The Sword and the Thumb

[John Lindsey]

I have always been taught that a proper grip uses the lower fingers more than the thumb and forefinger. Recently, I sprained both my thumbs playing soccer (long story..I am a goal keeper)and it was quite interesting to train with my sword afterwards since the pain let me know when I was gripping way too much.

Thus, what are your thoughts on proper grip with a sword?

[Tetsutaka]

You ARE talking about the katana - right, John? or is "sword" just a metaphor...

I think any grip which prevents you from dropping a large, very sharp instrument should be considered acceptable. Then again, I don't know anything about iaido or sword practice. I did once get nine stitches in my left thumb when I accidentally dropped an antique tanto while showing it and then tried to grab it before it hit the floor. Apparently, that was the improper grip...

:)


[Edited by budokai on 06-27-2000 at 02:53 PM]

[Kolschey]

I remember a seminar I went to where Shihan Mikio Nishiuchi was discussing the use of Okinawan weaponry. It was his experience from his practice of both Iaido and Okinawan Kobudo that the distribution of strength should be greatest in the smallest two fingers and lesser in the other two fingers and thumb. A sort of descending scale, if you will. I have heard similar things from both Kendo and Kenjutsu teachers.

[Erik Tracy]

Think of it this way;

If you swing and try to cut with more strength in the first fingers there is a very natural tendency for the wrists to pronate. What happens next as you meet more resistance when cutting is for the shoulders to raise up and the cut get weaker - your body literally rises up.

Quite the opposite if you apply more pressure with the back fingers: the shoulders drop and the body counters the pressure of the cut with a deeping of the center - adding more strength to your cut.

Once you let your wrists pronate (typically the result of too much pressure with 1st and 2nd fingers) you are now "pointing" the sword tip thru your swing - VERY weak.

Just my novice observation - your mileage may very.

Erik Tracy
MJER
Jikishin-Kai

[fowlerl]

In shin-kage ryu we are taught to grip with the thumb and index finger pointing out. The middle and ring fingers wrap around with the pinkies lightly gripping. To use a 'death grip' (all fingers squeezing) makes agile quick response impossible - the difference between a 'life' sword or a 'dead' sword.

I imagine that if your thumbs are injured, then the fleshy/meaty part of the thumb is also bruised. I am afraid that the only answer is perseverance.

LFowler

[Boris]

Hello all,
Well, this is my first post since signing up...I've been watching from the sidelines for some time. This topic is of particular interest since my last practice in the Dojo provided an opportunity to discover a little bit about it.
The rainy season has begun in Japan, so my Dojo can get pretty hot and humid. After last practice I found that I had developed many blisters on my thumb and forefingers. So, I casually showed them to my Sensei. He quickly scolded me and said that this was an indication of incorrect grip! Oddly enough, I had never developed any blisters in the winter, or thought of showing him before...He then showed me how the pinky and ring finger give the "snap" to the katana and the forefingers and thumb act as a pivot until the tsuka reaches the palm. He then showed me that he had callouses on his pinkies!
Well, seems like I can look forward to more blisters!

[Gil Gillespie]

Musashi's poetry in Go Rin No Sho may confuse in its applications, but about the grip he is crystal clear. He reinforces most of the above: strength in pinkie & ring finger, middle finger "neither loose nor tight," thumb and index finger loose. He cautions against the "death grip" insisting on "pliable hands" and maintaining that fixxed hands are a bad thing.

My sensei reinforces that by adding that the index finger, though loose, should remain wrapped around the tsuka and not extended, as many high ranking kendoka do, including (have you noticed?) the fellow at left on the E-budo banner!

In iai nukitsuke (the opening draw/cut) he emphasizes that the sword must be pushed out of the saya, fingers loose. The actual cutting power is enabled by a progressive tightening of the fingers in order: pinkie, ring, middle, then index snapping the blade through the extension of its extended arc as it slices, not hits, the target.

Now if you'll excuse I have to go work on that for 10 or 15 years. . .

