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Martin H
27th July 2000, 12:15
Hello everyone,

Im searching for informaton about Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, Who taught JJ to the founder of my style (kyokushinkai karate), Masutatsu Oyama.

He was a shihan of Shiragi Saburo Takeda Ryu Jujutsu (a
substyle of Daito ryu), and a student of Morihei Ueshiba of Aikido (actualy he was a "Ani dechi", but Im not familiar with the term).
I have also heard that he also was a master of Yanagi-Ryu Aikijujutsu, but that is unconfirmed.

He founded a JJ. style known as Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu, in which he awarded Mas. Oyama a Menkyo Kaiden.
I think he died 1962 or 1963

Does anyone know more about him and his life?
Does his Ryu still exist, and is there any information available about it?

Any help is appreciated.

Martin H
Sweden

Walker
27th July 2000, 18:55
The thumbnail history as I understand it is:
Kotaro Yoshida (1883 - 1966) was a journalist and member of the Black Dragon Society. He was acquainted with Sokaku Takeda and studied Daito Ryu with him (awarded Kyoju Dairi). He introduced Ueshiba to Sokaku in 1915. He was also adept at his family art of Yanagi Ryu and incorporated principles from Daito Ryu into it and taught both in Tokyo after the war. His son was Kenji Yoshida who became estranged from his father and moved to the USA before the war and later taught Yanagi Ryu to Angier Sensei. There are also connections with the Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
References would be Aikido Journal v.26 #2 and v.27 #1 and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu by Stanley Pranin.
Hope this helps.

Yamantaka
27th July 2000, 20:26
Originally posted by Walker
His son was Kenji Yoshida who became estranged from his father and moved to the USA before the war and later taught Yanagi Ryu to Angier Sensei. There are also connections with the Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
References would be Aikido Journal v.26 #2 and v.27 #1 and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu by Stanley Pranin.
Hope this helps.
[/B]

Also, it's said that Yoshida Kenji, on his death-bed, passed his art to Don Angier, which is considered by many as the new soke of the art. The story may be true or not but Angier Sensei's ability is recognized by many serious people throughout the world, as Stan Pranin, Katsuyuki Kondo and Okamoto Seigo, if I'm not mistaken.
An excellent article about Don Angier Sensei and Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei is in the last number of Aikido Journal(#119, I think).
Best regards
Ubaldo.

28th July 2000, 00:42
Hi Guys,

It's interesting how myth and reality sort of combine together sometimes to create a larger more inaccutate myth.

Posted by a Mr Martin H?

____________________________________________________________
"Im searching for informaton about Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, Who taught JJ to the founder of my style (kyokushinkai karate), Masutatsu Oyama."
____________________________________________________________

This is accurate. Yoshida Kotaro did teach jujutsu ( Daito ryu ) To Mas Oyama. This is confirmed in the teaching ledgers of Yoshida Kotaro where Mas Oyama's name is recorded.



____________________________________________________________
"He was a shihan of Shiragi Saburo Takeda Ryu Jujutsu (a
substyle of Daito ryu), and a student of Morihei Ueshiba of Aikido (actualy he was a "Ani dechi", but Im not familiar with the term)."
____________________________________________________________

I am unfamiliar with any substyle of Daito ryu by the name referenced above. In conversation with aiki historian, Stan Pranin just now, he flatly stated that this information is incorrect. Yoshida Kotaro received a mainline Daito ryu Kyoju Dairi from Sokaku Takeda, not some substyle. Yoshida Kotaro also was definitely not a student of Ueshiba Morihei. In fact Yoshida Kotaro was senior to Ueshiba in Daito ryu and introduced Ueshiba to Takeda thereby sponsoring his entrance into the Daito ryu.



____________________________________________________________
"I have also heard that he also was a master of Yanagi-Ryu Aikijujutsu, but that is unconfirmed."
____________________________________________________________

This is not unconfirmed. Yoshida Kotaro was the headmaster of Yanagi ryu and taught certain portions of Yanagi ryu to Kondo Katsuyuki, the only recognized holder of Daito ryu Menkyo Kaiden. Kondo Sensei once personally inspected the Yanagi ryu teaching license held by Yoshida Kotaro. This information I received directly from Kondo Sensei during a visit to his home in 1996.



____________________________________________________________
"He founded a JJ. style known as Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu, in which he awarded Mas. Oyama a Menkyo Kaiden."


____________________________________________________________

This information is obviously incorrect. Yoshida Kotaro was not a ryuso of any style. He certainly did not found Daito ryu Aiki Bujutsu. Yoshida Kotaro could never have issued a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito ryu to Mas Oyama because he did not have the authority or position to do so. Only Sokaku Takeda would have been able to award anyone that rank and Mas Oyama never studied under Takeda.

These facts are so well documented that there is virtually no wiggle room for speculation or debate here.


____________________________________________________________
Does anyone know more about him and his life?

____________________________________________________________

Stan Pranin is probably the best authority on Yoshida Kotaro easily accessible. I believe information on him is available on the Aikido Journal website.


____________________________________________________________
Does his Ryu still exist, and is there any information available about it?
____________________________________________________________

By his ryu, I am assuming that you are referencing The Yoshida family art of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei. Information on this ryu and it's current headmaster, Don Angier is available in Aikido Journal #119 which is on the bookshelves right now.

Also relevent must be Daito ryu Aikijujutsu. The art has been essentially headed by the aforementioned Kondo Katsuyuki since Takeda Tokimune's death. Information on the Daito ryu and it's various ryuha is also available in Aikido Journal, it's website and several books.

Of interesting note to you should be the fact that several high ranking Kyokushinkai instructors have trained extensively in the Daito ryu Roppokai under Okamoto Seigo.



____________________________________________________________


Posted by Ubaldo:

"Also, it's said that Yoshida Kenji, on his death-bed, passed his art to Don Angier, which is considered by many as
the new soke of the art."
____________________________________________________________

This is not really accurate. I'm actually smiling a little here. The art was not passed to Don Angier by Yoshida Kenji during some death bed vigil (What a great movie scene!). Thats way too melodramatic. The art was effectively passed to Don Angier when Yoshida Kenji ( the son of Kotaro and appointed successor) realized that he would never return to Japan. At that point he realized that for the art to survive he had to adopt Don Angier as a yoshi. He did this long before he was confined to bed. At this time he presented Don with the family mons and gave him the Japanese name Yoshida Kensaburo. Don Angier was overseas on military duty when Yoshida Kenji passed away from silicosis.

____________________________________________________________

Posted by Doug Walker:

"His son was Kenji Yoshida who became estranged from his father and moved to the USA before the war and later taught Yanagi Ryu to Angier Sensei. There are also connections with the Shindo Yoshin Ryu."
____________________________________________________________

This is accurate but I must mention that the connections between Yoshida Kotaro and Shindo Yoshin ryu were by way of Ohbata Shigeta and therefore only include the Takamura ryuha of Shindo Yoshin ryu. Even then, the technical connection from Daito ryu to the Takamura ha shindo Yoshin ryu is quite minimal


____________________________________________________________


I hope this helps,





[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-27-2000 at 06:53 PM]

MarkF
28th July 2000, 10:54
Welcome to E-budo, Martin H!
Please note forum rules and please sign all your posts with your full name. It is easiest by utilizing the signature box in your profile :wave:

Yamantaka
28th July 2000, 11:50
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
[B]
Posted by Ubaldo:
"Also, it's said that Yoshida Kenji, on his death-bed, passed his art to Don Angier, which is considered by many as
the new soke of the art."
____________________________________________________________

This is not really accurate. I'm actually smiling a little here. The art was not passed to Don Angier by Yoshida Kenji during some death bed vigil (What a great movie scene!). Thats way too melodramatic. The art was effectively passed to Don Angier when Yoshida Kenji ( the son of Kotaro and appointed successor) realized that he would never return to Japan. At that point he realized that for the art to survive he had to adopt Don Angier as a yoshi. He did this long before he was confined to bed. At this time he presented Don with the family mons and gave him the Japanese name Yoshida Kensaburo. Don Angier was overseas on military duty when Yoshida Kenji passed away from silicosis."

OUCH! Absolutely right, Toby! Hell, I can only presume that my melodramatic side just took control...
Point taken
Yamantaka

Martin H
28th July 2000, 14:45
Hello everyone and thanks for all the replies.

To Toby Threadgill:

The information I gave comes mainly from a interview with Master Oyama shortly before his death, and I fully accept that it might be (and is) a bit incorrect due to faulty translations, distortion of memories due to time and missconceptions, it is however what has been given to me and what I had to work with.
I should have added a "can anyone confirm this information?" to the original message :-)

Masutatsu Oyama was indeed given a Menkyo kaiden by Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, and although I have been informed that it was for "Daitoryu aiki bujutsu", it might have been for some other style (in which case I would be very interrested in knowing which style), as I have only seen pictures of it and dont read Japanese I cannot say for sure (Oyama was quite proud of it as it was the only proof he had that he had studied under the master). I belive that during his lifetime it resided on the walls in the Kyokushinkaikan Hombu, and probably still does.

As for the Yoshida practicing Yanagi ryu being unconfirmed, I meant that I had no real source to go on but hearsay only. Thankyou for confirming it.

BTW. I didnt intend to imply that Yoshida Sensei founded, or awarded a menkyo kaiden in "THE" Daito ryu aiki bujutsu, but rather a personal substyle of lesser fame.
If no such substyle existed, im obviously in the wrong.

