI
IF SEPARATED BY SMALL DISTANCE (TWO FISTS) THEN HIZA ZUME

Also, besides groundfighting, what is the name of this position?

13) Kneeling on one Knee
...is it tatehiza or is that something else?
TAKAKYOSHI NO KAMAE

Sorry that I cannot be of more help. Good luck.

Paul Madory
1st May 2001, 00:34
Thanks for all the replies everyone! I appreciate it very much!!

You saved me many strange embarrassing looks if I ever relied on my self-taught ne-waza vocabulary in a traditional dojo setting - "Yessiree Bob - ptooey! - that them there ain't no sport fightin' words..."

Paul Madory
2nd May 2001, 00:36
One more thing though....

The language is ambiguous about "the guard" in both English NHB lingo and apparently in proper classical Japanese labels as well. There are really two positions since there are two people in different postures. I have yet to find a good name for "Kneeling Between The Legs of a Prone Opponent In The Guard" (that's too long!).

In ninjutsu, we would simply say gedan no kamae (low-level posture) for kneeling. But that is not a good enough phrase to cover Kneeling In Someone's Guard which is more specifically context-based. Maybe the label exists in Japanese, maybe it doesn't exist at all - anyone?

Also: how about a label name for:

1) "lying down on the ground on your back"

2) "lying down on the ground on your stomach"

Thanks everyone!

MarkF
2nd May 2001, 11:36
Originally posted by TIM BURTON
Hi Paul,
Many of the classifications in Japanese that I am aware of tend to describe the technique that is being applied rather than the position of the body. For example number 6 could be Tate shiho gatame if pinning or Kata juji jime if strangling.
Anything with your opponent on their front will not be a pin (in Judo terms) so techniques applied whilst your opponent is on their front are such things as Ude hishigi ashi gatame.
1) Standing Between The Legs of a Prone Opponent
?
2) Standing Over One Leg of a Prone Opponent
?
3) Kneeling Over One Leg of a Prone Opponent (Offensive) / Half-Guard (Defensive)
?
4) Kneeling Between The legs (Offensive) / Guard or Crab (Defensive)
?
5) Kneeling on Midsection
?
6) Top Base (a.k.a. Mount or Full Mount)
TATE SHIHO GATAME
7) Top Base, Opponent Face-Down
?
8) Side Base (a.k.a. Side Control or Crossbody I think)
YOKO SHIHO GATAME
9) Side Base, Opponent Face-Down (a.k.a. Quarter-Posture I think)
?
10) Scarf
HON KESA GATAME
11) Sixty-Nine
KAMI SHIHO GATAME
12) Both Sitting in Seiza Face-to-Face
IDORI
IF SEPARATED BY SMALL DISTANCE (TWO FISTS) THEN HIZA ZUME

Also, besides groundfighting, what is the name of this position?

13) Kneeling on one Knee
...is it tatehiza or is that something else?
TAKAKYOSHI NO KAMAE

Sorry that I cannot be of more help. Good luck.

I can help with one or two, but in 38 years I've never asked or been asked on some of these. That doesn't meant there isn't a term, but I find English to be easiest since I don't know or speak Japanese. If you are going to use Japanese, though, learn it well, and use it correctly. The same in English, and that is what is important. For example, many shorten judogi or keikogi to "gi." This is not only wrong, it is bad grammar, so it is "dogi" instead.

That said:

5)Kneeling on midsection:
Hiza gatame (not something ordinarily done in judo)
12) Seiza
This is the posture when doing kime no kata sitting, or just as Tim said, idori-waza.
*****

Bottom line, judoka are not "nearly so specific.":)

Mark

Brian Griffin
2nd May 2001, 15:03
Originally posted by MarkF
5)Kneeling on midsection:
Hiza gatame (not something ordinarily done in judo)

I think Mr. Feigenbaum meant ukigatame. We do it in Judo all the time ;)
hizagatame is a leg-lock. We don't (usually) do that in Judo...well...OK, once in a while :)

Also, it needs to be pointed out that "prone" means "face down."
The initial poster may have intended to write "supine."

The correct term for the situation in which you remain standing
over your supine opponent is...IPPON!!!

A "closed guard" is merely dojime, whether you're on top or bottom.

The "open guard" could be chouza or ashi shigarami depending on ma-ai.

The face-down pin is ushirogatame.

Kneeling-on-one-knee can also be called hantachigamae

Brian Griffin
3rd May 2001, 09:40
AAAARRGH!!
When I said:

hizagatame is a leg-lock.I may have left an inaccurate impression.

I was referring to ashi-hishigi hizagatame.
There is another technique-- ude-hishigi hizagatame -- which is an armbar, and perfectly legal in shiai.

Sorry for the ambiguity.

Paul Madory
9th May 2001, 14:10
Thanks for correction on the English word "prone". That usage slipped my mind. Are there Japanese equivalents to "prone" or "supine" in general usage in jujutsu?

The only posture left from my original list is "Side Base, Back". Is there a specific name for this kamae?

MarkF
10th May 2001, 09:43
Brian,
Please! It's Mark.

Sometimes I just don't want to feel my age, you know?;)

Mark

PS: By the way. I was using a term I read on a Daitoryu web page, and not a very good one, I'm afraid.:o

Brian Griffin
10th May 2001, 09:57
Originally posted by MarkF
Brian,
Please! It's Mark.When I got to my middle-teens, my sensei told me I should call him by his first name.
Decades later, I still can't bring myself to do it. It's just the way I was brought up, I guess.

Sometimes I just don't want to feel my age, you know?;)You're exhibiting the classic symptoms of an ibuprofen deficiency.
Time to increase your dosage of "judo vitamins." :)