[ghp]

Gil,


The actual cutting power is enabled by a progressive tightening of the fingers in order: pinkie, ring, middle, then index snapping the blade through the extension of its extended arc as it slices, not hits, the target.

I think I understand what you are saying if this description applies solely to the grip; however, would you agree that the "actual cutting power" comes from the hips, and/or koshi-iri ["lowering the hips"] -- which transfers body weight during impact?

What you describe sounds more like a quick snap, which may cut flesh, sever jugular, or pop eyes -- but would not cleave the body deeply. Using hip rotation [for all cuts] and lowering center of gravity during impact [for kesagiri] transfers the blade's velocity and multiplies the force of impact. The "snap" may be a good first-strike, to be followed by the heavy second-strike. But, if at all possible, I'd rather strike the decisive blow first.

I agree with your opinion about the "extended finger" -- they make great targets! :)


Regards,
Guy

[Daniel Pokorny]

John,

Sorry to hear about your thumbs, did that once playing (American) football. Hurt like #&!! as I recall.

I too have been taught, by four different highly qualified people, that the grip is from the pinky inward toward the thumb. In fact, what was suggested to me was to take up my bokken, go into the back yard and swing it. Each time you make a cut loosen your grip a little. When the thing flys out of your hands, back up one and keep that as your grip. I also find I can train much longer with that grip.

Guy,

I train with Gil and yes, he was really giving a good description of nukitsuke, which in some cases would cut across the eyes (flesh type cut) to disable the opponent, then following with the type of cut you are describing.

You make a great point though. The hips are where the power is. Also consider nukitsuke accross the eyes where the hips are moving opposite from the blade. Counter power! I would also mention tip speed derived from a proper grip is vital as well. Proper grip, hip movement, and the spirit all must come together at once. If you're lacking in any of these areas you'll know it as soon as you attempt to actually cut something, huh!.

Regards,

Daniel C. Pokorny

[Gil Gillespie]

Hi Guy

I just read in your profile that you work with NASA. As an itinerant scenic artist I spent 10 months in 1997 working on Tom Hanks' "From The Earth To The Moon" miniseries for HBO. What a learning experience that was. I hope you enjoyed the project. I remain extremely proud of the (sometimes overly) meticulous nature of our art dept. It is arguably the best film project ever produced in Florida.

As to your post, Dan took the words right out of my mouth. His paragraph on the convergence of grip, hips, and leverage is, I believe, as good a synopsis of that consideration as I have read in a long time. There are many far longer passages that don't impart near the understanding. Way t' go, Dan!

The nukitsuke cut I was referring to is usually done from seiza in a horizontal arc. The body mechanics alone make it impossible to employ the downward settling of the hips. Therefore the grip becomes far more important as the hips can only snap away just as the fingers tighten and the mono uchi reaches maximum speed cutting through the target.

In both seated and standing wazas this one-handed horizontal cut is immediately followed by a powerful two-handed overhead downward cut that employs all the mechanics Dan and you mentioned, in a challenging and rewarding unity of body, mind and spirit.

As this kirioroshi cut is executed the grip of both hands wrings inward, "like wringing out a wet towel" we have read and heard forever. This wringing motion not only stabilizes the blade angle, but to return to John's consideration of his thumbs, it also aligns the radius bone in the forearm with the ridge of the tsuka and the mune. All are one straight line. "You should be able to set an egg in the hollow between your thumb and index finger!" I was taught. If there is concussion on the thumbs perhaps they are somewhat rolled to the outside.(??)

I know there's a lot of serious sword people on this site and I sure don't mean to be presumptuous. I know nothing and I can prove it. If I get anything right it's due to the excellence and perseverance of my senseis, whose determination and patience sometimes outlast my clumsy endeavors. Arigato gozaimashita!

Dan, see you in class Friday night!

[Gil Gillespie]

Guy

I just visited your website. Wow! Very impressive! I feel a little silly (ok, a LOT silly) engaging in a sword dialog with you; I hope you accept it in the spirit in which it was offered. This is the nth time I've just casually conversed with a name on E-budo only to find I've been posting with a serious budoka of prodigious depth and accomplishments. It's what I truly love about this site.