Im also very interrested in your statement that high ranking Kyokushinkai masters have studied Daito ryu, could you give any names?

Best wishes
Martin Hultgren

Walker
28th July 2000, 17:33
Hey Toby,
Didn’t mean to imply that there was a big connection between Takamura ha SYR, Daito, and Yanagi just remarking on the interesting interconnections clustered around Sokaku Takeda - small world after all type thing....
Also Kotaro’s dates are listed as 1964 and 1966 (both from S.Pranin) anyone know which is correct?
Any word on the next Dallas event?

28th July 2000, 17:34
Ubaldo,

LOLOL. No ouch intended! I was smiling with you not at you. I read and appreciate your many posts here on E budo
____________________________________________________________

And Martin,

It is easty to understand why all the confusion exists. Sometimes I go crazy trying to keep it all stright myself.

Thanks for the inquiry. Thats what E budo is all about.

____________________________________________________________

And Doug,

I knew what you meant but I just wanted to be safe. Otherwise somebody somewhere will start claiming Shindo Yoshin ryu came from Daito ryu, and then claim through SYR to be the high mucky muck of another hitherto unknown ancient "aiki willow killer fu!"

lolol. You know what I mean :)

Concerning Kotaro's death there is confusion. I received an original photograph of Kotaro from Kondo with it dated 1966. In the picture Kotaro sure looks alive and kicking to me. Now the date written on the photo could be wrong of course but Kondo says 1966 and he was training with him. Stan thought it as 1964 but is now I believe amending that date to the 1966 supplied by Kondo.

The next open seminar here in Dallas will be around Halloween. Don is here this weekend BTW (I pick him up in a few hours). But this is a seminar open only to the SMU Martial Arts Club Saturday and it's instructors Sunday.

P.S. I keep waiting for David Maynard to respond with some more info on the changes to the Shindo Yoshin ryu curriculum. I want to make sure the info is absolutely correct before I post any of it publicly. Karl Garrison gave me some info that he remembered but he also suggested David Maynard for the most accurate and authorative explanation.

Toby

[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-28-2000 at 11:54 AM]

Brently Keen
30th July 2000, 03:54
I'm going to try this again, and keep trying every once in a while, so please pardon me if I seem repetetive. I've posted similar questions here before and on other board's.


Can anybody tell me who Kotaro Yoshida's father was? Like what was his name, where was he born and where did he die? What about Kotaro's grandfather?

I'm trying to find out if Kotaro Yoshida was of any relation to Okunojo Yoshida. Okunojo Yoshida was a senior student of kenjutsu master Toru Shirai, and he wrote numerous books on Tenshinden Itto-ryu and Tenshin Shirai-ryu heiho. He also was a student of a famous Kito-ryu jujutsu master. Okunojo Yoshida's writings were cited numerous times by Yoshinori Kono in his series of articles in Aikido Journal (Famous Swordsmen and Budoka of Japan).

Can anyone help me out here? Email me privately if you wish, thanks.

Brently Keen

Richard Elias
1st August 2000, 16:21
Brently,

Very little is known about Yoshida Kotaro. We don't know much of anything about his family before him. Kondo might know more, but thus far he's not sharing. It is known that his family came originally from Satsuma,(Kotaro later moved to Hokkaido) and someone from his family was involved in the rebellion (the losing side.) He is also believed to be related to the Yoshida that were a part of the 47 ronin,(a father and son I believe"?") they share the same mon. Kotaro did study Kito Ryu and Ono ha Itto Ryu, among others, both very popular styles of the day. How much of this ended up in Yanagi ryu and his relationship to Okunujo are unknown at this time, well at least by us anyway. If you do get any more information please share, it would be greatly appreciated.

Brently Keen
2nd August 2000, 23:15
Richard,

If I can find out anything, Don and the rest of you Yanagi-ryu guys will certainly be the first to know. I am going to ask Stanley Pranin if he can't perhaps ask Kondo sensei more about Kotaro Yoshida.

Regards,

Brently Keen

Kendoguy9
3rd August 2000, 18:56
hello all,

i have also had a few questions about this topic. what i found that was interesting is that Richard Kim, the karate sensei trained with Kotaro sensei. from what Kim has published he only learned some bojutsu and tessenjutsu from Kotaro sensei. it is possible that Oyama could have learned a limited portion of the ryu, and had some sort of certificate in that section. he has a picture in one of his small books of Kotaro sensei, and him standing behind him holding a tessen. what makes it interesting is that it looks like a formal portrait, not just a random photograph from a seminar or the like. Kim also states that Kotaro sensei killed a bear with his tessen! what would be interesting is to see how Kim's karate organization, and possibly Oyama's too, practices bojutsu. perhaps then someone like Angeir sensei, or Toby sensei could compare and contrast? anyone have contacts in either org?

gambatte!!!

8th August 2000, 21:07
Chris,

Information concerning Richard Kim's relationship to Yoshida Kotaro is so full of inaccuracies that no one knows exactly where to start. They definitely met and knew one another as his names appears in Kotaro's teaching ledgers with that of Mas Oyama. Richard Kim makes it seem as though they were very very close and that he trained extensively with Kotaro. However, sources close to Mas Oyama have said that it was actually Mas who was seriously trained by Kotaro and that Kim was just Mas's uke.

Kim also has publicly claimed to have been with Kotato when he died. The fact that Katsuyuki Kondo disputes this and that Riscard Kim has Kotaro's time of death wrong by many years sort of botch his credibility on this.

Now a really glaring problem for Richard Kim is that in the 1960's an article was featured in Black Belt Magazine where Kim claimed to be the inheritor of Daito Ryu. There is even a picture of Richard Kim with an evidently bogus densho. This really clobbers his credibility for good.

One thing for sure is that what Kim teaches is nothing like Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu. Since Yoshida Kotaro did nothing that remotely resembled karate what the heck did Kim learn of Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu and why is it not evident in his teaching? My own slant is that Daito ryu and Yanagi ryu were so difficult that he and Mas did not train long enough with Kotaro to genuinely learn much from him. This would explain why there is no evidence of Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu in their teachings.

There is also an obscure rumour that Richard Kim was in Japan during WW2 as a guest of the Japanese Govt. He evidently mentions this in some writings concerning his being at the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1943 or something.

Oop's! Big Oop's

Sheesh, If thats true it's a miracle he was not sent to the slammer for treason because he was an American citizen.

If anyone knows more I would be interested in listening?

BTW, I once asked Don Angier about the rumour that Kotaro killed a bear with an iron fan. He sort of giggled and said "Yeah, It was probably a cub tied to a tree or something"

Irreverant to the end!



[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 08-08-2000 at 03:24 PM]

Joseph Svinth
9th August 2000, 09:30
Japanese Americans (okay, Kim is Korean American, but back then hardly anyone in the US distinguished so closely) who were in Japan during WWII generally got their citizenship back following the Korean War. Examples of noted US budoka included in this generalization are Jim Yoshida (judo) and Rod Omoto (kendo). Those who did not generally *chose* to remain in Japan; examples here include sumotori Harley Kiichiro Ozaki (Toyonishiki). (Rikidozan was a stablemate, by the way.)

Active service in the Japanese military was considered by the government (we'll disregard the Tokyo Rose conviction here, as that was a kangaroo trial), but in general if the individual was drafted then the government assumed that the duty was not voluntary. Voluntary service was potentially an issue, but in general, even Japanese Americans who volunteered for service in the Imperial Navy's signals intercept operations were not persecuted. (The signals intercept officer on IJNS Yamato in 1945 was from Idaho, but of course he died. Meanwhile, the only surviving signals intercept officer that I know by name, Spokane's Welly Shibata, chose to stay in Japan after the war because by then he was married, had a couple kids, and a good job with an Osaka newspaper. Nevertheless, he was free to come to Seattle to visit friends and relatives during the Korean War, which was before such travel became commonplace.)

All of which is a long way of saying that it would not have been much of a problem for a Kibei or Nisei to regain US citizenship during the 1950s.

9th August 2000, 15:44
Joseph,

Thanks for the clarification. I had heard that an American citizen who traveled to Japan after hostilities started were subject to losing their citizenship....or worse! Obviously this situation is much more complicated than I was led to believe. Thanks

Toby

Tom Douglas
27th April 2001, 02:27
Yoshida Kenji's transmission of the Yoshida family martial arts to Don Angier is a most fascinating story, the most complete treatment of which I found in an Aikido Journal article by Soke Angier last year. One question that was not answered in much detail by either Soke Angier's article or Stanley Pranin's background material is: why did Yoshida Kenji come to the United States in the first place?

I understand that there may have been very personal reasons that Yoshida Kenji would never have communicated to Mr. Angier or anyone else, even if there had not been linguistic and cultural barriers. The Aikido Journal material seems to hint at tensions between Yoshida Kenji and his father, Yoshida Kotaro. I confess it's this kind of personal detail that brings historical characters alive for me, and that's really why I'm asking. However, I only want to know about what is credibly known, from letters or recollections of family friends or that kind of source.

In addition to being a highly-skilled martial artist, Yoshida Kotaro was a member of an old and respected samurai family, who cultivated high-level "right-wing" political connections through his association with the Genyosha and Kokubyukai. Yoshida Kenji was his son, the inheritor of the family fighting arts and school of strategy, in so many ways the person that a traditional samurai father would expect and demand carry on family tradition.

Was Yoshida Kenji running from that pressure of tradition? Did he disagree with his father's politics, enough so that he left his native country in an ominous time? If he did not fear his father or disagree with him in some substantive way, what would have driven Yoshida Kenji out of Japan? Would he have moved to the United States purely for fun and adventure? Would he have moved here to assess conditions in a potential enemy of Japan and report back to his father?

It's significant to me that both father and son survived World War 2 (the son not by many years), but nothing is reported of any postwar contact between them. That suggests personal strain between them, perhaps the motivation for Yoshida Kenji to have left Japan in the first place.

Any considered opinion and information would be much appreciated. Thank you.

Tom Douglas

27th April 2001, 16:01
Tom,

You stated:

"I understand that there may have been very personal reasons that Yoshida Kenji would never have communicated to Mr. Angier or anyone else, even if there had not been linguistic and cultural barriers"

You mean't Kotaro, right? Don Angier was provided erroneous information of Kotaro's death by a karate instructor who supposeably knew Kotaro. Later Don learned from Katsuyuki Kondo that Kotaro had not died when told, but survived until 1966. Had Don known this he would have tried to contact Kotaro directly. The outcome of such an effort is pure speculation.

____________________

and

"In addition to being a highly-skilled martial artist, Yoshida Kotaro was a member of an old and respected samurai family, who cultivated high-level "right-wing" political connections through his association with the Genyosha and Kokuryukai. Yoshida Kenji was his son, the inheritor of the family fighting arts and school of strategy, in so many ways the person that a traditional samurai father would expect and demand carry on family tradition."

Was Yoshida Kenji running from that pressure of tradition? Did he disagree with his father's politics, enough so that he left his native country in an ominous time?"

The answer to the above is yes.

______________________

A virtual underground railroad was run by the Japanese fishing fleets operating on the west coast prior to WW2. Yoshida Kenji fled Japan in fear of his life as he received information that his name was on hit list distributed by the Kokuryukai. He felt his father would not intercede in this as they were in heated disagreement over the political pursuits of Japan. He first fled to Costa Rica. There he made contact with a fishing fleet that helped him illegally immigrate by (it is believed) assuming the identity of a deceased Japanese immigrant. He was picked up and incarcerated at Camp Topaz in Utah after the beginning of hostilities.

I believe Joe Svinth and Neil Yamamoto have been researching internment camp files in an attempt to gather more information on Yoshida Kenji during his years at Camp Topaz.

Neil Yamamoto
27th April 2001, 18:07
Hi all,

Don just asked me if I had gotten anywhere on the Yoshida stuff.

Joe gave me a lot of lead ideas to work on but I keep running into dead ends. Do you know how hard it is to find a single Japanese man under an assumed alias, who kept to himself, out of a huge number of Japanese.

No joke guys, after I spend a day looking at photos and stuff, we do all look alike.

Joe and I have talked about going down to the stacks of all the camp newspapers on microfiche but have yet to have a full day to do this. This is a long term project and I don't know when it will bear any fruit.

Joseph Svinth
28th April 2001, 08:15
Two problems here. One is the mythology of the model minority. (Surely you don't mean to suggest that there was reason for the FBI to detain people in December 1941?) The other is the pseudonym, as without it, Yoshida can't be easily tracked.

But, as Yoshida himself mentioned the Topaz kendo club, a future project involves reading the Topaz newspapers on microfilm to see if somewhere there is a list of members. If so, then perhaps somebody remembers something. Or not: Sixty years is a long time to remember details about one older man in your kendo class who at the time was doing his best to hide in plain sight.

Scott Vogeley
28th April 2001, 18:26
Greetings,

As a student of Daito-ryu, I've also found the story of Yoshida Kenji quite interesting. Mr. Douglas's inquiries above raise further questions regarding the father, Yoshida Kotaro, and his family in Japan. Most of the research I am familiar with concerning Yoshida Kotaro centers on his connection with Daito-ryu. What has been discovered in Japan about his family art? Some specific questions are:

1. Are there any relatives of Yoshida Kotaro alive in Japan? Have these people been interviewed about their family art?

2. The rift between the father and son appears to be great. Were there any correspondences between them after Yoshida Kenji left Japan?

3. My teacher, Kondo Katsuyuki, was a student of Yoshida Kotaro; however, he does not recall Yoshida Kotaro ever mentioning a family art, Yanagi-ryu. Did the break between the father and son create such a sore spot with the father that it caused him to forsake his family art? (I realize this question is difficult to answer because Mr. Angier did not learn much about Yoshida Kenji's family background while his teacher was alive. Nonetheless, it is interesting to ask why the father embraced Daito-ryu to such an extent publicly, yet did not publicly reveal his own family art.)

3. Maybe there are people with whom Yoshida Kotaro discussed his family art. Yoshida Kotaro had other students such as Mr. Yoshimi Tomabechi, a senior in Daito-ryu. Has anyone interviewed Mr. Tomabechi or others about this subject?

4. What information has been discovered from Japan as a result of recent research by Stanley Pranin? (Or do we have to wait for the next issue of Aikido Journal?)

5. If the Yoshida family art came from Kyushu, perhaps there is some nexus between extant Satsuma based ryu and the weapons waza in Yanagi-ryu. Has any comparative research been done in this area?

6. Finally, I wonder what happened to the calligraphy, "Yanagi-ryu aiki-bugei?" Something of value to the family, like that calligraphy, probably would have been safeguarded. Has it been located?

Thanks in advance to any of you researchers who can shed some light on these questions.

Sincerely,

Scott Vogeley
vogeley@colorado.edu

James Williams
28th April 2001, 20:06
Scott,

Many of your questions are probably never going to be answered. Even though Kondo sensei was a student of Yoshida sensei it would have been absolutely improper for him to ask any personal questions of Yoshida. Don, Kondo, and Stan have tried to find out more information however it is extremely difficult. A personal family art would have been kept secret especially by someone like Yoshida Kotaro. These were very old school guys, Black Dragon Society etc. there is much that they would not have revealed even to close friends.

There was information that was destroyed that some of us, including Stan, are aware of however the circumstances are personal and not for the public. Fortunately some pictures etc. that Kenji had given Don were stored in Don's sister's attic for over 40 years. Don had forgotten about them until his sister called and asked if he still wanted the box of old photos of these Japanese people. Stan also is in possession of a copy of a book written by Yoshida Kotaro. Yoshida Kenji was unaware that his father was still alive and no contact was made.

Joseph Svinth
29th April 2001, 02:50
A thought. In the National Archives at College Park, Maryland, are literally hundreds of boxes of SCAP-era documents relating to the Amur River Society, kendo, and related topics. I would guess that most have English-language summaries attached, as many senior US Army intelligence officers wouldn't have read Japanese. Now, to my knowledge, no one has ever seriously gone through this material with an eye toward publishing MA-related articles or books. So, if you live in the DC/Maryland area and are serious about learning your early 20th century budo history, begin your search at http://www.nara.gov/nara/nail.html , using the keywords "kendo" and "judo," and then prepare to spend a few years with pencil and notebook in the stacks.

It would make a great dissertation topic.

Tom Douglas
29th April 2001, 04:25
Thanks to everyone for their contributions here, and for asking great additional questions!

Mr. Threadgill, I meant Yoshida Kenji (Kotaro's son, and Don Angier's teacher) when I said that he might have had very personal reasons for not telling Don Angier his specific motivation(s) for having left Japan. You very clearly described Yoshida Kenji's reasons for leaving Japan. They seem very valid and urgent to me . . .

Let me also say (off-topic), congratulations on the awarding of your Menkyo Kaiden. That is extremely impressive . . . and it sounds like the whole occasion was a great time for everyone.

Mr. Svinth: if I only had the time . . . but you know, I am curious about this issue . . . and I do have training for this kind of research. If I ever find anything that seems to even remotely bear on this topic, I'll run it up to you.

Frankly, I just asked the question originally because it is such a fascinating story to me.

Thanks again, everyone.

Tom Douglas

30th April 2001, 16:02
Hi Guys,

Scott Vogley posted:

"My teacher, Kondo Katsuyuki, was a student of Yoshida Kotaro; however, he does not recall Yoshida Kotaro ever mentioning a family art, Yanagi-ryu."

That statement is technically true but not the whole story.

I visited Katsuyuki Kondo with Don Angier in 1994, both at the dojo and at his home. During translated conversation there Don and Kondo discussed Yanagi ryu and Kotaro at length. Kondo told Don that he did see scrolls in Kotaros possession related to a martial tradition. He specifically mentioned a scroll containing tessen jutsu techniques. Don and Kondo both procceeded to demonstrate iron fan techniques to one another using two fans, one that belonged to Kotaro and one that belonged to Sokaku Takeda. Kondo said that these he learned from Kotaro. They were basically identical to those being demonstrated by Don as Yanagi ryu. Kondo mentioned that he never specifically heard Kotaro mention the name "Yanagi ryu" but he also stated that Yoshida was very proficient in a sophisticated weapons system of some sort. He certainly gave me the impression that he accepted Don as the inheritor of this system, whatever the name.

Another significant detail is that my Shindo Yoshin ryu sensei, Takamura Yukiyoshi's grandfather knew Yoshida Kotaro quite well. In documents he mentions Yoshida Kotaro's family art specifically but calls it Yoshida ha bujutsu instead of Yanagi ryu. I don't know why. He also called Daito ryu, Daido ryu.

Toby Threadgill

Joseph Svinth
1st May 2001, 06:49
You can read the article described at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_angier_0501.htm (It just got posted, otherwise I would have mentioned it sooner.)

kusanku
2nd May 2001, 23:50
Interesting stuff.

So here we are seeing, the real deal perhaps?An American Aiki jujitsu tradiition that Can be documented and is confirmed as being real by Kondo Katsuyuki?

The exception that proves the rule.

It can happen.

Nathan Scott
29th August 2002, 23:23
[Post deleted by user]

John Lovato
30th August 2002, 18:00
***********************

Richard Elias
30th August 2002, 18:08
Sorry, that was me as John, I hadn't realized that the computer was logged in under his name.
-----------------------------------------
Cool stuff Nathan, thanks for posting it.

I had never heard of Bobby Lowe until now.
I have seen some of this material in Oyama's book ("This is Karate" I think, not sure though) and some of it from other sources, websites. It fits in with much of what we do know.

Not sure about the Yanagi name reference. In the one I'd seen before Yanagi was not specifically mentioned, just Yoshida's "family art". Yanagi may have been added later after finding out about Don and whatnot. In most of the stuff I've found that Yoshida was known to have a family system but rarely spoke of it and never shared it with anyone, only Daito ryu.

Do you know if this book is available and where I could get a copy?

Dan Harden
31st August 2002, 01:35
If I'm not mistaken the reference to Kotaro in Mas's book is more of a one liner on the order of "to my greatest teacher" or "to one of the greatest Artists" or some such thing. I do not remember any refernce to either DR, Yanagi by name or even any reference to a family art at all. Which of course fits in well with typical DR (fight club) demeaner; "Don't talk about it" and "No show!"

I'll have to dig the book out to check.

Dan
back to work

Nathan Scott
2nd September 2002, 19:12
[Post deleted by user]

Matt Ashley
27th September 2002, 18:49
I found an article that paraphrases a quote by Kenji Yoshida. Does anybody know the EXACT form of the following quote in english and/or japanese?

"To paraphrase a quote from Yoshida Kenji Sensei, 'I do not look to authority for truth (reality), but look to truth (reality) for authority'."

Here's where I found it:

Martial Aiki - Past and Present
Written by James Williams
An excerpt from an article published in the Aikido JOURNAL
http://www.aikidofaq.com/essays/martial_aiki.html (http://)



thanks

Brently Keen
27th September 2002, 19:45
This quote is one of my favorites. It illustrates a powerful distinction (imo) that more people ought to make in all areas of life, but so often don't.

Brently Keen

Richard Elias
27th September 2002, 19:59
If you leave out the (reality) parts then the quote is accurate.
It was said to a young Don Angier during his time as a student with Yoshida Kenji.

Brently Keen
28th September 2002, 05:50
It's a good article too, definitely recommended reading.

Brently Keen

Richard Elias
23rd October 2002, 08:38
"However, its purpose was to give historical background to why Kotaro Yoshida, descendant from Satsuma Samurai ended up in Sendai"

Actually Yoshida Kotaro was known to travel around quite a bit and lived in several different locations throughout his life including Kiatmi, Ibaragi, Tokyo and others. He is also believe to have possibly traveled to China at some point. He may have originally gone to Sendai for education, it is where he attended the Tohoku Gakuin and graduated in 1906.

Dale Seago
5th January 2004, 17:58
Sorry to resurrect this old thread when everyone else seems to have gotten what they needed from it; however. . .

A character by the name of John Denora over at Budoseek is asserting that Yoshida Kenji died as a child in an internment camp in Arizona during World War II and had no connection with Angier sensei. He also states that photographs purporting to be of Yoshida Kenji in Angier's possession have been altered.

My overall assessment of Denora over the last couple of months of seeing his posts in other fora there is that he's a bit, um, eccentric. I'm trying to be nice and not say "nutball".

I'm trying to draw him out and get him to say who he thinks Angier sensei might have learned from if not Yoshida, but so far he doesn't seem to want to go there.

So -- I'd like to know what some of you who may be more knowledgeable in this area think.

This issue came up in a thread in Budoseek's Hapkido form exploring possible connections between Daito ryu and Hapkido, with the initial poster suggesting Yoshida Kotaro (rather than Takeda Sokaku) as the Daito ryu source.

The thread is here. (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4698&perpage=20&pagenumber=1)

Richard Elias
5th January 2004, 19:45
In regards to the photos of Yoshida Kenji that Mr. Denora claims to be fabrications.
I was a personal student of Don Angier’s and have personally handled the photos in question. They are in fact very real and produced at a time long before digital technology was available. They have since then been digitized and repaired of damage done over time, creases, folds, tears, and pen marks. But the originals still exist. I myself have scanned-in copies of some of the originals in my computer and the repaired versions. Don Angier has in his position several pictures of Yoshida Kenji from here in the states and in Japan, and from Kenji’s youth. He also has photos of Yoshida Kotaro… all originals mind you, not copies or digital creations. Additionally, I have also handled the original of the earlier posted photo, and it too is real.


I also posted the above statement on Budoseek.

Richard Elias
5th January 2004, 19:48
Oh and by the way... Thanks Dale :)

James Williams
5th January 2004, 19:58
Dale,

How are you doing? It has been a long time since we have had an opportunity to speak. I have stayed out of some of the threads in regards to John Denora on this forum even though I am very familiar with him, his claims, and his eccentricities, to be polite.

It appears at this point in his life John is at best a huckster and at worst a liar and perhaps not fully competent mentally. He has no idea what he is saying about Yoshida Kenji and has no facts to back up these false claims.

Regards,

James

James Williams
5th January 2004, 20:19
Dale,

How are you doing? It has been a long time since we have had an opportunity to speak. I have stayed out of some of the threads in regards to John Denora on this forum even though I am very familiar with him, his claims, and his eccentricities, to be polite.

It appears at this point in his life John is at best a huckster and at worst a liar and perhaps not fully competent mentally. He has no idea what he is saying about Yoshida Kenji and has no facts to back up these false claims.

Regards,

James

Dale Seago
5th January 2004, 20:58
Originally posted by Richard Elias
Oh and by the way... Thanks Dale :)

You're most welcome, Richard.

James, nice to see you here! I'm doing well. Was back to Japan a few weeks ago for Hatsumi's (72nd) birthday celebration and training; like Angier sensei he seems to just get spookier every year. :)

BTW, my post over on Budoseek! asking Denora about where Angier could have learned his art of not from Yoshida was this:



Originally posted by johenora


-----
Dear Mr. Dale Seago:
Your comments are well taken. What martial art do you practice?

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, for twenty years now -- I was one of the first 20 Americans to pass the 5th-dan test and be certified as an instructor, and I'm still very much a student of Hatsumi sensei.

I do have some background in Korean arts: the first art in which I ever received a black belt (December '69) was the form of Tae Kwon Do being taught to the Korean military at the time. In the mid-'70s, I also trained in Hapkido for a while under Han, Bong Soo in southern California. I've also spent a fair amount of time on special-operations missions in Korea (late '80s) physically "comparing notes" re: Bujinkan/Korean martial arts in my free time with South Korean special forces officers I was working with.

I have no direct experience in Daito ryu (more's the pity), but I have known Don Angier for. . .must be sixteen years now. I was introduced by a police-officer friend and student of mine who knew him. Back in those days Angier sensei would fly up to San Francisco and spend a weekend training with me and my group, literally for just the cost of the plane ticket to get him here. I've trained with him a fair number of times over the years, as have a number of my students: he still comes up here now and then for seminars, and we attend when we can. Many's the time I've tried my best to punch his head off or grab him and take him down, only to find myself airborne and laughing, because I had no sensory data to give me any clue as to how I got there.

I've never made any attempt to learn his art as such. But there are so many principles in his which are also used (but manifest somewhat differently) in Hatsumi sensei's budo that I find the difference in perspective and approach helps to illuminate the principles themselves. Indeed, I owe him a considerable debt for "giving me the eyes to see" a lot of what Hatsumi sensei was doing in my early years, at a time when Hatsumi wasn't really explaining things much.

Hence my interest in this thread. If Angier sensei did not learn from Kenji Yoshida as he claims, he certainly learned something from somewhere. . .

He still hasn't answered in his subsequent posts, nor addressed Richard's comments about the photos either.

BTW, I should mention that nowadays I also "have the eyes to see" what's going on with the more exotic-looking Systema stuff -- so I was happy to see a couple of my folks head down your way for a Systema seminar last year. They reported that they had a great time.

Jay Bell
5th January 2004, 23:13
Dale,

It was good to see your bunch attend the seminar in February. Good bunch of folks :)

Nathan Scott
26th February 2004, 00:07
[Post deleted by user]

glad2bhere
11th March 2004, 16:01
Dear Nathan, James et al:

Just a brief apology on behalf of some of the people who contributed to the discussion on BUDO-SEEK. Its not all that often that Hapkido people have a chance to compare notes with major players in our cousin arts in Japan. For me, personally, I thought that more could have been made of the opportunity and felt a bit stymied by Johns' take on things. He apparently has some strong feelings about his position but it seemed that those strong feelings repeatedly hampered expanding the discussion and promoting a comfortable dialogue. Sorta reminded me of the exchanges with the Italian DRAJJ contingent after Sensei Kondo took charge a couple of years back. At any rate I thought I would mention that perhaps more could have been made of the dialogue and that I for one look forward to the next opportunity. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dan Harden
11th March 2004, 16:54
Hi Bruce
I think that part of the problem is that you mention Denora in the same sentence as DRAJJ.
He has nothing and never did have anything, to do with the art. Therefore having ANY "discussion" is moot. He has virtually nothing to say.
It is the equivalent of using him for source material on Yanagi or Yoshin ryu. He always was and remains- a steadfast source of disinformation to this day.
Dates wrong
Teachers wrong
Affiliations wrong
And conspiracy theories abound as well allegations of misconduct to all parties that disagree with him.

As I was one of the first (along with Dave Maynard)- to openly challenge this Denora, Lewis, and Lovret connection back in Aikido Journal printed version days before most people here knew about them- I say do not give them a voice.

Mr. Denora has no voice in any debate or discussion regarding DRAJJ or Yanagi ryu.

That can be said in a few well worded sentences, and then let his strange created histories and stories fail on their own.
I openly challenged Lewis's claims in front of some two hundred people with Stan Pranin sitting next to me and Kondo across the room and that guy's stories were taken apart.
In short he is nobody in relation to these arts. Thankfully, he has not impacted them in any way and with the onset of the internet both he and Fred Lovret's bought DRAJJ Mokuroku and strange alleged associations to TSKSR are now known and their fraud is a miserable failure.
We would do well to challenge the claims where they appear and then let it be.
While I appreciate the good humor that everyone has with Denoras writings-it is similar to poking fun and enjoying the ravings of a mentally challenged person.


cheers
Dan

Richard Elias
11th March 2004, 19:00
Ditto.

Richard Elias
11th March 2004, 19:18
Ditto.

glad2bhere
11th March 2004, 20:15
Dear Dan:

I know your post was well-intentioned, but I have to tell ya, I don't think I am EVER going to be able to follow the various Yanagi-ryu and DRAJJ ins-and-outs. I flatter myself that I am pretty much as intelligent as the next guy (more or less) but sometimes I just get completely mind-boggled trying to follow some of these discussions.

If I followed what you were saying, I can then conclude that Denora and "Lewis" (don't know him) and Loveret while not related by tradition are essentially cut from the same cloth. I remember Loveret from the magazine he published quite a while back and the two books he wrote. If I remember he represented himself as "Yanagi-ryu" after the fashion of Sensei Angier except that Sensei Angier is a legitimate inheritor while Loveret has never demonstrated such a transmission. I recall a John Clodig, a lawyer from California, who was also teaching what I remember as Yanagi-ryu but remember little about him. Wasn't there also some guy in Mass or Conn who published Yanagi-ryu tapes? I know that there was a guy here in the Chicago area (Cicero?) who was teaching an aiki art and did have some connection formerly with Loveret but I am not sure if he is still affiliated. And I haven't even gotten to DRAJJ differences what with Brently Keene in California, Howard Popkin in Long Island and Gawd knows how many disparate entities in between. I think you guys need to put out score cards so out-siders can keep track of the players! Too bad there isn't some central agency that can give the relative standings of these folks so we know whos' who, yes? :D

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Cady Goldfield
11th March 2004, 21:11
Bruce,
I gotta wonder why you're so fascinated by the subject. Are you studying Daito-ryu or Yanagi-ryu now, or considering it?

glad2bhere
11th March 2004, 23:12
Dear Cady:

There are a FEW points and I will try to keep this concise.

1.) There is some argument that can be made for relating Hapkido traditions to Aiki-jutsu traditions. What that relationship is and was or will be I don't know, but these families are related in some way. I just choose to believe that what happens in one part of the family isn't necessarily divorced from another part.

2.) People deal with different conflicts in different ways. We in the Hapkido community have our own messes. But if we can learn by watching how others deal with similar conflicts, or share some of our experiences maybe it can be of a help.

3.) Sometimes in some of this stuff there is the odd comment about relating something going on within the dialogue to events or activities outside of the dialogue. For instance, both Hwang Kee and Ueyshiba are reported to have studied something in Manchuria. If a discussion in one area turns up the light somewhere else I would like to be there. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dan Harden
12th March 2004, 02:54
Bruce writes
Dear Dan:
I know your post was well-intentioned, but I have to tell ya, I don't think I am EVER going to be able to follow the various Yanagi-ryu and DRAJJ ins-and-outs. I flatter myself that I am pretty much as intelligent as the next guy (more or less) but sometimes I just get completely mind-boggled trying to follow some of these discussions.

Dan Writes
It really is all so simple bud
DR, Yanagi, Yoshin are like Koryu.
V-E-R-Y small groups who all know each other. If you have trained or are training in it- You are known.
The only thing that has made it complicated are the FAB THREE from Daito ryu; Denora, Lovret and Lewis. If you remove their bizarre antics- it is traceable and simple.

Bruce writes
If I followed what you were saying, I can then conclude that Denora and "Lewis" (don't know him) and Loveret while not related by tradition are essentially cut from the same cloth. I remember Loveret from the magazine he published quite a while back and the two books he wrote. If I remember he represented himself as "Yanagi-ryu" after the fashion of Sensei Angier except that Sensei Angier is a legitimate inheritor while Loveret has never demonstrated such a transmission.

Dan writes
Yes cut from the same cloth and no - The fab three you named were all using the DAITO RYU name in the late eighties and early nineties-not Yanagi.
And over time we let the word get out.
From no-dan to 7 th dan to 6th dan to no-dan to 10th Dan- There are so many truly bizzare and comical stories about these guys that it would take pages upon pages to go through it all. That’s why I commented that we should be discluding them altogether. Having talked with and or read some of their material and even having been threatened with arrest or death threats - I feel they have mental problems. If I revealed some of their writings it would certainly be considered comical or simply sad.

Snip Clodig stuff................

Bruce writes
Wasn't there also some guy in Mass or Conn who published Yanagi-ryu tapes?

Dan writes
Yes- Tony Annesie But it is best to let the Yanagi guys answer that if they choose. That gets complicated.


snip unrleated stuff...........

Bruce writes
I think you guys need to put out score cards so out-siders can keep track of the players! Too bad there isn't some central agency that can give the relative standings of these folks so we know whos' who, yes?

Dan writes
No bud. It just isn’t complicated when you remove the nonsense from unrelated parties.

First up-Denora is just so much background noise. Dismiss him altogether. He is virtually meaningless to the art or arts in general.

Second up- even if you include the Seisinkai debate (that is at least clear to read) as it is really a debate between people of serious training history.

So, remove that….and it’s simple.
There is only:
The Kodokai
Under Kiyama Hayawo Shihan
Which- as a school- has been teaching here the longest
VERY conservative, tight knit group.

Roppokai
Under Okamoto

Mainline
Under Kondo

And Takumakai
study groups


Yanagi ryu
Don Angier and his students
They all know each other

Yoshin ryu
Takamura (deceased) and his students
They all know each other

It is fairly easy

So, remove the rhetoric and there is no debate.
Everyone just trains. Please realize you are talking about something like 50-70 people and thats about it.

Just don’t buy into the nonsense
Cheers
Dan

glad2bhere
12th March 2004, 03:42
Dear Dan:

Hey! I like that!

Neat, simple and to the point! Now I am assuming that there are probably still grumblings in and among members of each select group or maybe finger-pointing between, say, this version of DRAJJ and that. But I should think, as you say, the groups would all be small and know each other. Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

David Maynard
13th March 2004, 06:36
Hello

Mr Harden posted this:

"As I was one of the first (along with Dave Maynard)- to openly challenge this Denora, Lewis, and Lovret connection back in Aikido Journal printed version days before most people here knew about them- I say do not give them a voice."

Interesting,

Dan, have we met? Before my move across the pond I lived in Danbury, Connecticut. Perhaps we crossed paths back in my dojo rat days. And I must agree with your assessment of the "3 Amigo's" I never met Graham Lewis in person although we did have an entertaining phone conversation that ended rather abruptly when the definition of fraud was brought up as a topic. However, I have met Denora and Lovret in person, and what an amazing show they put on back in the 80's. Takamura Sensei almost burst his britches once laughing at Lovret during a demonstration in San Diego. It was a spectacle beyond imagination! replete with his fake Japanese accent in front of a mostly Japanese crowd. My deary me...

I read Denora's posts concerning Hapkido & Daito ryu over on Budoseek in jiiked stupification. That man must be on some good hallucinogens. I was about to post a terse response when my TSYR cohort Toby Threadgill chimed in and cut Denora's legs from underneath his ponderous pie trap. Simply amazing that man. Does anyone know what medication he's taking?

So Mr Sims, I'm with Mr Harden. Ignore the rantings of these, the Daito ryu lunatic fringe. They are white noise in their own sea of silliness.

I'm new to these internet budo discussion boards and I must say Toby was pretty accurate in his assessment to me. So far it reminds me of cross between PBS , The Twilight Zone and the Beverly Hillbillies. Crikey fun for sure, but in an almost embarrassing manner.

Dan Harden
13th March 2004, 13:59
Hi Dave

No we haven't had the pleasure of each others company. The full quote of what I wrote in the above is the following......

As I was one of the first (along with Dave Maynard)- to openly challenge this Denora, Lewis, and Lovret connection back in Aikido Journal printed version days before most people here knew about them- I say do not give them a voice.

The single letter that appeared in Aikido Journal was mine. It outlined the antics; first dan to 7 th dan to 6th dan to no dan...in a couple of weeks time as well as the mentioning of those adds they used to do. It caused Stanley some trouble and he decided to do an editorial.
Right after that the this guy writes in out of the blue (Who would that be? Why, it would be you!..heh heh) oultining the same "view" of the Fab three.

This was-unfortunately- my single encounter with you and your assessment of things. It was spot on then-it is spot on now.
Gee-what a surprise ;)
I've my own stories of truly bizzare communications; death threats and arrest threats after exposing them. Oddly enough, when I have met them-it is a different story altogether.

Anyway, my position holds that they are not of any fringe (as you say)
They simply do not exist in it and are of no consequence to the art in anyway.

As for E-budo and other media..
Heres my thoughts Dave.
Stanley and I talked for a while about what and IF I should write in to address these guys. What I used to finally convince him to let me write that into Aikido Journal was Edmund Burke. As Burke wrote "all that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
While E-budo and all this stuff can be truly bizzarre-don't forget that while you see people talking tripe-it has done more to expose frauds and give out accurate information to many honest and interested people in these arts then- any other medium we have had .
Another quote of mine is "To whom much is given-much is required."
I believe there is a way to disseminate and help guide without sacrificing personal or profesional integrity.

Anyway glad you wrote in then and now. Hope to see you some where.

Cheers
Dan
P.S.
Your line...cross between PBS , The Twilight Zone and the Beverly Hillbillies."
I fell over laughing. I'm stealing that -Its mine I tell ya..back off :D

Andrew
14th March 2004, 04:11
What are you guys talking about? "Graham Lewis" is awesome. No one goes through the ranks like that guy. I’m sure in a few years he will be the soul inheritor of main line Diato Ryu (or at least he may publish some where that he is).

All of my sarcasm aside, I’m with Dan on this one. I met Graham Lewis years back (with Dan) and aside of having achieved the reading level of a 4th grader (I have read some of the letters he sent out in retaliation to being exposed as a fraud) I don’t think he has achieved to much else. Much less any claims he may have made to know anything concerning Diato Ryu.

So just sit back and take what he says for what it is… Comedy.

glad2bhere
14th March 2004, 13:48
Just a side question.....

Apart from the individual organizations knowing whos is who regarding rank and standing, is there some general clearinghouse for practitioners. By this I mean that if somebody popped-up stating that they were, say, Kodokai, members of that organization would know, right? But what would be the drill if someone simply turned-up stating that they taught DRAJJ without specifying a particular affiliation? I am also curious what the take would be on a person who has studied DRAJJ and produced some new lineage, perhaps after the fashion of Doshin So and the Shorinji Kempo folks? In similar fashion, someone like Arnesi (sp?) in Mass. Is he considered Yanagi-ryu under Sensei Angier or something else? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dan Harden
14th March 2004, 14:26
Hey back at ya bud
For Yanagi, Yoshin or Daito ryu-Refer to what I said above. If you have been or are currently involved -you are known by those who have been or are currently involved. Its that simple. Its like Koryu.
You are talking about what; a couple of dozen folks?

For anyone to have trained in it-and then set off to do their own thing? There are quite a few. DR is quite deep and few stay. It was ALWAYS that way and always will be.
Ellis postulated on this in one of his excellent books-ya really should get both his books by the way-He contends that DR is so deep that many/most do not stay to learn all of the intricate and exhaustive syllabus-they at some point catch an internal vision and head off- hense the many offshoots from DR. I am one who agrees with him.
As for what you or I or anyone else thinks of the arts or artists that have done that? Who can judge? Lots of people offer opinions-others would not give you a nickel for the value of those same opinions! So go do em and decide for yourself.

Cheers
Dan

glad2bhere
14th March 2004, 16:54
Dear Dan:

Much thanks. BTW: Is Yoshida Kotaro the elderly sword master with the wispy moustache and beard who passed away some time back? I'm trying to remember if he is the same person who was sword advisor to Mifune when Kurasawa filmed SEVEN SAMURAI.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Andrew
14th March 2004, 17:30
Bruce,
Dont know if he helped with the 7 Samurai, but Mifunes teacher was Sugino Yoshio ,kenjutsu (TSKSR).
Hope that helps.

Dan Harden
14th March 2004, 17:34
Andy ya beat me to it

Kotaro Yoshida was the father of Yoshida Kenji; who taught Don Angier
He was also the guy who introduced Ueshiba to Takeda (he had studied Daito ryu for years with Horikawa Taiso)
He is also the guy who taught tessen to Kondo.
It is assummed he was very well versed in a "Yanagi"ryu. I think "the boys" keep trying to trace that connection down and tighten it up through a paperwork trail and have gotten frustrated.

The wispy bearded guy who taught Mifune sword?
That is indeed Sugino from TSKSR.
Sugino? He practiced up until his mid nineties. A colorful character who was much admired in Budo circles. He was a judoka then did some Aikido. He made some interesting observations of Takeda when he saw him show up uninvited to a Budo demo at the Budokan. He said Takeda chastized the guys for not practicing real Budo and he took on a bunch of large Judoka and pinned them all while being insulting of their efforts.
He ackowledged that
a. It was was of the finest displays of martal prowess he had ever seen
and
b. It was the rudest thing he had ever seen a Budoka do.
He then went to study with Ueshiba...

Anyway. It was published as an interview with Stanley Pranin.
Buy his books two books
One on Aikido masters
One on Daito ryu masters.
then read
Don Draegers three books on Japanese arts
Diane and Meik Skoss's three bookson Koryu
Ellis Amdur's two books on the Japanese arts
All of the above should be required reading for Budoka to get a good basic "whos who and whats what" in the Japanese arts.
Even with the occasional error and the editorial opinion it is good basic education and really a delightful read. Alot of it is truly funny while being thought provoking and informative.

Together they have interviews with many differrent people which lets the reader draw their own conclusions.
Stan is trained in how to investigate and ask questions.
The Skosses offered fellow koryu people a chance to speak their own minds.
Ellis is pithy, abrupt, Direct and then waxes philosophically. He also has a nack for drawing the reader in -even to topics one would normally not be interested in.
Great reads all.......

cheers
Dan

glad2bhere
14th March 2004, 17:50
Many thanks to you both for the help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Richard Elias
14th March 2004, 18:48
Just a couple things about Yoshida Kotaro…

He began studying Daito ryu with Takeda just before he introduced Ueshiba to him (maybe even in the same year) and a year later than Horikawa Kodo, Kodo was senior to them both. He didn’t actually study with Horikawa Taiso, though Kodo (his son) and Yoshida were friends and in all likelihood trained together on occasion. Horikawa Kodo had begun learning Daito ryu with his father prior to meeting Takeda.

Yoshida was Kondo Katsuyuki’s second Daito ryu teacher. Just before he passed away Kondo’s first teacher, Hosono Tsunejiro, told him he should study with Yoshida. Hosono had been a student of Yoshida and Takeda.

Yoshida was said to have been quite a talented and famous martial artist and had supposedly achieved high level in several arts. Yanagi ryu was his family’s system and while it had it’s own extensive curriculum in all probability aspects of Daito ryu were incorporated in.

We have tried through several different resources to find out more about Yoshida and his family, but due to his involvement in several right-wing groups during the war and after we have run into many “roadblocks”. Suffice it to say it has been suggested that we probably shouldn’t be asking.

Oh, and he did have a wispy beard and kinda looked like Sugino now that you mention it.

Dan Harden
14th March 2004, 19:20
Hey Rich

By the way I did send that guy your way

A couple of disjointed historical factoids-really for discussion purposes.

I have it that Kondo basicially just learned tessen from Yoshida-this from his own lips-and that he only studied with him for 2 years. In fact he even down played his training with him in association to any sort of deep Daito ryu study.
He is very straight up and direct about his training and he said it was tessen and wrist work only. I think he said he got a type of Inka but again I specifically remember him downplaying that. The boys can ask him this year if they are so inclined.

History


Sagawa states that his dad studied with Takeda and recieved the teaching chop in 1914-he goes on to say that Yoshida trained along with his dad.
Mrs Horikawa tells Stan that Taiso met Takeda in 1913 and began training-and that Yoshida was present to introduce Ueshiba in the early winter (feb I think) of 1915

In fact If I am not mistaken Taiso taught Kodo kind of illegally behind Takedas back and only then did Takeda sort of say "OK teach the kid and then I'll teach him."
So that does indeed place Yoshida as senior to Kodo-and _perhaps_ senior to Taiso.
I can't even get to my books -anyone care to chime in?

cheers
Dan

Richard Elias
14th March 2004, 20:15
Yeah, 2 years is not much. From what he stated in his interview Kondo didn’t just learn tessen, he said they (he and Tomabechi Yoshimi) paid by technique and mentions learning kotegaeshi. He told Don that some of the tessen Yoshida did and what he learned in Daito ryu was different. That was how he recognized Yoshida’s teachings in what Don was doing. He handed Don the tessen he had gotten from Yoshida to practice with and Don began doing movements with it. Kondo told Don that those were the same things that Yoshida would do, but that they were not part of Daito ryu.

Sagawa’s father got the license in ’14 but Yoshida hadn’t been training with him. He stated in his interview that Yoshida and Ueshiba both started after his father. Horikawa Taiso started ’13, and Kodo in ’14. And Taiso was teaching Kodo on the side, but eventually got Takeda’s ok on it. Kodo actually studied with his father for 7 years before becoming a direct student of Takeda, he only studied with Takeda for 3 years.

It is my understanding from the interviews and talking with Stan that Yoshida didn’t start with Takeda until ’14… or at least he doesn’t show up in any of the ledgers before that. That’s not to say these guys didn’t all train together at different times… they were all already experienced martial artists and it seems that Hokkaido, Yubestu and Engaru in particular, were quite the hotbed for Daito ryu in those days.

glad2bhere
15th March 2004, 00:59
Dear Richard:

Speaking of Right-wing societies, there seem to be infrequent but repeated suggestions of a relationship between some JMA practitioners and the AMUR RIVER SOCIETY aka BLACK DRAGON SOCIETY. Some of these aspersions reach Ueyshiba and Doshin So. Have you found anything to this? I was also recently shocked by a TV program on the Japanese C-B program in Manchuria. Its seems like people report being in Manchuria during the war and the duty seems often characterized as hum-drum/ nothing special. Now I wonder if there is a resource that sheds a bit more light on this portion of the Second WW. I remember how stunned I was to find out the incredible battles that were fought in Manchuria during the Russo-Japanese War. Thoughts?

Best ishes,

Bruce

Richard Elias
15th March 2004, 02:32
I have found there to be a great deal of connections between the JMA community and various organizations during the war... If you think about it it's really a part of their history, it's always been that way. Yoshida was involved in the groups you mentioned and others, many martial artists back then were... you'd be suprised. And they were active in several different countries.

You could say that some of these groups had offspring that are active to this day.

Joseph Svinth
15th March 2004, 03:02
Bruce --

Unit 731 is what you're looking for in the books and websites.

Also read up on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in August 1945. For my money, this, rather than the atomic bombs, is what made the Japanese beg for surrender. Uncle Joe rolled up the entire Kwantung Army in less than a week, so, logically the alternative to surrendering to the Americans in September was being overrun by the Soviets by December.

glad2bhere
15th March 2004, 13:33
Dear Joe and Richard:

I think you are both hitting the point that I wanted to make, and I would take it a step farther.

In Korean traditions Hwang Kee (Tang Soo Do) is said to have been posted to the "railroad" in Manchuria and trained in Chinese arts while there. In like manner other personalities are said to have had equivalent experiences. What is missing for me is the actual nature of the Manchurian campaigns. I don't think folks went to Manchuria and just sat around studying MA all day. Joes' reference to Unit 731 shows that there were some pretty serious things happening in that theatre but there is not much in the way of information. Maybe someone needs to write a book and call it "Japanese Martial Arts -- The Manchurian Years". Whatcha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

chrismoses
15th March 2004, 16:01
Much of what was done by the Japanese in Manchuria is an embarrasment to modern Japanese (it was also the stuff of war crime convictions). The problem with any such effort is that it digs into a period of time that most Japanese are rather squishy about. Even if some signifigant budo was going on, it is tainted by the terrible acts surrounding the Chinese occupation. Those who know probably won't talk, and those inquiring will probably be given the cold shoulder. Let's just say that tatami wasn't the tameshigiri material of choice for many "Budo" practitioners during the occupation. They certainly weren't teaching the local populace and Japan's national arrogance would most likely have made it impossible to conceive of learning from a local (Chinese) teacher.

glad2bhere
15th March 2004, 16:41
Thanks, Christian:

I know what you mean. The Koreans are VERY touchy about the Japanese Occupation to a great degree because of all the collaboration that went on. UNDER THE BLACK UMBRELLA was a banned book in Korea for many years and there are an embarrassing number of high political officials who have retained their influential positions despite their engagement with the Japanese during the war. What I was thinking of was not so much working to dish dirt, but rather to locate resources that would speak to the Manchurian experience as it might have impacted JMA (or KMA). For instance, I remember that there was some anecdotal evidence about Military sword (Toyama-ryu) being practiced in Manchuria and Nakamura may have actually taught there for a while. Ueyshiba is rumored (off and on) to have dabbled in Chinese arts there. All the same there doesn't seem to be much to draw on to get a real feel for what the atmosphere may have been like. By way of example, I am currently laboring through ORIGINS OF THE BOXER REBELLION by Esherick (ISBN 0 520 06459 3). Though a bit ponderous, the manner in which the author systematically examines each social and economic factor winds up giving me a great picture of what was going on in the second half of the 19th century. You could probably boil the entire book into a single chapter except that the research is so painfully thorough. I think its a great read. Now I wouldn't mind finding something comparable regarding the Manchurian experience. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joseph Svinth
16th March 2004, 03:42
Although it had just 701 miles of track, the South Manchuria Railway was an enormous corporation, and as such, a decent colonial analogy would be the British East India Company.

The SMR records are available in microfilm all over the US, but of course you would need to read bureaucratic prewar Japanese to use them. Therefore, I'd recommend starting instead with one of the academic texts, such as this: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MATMAK.html

or

Life along the South Manchurian Railway : the memoirs of It¯o Takeo / translated with an introduction by Joshua A. Fogel
Published Armonk, N.Y. : M.E. Sharpe, c1988 . Prof. Fogel is at UC Santa Barbara, and has written extensively on travel in pre-WWII Asia. See http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/fogel/sjs/fogel.html

or the Stanford East Asia Library collection, limned at

http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/asrg/japan_1.htm

Also look at railfan sites, such as http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/steam/trains/nkorea04.htm .

There is a surprising amount in English, though, starting with EJ Harrison's "Peace or War East of Baikal," and then culminating in the propaganda brochures published by the government. For some background on these brochures, see http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr15/f22_nak.html .

***

The Soviet campaign in Manchuria in 1945 is described at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/RMF.htm .

For the 1938/1939 war, see http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Russo.htm . For more detail, note that Alvin Coox wrote a book that tells the Japanese side; it's called Nomohon. In Russian, look for material on Khalkin-Gol. A fellow at Indiana did his master's on the battles, but I doubt he'd worry much about some obscure Korean railwayman. http://www.indiana.edu/~ceus/ma%20degrees%20in%20ceus2.htm

chrismoses
16th March 2004, 04:52
Joe, let me state for the record that you are in fact THE MAN. Who needs Britanica...

glad2bhere
16th March 2004, 13:44
Dear Joe:

What a great start!! Many thanks. I'll let you know which of these leads pans out the best for me. Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joseph Svinth
17th March 2004, 03:13
The only texts there that I have read are Harrison's book (1910) and the Global Security article. Harrison's book is useful mostly for the maps and photos, which are really nice graphics. The Global Security article is very good, but for obvious reasons, it doesn't devote itself much to individual Korean railwaymen don't get mentioned, if you know what I mean. Nonetheless, the bibliographies always lead outward.

Don't forget to check National Archives and Library of Congress. For instance, there is this newsreel at NARA.

ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCES IN SIBERIA, 1918-1919, 1936
Creator: Department of Defense. Department of the Army. Office of the Chief Signal Officer. (09/18/1947 - 02/28/1964) ( Most Recent)

Type of Archival Materials:
Moving Images
Level of Description:
Item from Record Group 111: Records of the Office of the Chief Signal Officer, 1860 - 1982

Location: Motion Picture, Sound, and Video Records LICON, Special Media Archives Services Division (NWCS-M), National Archives at College Park, 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, MD 20740-6001 PHONE: 301-837-3540, FAX: 301-837-3620, EMAIL: mopix@nara.gov
Other Titles: Historical Film, No. 1161

Production Date: 1936

Part of: Series: Historical Films, ca. 1914 - ca. 1936

Scope & Content Note:
Reel 1 has panoramic views of Vladivostok. Ger. POW's unload the transport Sherman, refugees congregate in the railway station, U.S. troops stand inspection, 31st Inf. officers pose, and Japanese troops guard the station. Shows trucks and autos. Reel 2, U.S. troops march and stand inspection, machine guns are readied and fired, an airplane flies overhead, Col. Robinson and aides pose in Spasskoe, medics pose at a Khabarovsk hospital, and Japanese troops load war materiel on flatcars in Khabarovsk. Shows railway supplies in Ogalnia, Col. Styer, the Amur and Ussuri Rivers, and a Japanese depot. Reel 3 shows dock facilities at Red River Station on the Ussuri; U.S. and allied troops; civilians; sentries guarding a bridge over the Amur; a funeral procession; Styer posing with Japanese Gen. Oi; Ger. POW's exercising at Red River Station; Cols. Murrow and Robinson on a train; a U.S. guard mount; and Russ. troops. Reel 4, Japanese troops guard a U.S. train, crew members pose, Japanese Gen. Kayizuka visits Styer, Ataman Kalmikoff's Cossacks drill, U.S. troops put on a rodeo, Cossacks pose, and Morrow poses in his quarters. Reel 5, officers pose aboard the Brit. cruiser Suffolk, sailors row to the cruiser Brooklyn, Brit. Gen. Knox poses with aides, Brit. troops march thru Vladivostok, and Graves poses with aides Eichelberger and Offutt. Shows hospital cars on a siding. Reel 6 shows ships in Vladivostok, Japanese crewmen, docks, and Russ. army maneuvers. The transport Warren cuts a path thru ice and workmen board a tug. Reel 7, Czech's guard and feed Bolshevik's on a train in Pogranichnaya, Manchuria. Shows an A.R.C. train near Nekolsk, Siberia, trucks on railway cars, wrecked cars in Harbi Manchuria, the Buchadeu hospital, and a train near Lake Baikal. Refugees walk along the Siberian railroad, Japanese and Chinese troops stand inspection, Russ. and Chinese troops guard the Harbin station, Japanese troops practice bayonet drills, and Czech's unload a train. Reel 8 shows office.....

Dan Harden
18th March 2004, 00:43
Joe
That was great-research supreme. I echo Chris and Bruce and most everyone else here. When it comes to research you're the man
Cheers
Bud
Dan

Dan Harden
18th March 2004, 00:47
Tony
I finally got to crack the book out again. I found the same information. What I found facinating again was that Yoshida taught some wrist moves as well as the tessan to Kondo as stated.
Play that against Kondo telling Don that he recognized theteesan uses and the wrist use. It makes ya wonder where Yanagi and Daito ryu converged or split and in which man or in both..hhmmm

cheers
Dan

Nathan Scott
17th November 2009, 22:46
[Post deleted by user]

Nathan Scott
19th November 2009, 21:00
[Post deleted by user]

Richard Elias
1st December 2009, 22:40
It may be notable that up until Takuma Hisa received menkyo kaiden the kyoju dairi certification was the highest available in Daito ryu, menkyo kaiden did not exist. I believe that Yoshida was not the only kyoju dairi licensed teacher that issued ranks and licenses in Daito ryu independent of Takeda or the main line school.

David
17th July 2017, 15:36
Just a friendly update in case anyone else happens across this old thread (which i have learned a lot from), Don Angier Soke of Shidareyanagiryu has passed away and passed the art to his grandson Jeremy who is the current Soke

Cady Goldfield
17th July 2017, 22:04
Yes, Angier passed away in 2014. after passing his art to Jeremy Breazeale, adoptive grandson.

Ellis Amdur
18th July 2017, 03:29
To revisit an old topic, Yoshida Kotaro did not train in a hidden family art - in fact, he trained in Shingetsu Musō Yanagi-ryū (in addition, of course, to Daito-ryu), a school still extant in Japan. His family in Japan still have documents that detail this.

Ellis Amdur
20th July 2017, 01:02
I need to do a little fine tuning on the last post - Toby Threadgill has refreshed my memory of a previous conversation. In 1994, he and Don Angier contacted Yoshida Kotaro's surviving son. He knew nothing about martial arts himself, but read from a diary of Yoshida's which mentioned him training in "Muso Yanagi ryu jujutsu, Yoshin ryu hibukijutsu and Daito ryu aikijujutsu. " It is a reasonable guess that this refers to Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu, as there are some similarities in the way they use weaponry, the mutual use of a long-tsuka sword and other characteristics. However, there are so many Yoshin-ryu offshoots (Yanagi-ryu being yet another one of them) that it's also possible that this was another faction. By the way, the Yoshin ryu hibukijutsu refers to 'hidden weaponry' and the use of the character 陰 for 'yo' is quite fitting in this regard, as that is the Japanese reading of 'yin.'

At any rate, barring that diary being published or read in detail (and it was written in archaic Japanese), it's best to take Yoshida at his word and simply refer to that other study as Muso Yanagi-ryu jujutsu.

Best
Ellis Amdur

MrIggy
3rd September 2017, 12:23
To revisit an old topic, Yoshida Kotaro did not train in a hidden family art - in fact, he trained in Shingetsu Musō Yanagi-ryū (in addition, of course, to Daito-ryu), a school still extant in Japan. His family in Japan still have documents that detail this.

Is there any information on him teaching in the Dai Nippon Butokukai?

Ellis Amdur
4th September 2017, 17:50
Nope. I am not aware of any Daito-ryu instructor ever associated with the DNB. Remember, though, it was an umbrella organization, with both an 'institute' in Kyoto, and most martial arts being enrolled/associated through their involvement with the education system, the military or other government connected organizations. DR was not associated in that way, until aikibudo started its association through the involvement of Hirai Minoru. By the way, I've recently read that, contrary to what Hirai indicated, "aikido" was NOT an umbrella term for all koryu jujutsu, it was a suggested revision of "aikibudo," probably to make it 'modern,' fitting in with judo, kendo, etc.

MrIggy
4th September 2017, 23:38
Nope. I am not aware of any Daito-ryu instructor ever associated with the DNB. Remember, though, it was an umbrella organization, with both an 'institute' in Kyoto, and most martial arts being enrolled/associated through their involvement with the education system, the military or other government connected organizations. DR was not associated in that way, until aikibudo started its association through the involvement of Hirai Minoru. By the way, I've recently read that, contrary to what Hirai indicated, "aikido" was NOT an umbrella term for all koryu jujutsu, it was a suggested revision of "aikibudo," probably to make it 'modern,' fitting in with judo, kendo, etc.

A yes, I remember that from the thread on aikiweb, http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25243 , you should check out the interview with Sensei Tada in the last post, if you already haven't. He says that it was in fact still called aiki-budo when he started to train. He also confirms what you wrote about it being O'Sensei's Aikido (aiki-budo) and not an umbrella term.

Lance Gatling
11th September 2017, 01:12
The Dai Nihon Butokukai originally had two divisions: Gekiken and Kyujutsu.
I think Naginatajutsu was next.

Then Kano Jigoro and others convinced it to add a jujutsu division. Shortly after, he chaired a committee of jujutsu masters and their reps to establish the common jujutsu kata. That's well known. Their work created and confirmed the Randori no Kata, known today as two separate kata: Nage no kata and Katame no kata.

The jujutsu division was eventually renamed the judo division, about the same time the gekiken division became kendo.

When aikibudo showed up, to the extent that it participated in the DNBK, it was tucked under the judo division. Nagaoka sensei headed that for decades.

I dug up the founding documents of the new Dai Nihon Butokukai after the old one was shut down. Ueshiba Morihei sensei is named as an advisor in his own right. This is the Butokukai that was headquartered in the powerful Home Ministry in Tokyo rather than Kyoto.

The establishment of the new Dai Nihon Butukokai and Hirai Minoru sensei's interaction with it led to the name aikido. No surprise, except to the apparent surprise of Ueshiba sensei, who wasn't directly involved.

I've been looking for years for Hirai sensei's book that supposedly offers the standard 'aikido' kata to the Dai Nihon Butokukai - even today, his grandson (son?) claims he teaches it. I've never seen a copy of the book, but have been told by a student of Hirai sensei what is taught today in Korindo aikido is not the same.

MrIggy
11th September 2017, 03:48
The Dai Nihon Butokukai originally had two divisions: Gekiken and Kyujutsu.
I think Naginatajutsu was next.

Then Kano Jigoro and others convinced it to add a jujutsu division. Shortly after, he chaired a committee of jujutsu masters and their reps to establish the common jujutsu kata. That's well known. Their work created and confirmed the Randori no Kata, known today as two separate kata: Nage no kata and Katame no kata.

The jujutsu division was eventually renamed the judo division, about the same time the gekiken division became kendo.

Do you know perhaps in which years did these events occur?


When aikibudo showed up, to the extent that it participated in the DNBK, it was tucked under the judo division. Nagaoka sensei headed that for decades.

Was this in the old or in the new DNB?


I dug up the founding documents of the new Dai Nihon Butokukai after the old one was shut down. Ueshiba Morihei sensei is named as an advisor in his own right. This is the Butokukai that was headquartered in the powerful Home Ministry in Tokyo rather than Kyoto.

The establishment of the new Dai Nihon Butukokai and Hirai Minoru sensei's interaction with it led to the name aikido. No surprise, except to the apparent surprise of Ueshiba sensei, who wasn't directly involved.

It's said that Aikido became a part of the Butokukai in 1942. that would be the old DNB, in which also it is said that Hirai was involved.


I've been looking for years for Hirai sensei's book that supposedly offers the standard 'aikido' kata to the Dai Nihon Butokukai - even today, his grandson (son?) claims he teaches it. I've never seen a copy of the book, but have been told by a student of Hirai sensei what is taught today in Korindo aikido is not the same.

Great, more misinformation from them.

P Goldsbury
11th September 2017, 10:46
The Dai Nihon Butokukai originally had two divisions: Gekiken and Kyujutsu.
I think Naginatajutsu was next.

Then Kano Jigoro and others convinced it to add a jujutsu division. Shortly after, he chaired a committee of jujutsu masters and their reps to establish the common jujutsu kata. That's well known. Their work created and confirmed the Randori no Kata, known today as two separate kata: Nage no kata and Katame no kata.

The jujutsu division was eventually renamed the judo division, about the same time the gekiken division became kendo.

When aikibudo showed up, to the extent that it participated in the DNBK, it was tucked under the judo division. Nagaoka sensei headed that for decades.

I dug up the founding documents of the new Dai Nihon Butokukai after the old one was shut down. Ueshiba Morihei sensei is named as an advisor in his own right. This is the Butokukai that was headquartered in the powerful Home Ministry in Tokyo rather than Kyoto.

The establishment of the new Dai Nihon Butukokai and Hirai Minoru sensei's interaction with it led to the name aikido. No surprise, except to the apparent surprise of Ueshiba sensei, who wasn't directly involved.

I've been looking for years for Hirai sensei's book that supposedly offers the standard 'aikido' kata to the Dai Nihon Butokukai - even today, his grandson (son?) claims he teaches it. I've never seen a copy of the book, but have been told by a student of Hirai sensei what is taught today in Korindo aikido is not the same.

Lance,

Have you any comments on Denis Gainty's Martial Arts and the Body Politic in Meiji Japan?

Best wishes,

Peter Goldsbury

MrIggy
1st November 2017, 08:06
"I'm not sure about the 1930's, but I've seen certificates with "Aikido" listed as early as 1940...." - Chris Li

"Are there any pictures of them?..." - Igor Vojnović

"Just a fragment of a scroll (Aikido as the art name), no dan ranks, at least none that I know of, until 1942." - Chris Li

So it seems that the name "Aikido" was in official use before 1942.