I look forward to banging brains and learning from you. See you further along the Path.

All the best,
Gil

[ghp]

Gil,

I thought both you and Daniel expressed yourselves quite well -- I enjoyed reading your comments and was mentally agreeing with you while I read.

Yup, forever we've heard "chakin shibori" -- wringing out the wet dish towel; and yes, the wringing action brings the arms in alignment with the tsuka's ridge. I'd only add that with a proper grip the "life lines" of both palms will overlap the tsuka's ridge.

One teaching point that Nakamura sensei often emphasized was that with this proper grip, even if your left thumb was damaged, you could still hold the sword steady. Try it -- hold the sword with only your left hand and release your thumb's grip; you'll see that the sword is stable. Sensei's left thumb was damaged during the war and he's never had feeling in it since; he'll hold the sword in his left hand and -- to reinforce the lesson -- he'll then use his right index finger to slap the left thumb about. The sword is still stable.

I look forward to further comments.

Regards,
Guy

[Tim Atkinson]

I have been away from the scene for a while so I hope others will see this.
In the ryu in which I train we were given a very practicle reason for gripping with rear fingers and heel of the hand. The forefingers and thumb are an obvious target (we have waza which take advantage of this) and as such if one was to loose a front finger in a fight your grip would not suffer. Adding to this, we never point with the front finger or thumb for the afore mentioned reasons.

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
[B]Musashi's poetry in Go Rin No Sho may confuse in its applications, but about the grip he is crystal clear. He reinforces most of the above: strength in pinkie & ring finger, middle finger "neither loose nor tight," thumb and index finger loose. He cautions against the "death grip" insisting on "pliable hands" and maintaining that fixxed hands are a bad thing.

What differs in Miyamoto's style is that he uses the fingers only. The Tsuka is tucked in behind the ridge of the small finger and the large muscle below it in a straight line ninety degrees to the hand and stays in there.

Hyakutake

[John Lindsey]

I just remembered a time a Japanese teacher (Muramatsu S. of his Myo-fu An organization) showed me a "trick" in which he had hidden between his forefinger and thumb a small stone. He did this for both hands. What he did was after a block, shot the stone right into my eye! I never saw em until it was too late and it caught me off guard!

[Gil Gillespie]

Jeez,John, you ran with a rough crowd!!!

Hyakutake, I've reread your description of Musashi's grip several times and I must admit to being totally confused. My abstract reasoning is admittedly poor but I just can't picture what you're describing. Could you rephrase that for a truly complete idiot?

Musashi fascinates me. I have 3 translations of Go Rin No Sho. Could you recommend any available books on him in English (besides the giant novelized bio that I've seen).
I would appreciate your response to these questions. Off-forum e-mails are cool.

Go shinsetsu-ni arigato gozaimasu.

In gassho,
Gil Gillespie

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
Jeez,John, you ran with a rough crowd!!!

Hyakutake, I've reread your description of Musashi's grip several times and I must admit to being totally confused.

Go shinsetsu-ni arigato gozaimasu.

In gassho,
Gil Gillespie

I would like to help but it's just something we learn in practice. Our practice handbook is Gorin no Sho. Most practice sessions are followed by a short lecture as to meanings within it.

I could do some pictures but it would be a bit forward of me to do so. Lets hope one day I can add some detailed pictures of Imai Sensei to my web site.

I'm afraid Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is not very computer literate as yet. What I have on site now has been an uphill battle

Considering that fact that the technology for making these things comes from over here. The use and realization of computers as an educational tool has still not arrived.

It was only yesterday that the vice principal of my University asked me what "@" meant.

Back to the grip: Looking at your hand sideways, bend it slightly. looking at the crease that stretches from the left finger up to the third finger. The tsuka drops in there. As you can imagine with this grip the chudan posture is very flat and shallow.

The jodan posture has the left wrist well back and a little higher than the right ear. At first one feels more like a contortionist rather than someone ready to enter combat!

Regards, Hyakutake Colin http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword