PDA

View Full Version : Correct titles for MA's



dakotajudo
27th April 2001, 19:10
This may not quite belong to this group, but is related to the soke discussion.



It's seems that some martial artists carry a lot of titles, but what are the requirements for a title?



For example, we have the soke thread, but what credentials for about shihan? Menkyo? Master? GrandMaster?



Some of the titles apply to koryu, but some are Western titles.



One usage that irks me is professor. In common usage, a professor is a Ph.D. (or other terminal degree) recipient teaching as an institution of higher learning. Thus, a Ph.D. teaching at a high school is generally not a professor, nor a person with a Master's degree teaching at a university.



Personally, I'm currently teaching at a university, but don't have tenure and am not on tenure track, so to use the title Professor would be presumptuous.



What started this was the link posted by Joseph Svinth, in the "Here a soke..." thread (sorry, haven't learned how to cross-link). Of the twenty recognized soke, there are 13 doctors or professors.



For example, Wally Jay is listed as professor, but in his bio there is no affiliation with a university. So is professor correct?



In contrast, Professor Kano is appropriate, because of Kano's affiliation with teaching universities in Japan.



If Western MA's don't use Western titles correctly, how can we expect them to use Japanese titles correctly?



Peter

Terry Ham
27th April 2001, 19:55
hmmm I might be wrong but I belive in Danzan ryu (kodenkan) jujutsu Professor is used for anyone 5thdan and above, and there is atleast one Professor that I know of who is a 3rd dan, it was a special award to him I belive because of the work he has done for the Danzan ryu group.

Also I was told once that in Brazilian Jiujitsu Professor is at 2nd degree (didnt say dan as i dont think they use the kyu/dan could be wrong) black belt and really the 2nd degree in Bjj is the third if I herd right the first is Black belt then one stripe would be 1st hmmm think this is right but I know they use the Professor title.

Joseph Svinth
28th April 2001, 08:36
"Professor" is indeed a title used in DZR. In fencing, titles include Maitre, Provost, and Schollar. Lots of titles, and some folks aim to have them all. Ego is a bear, ain't it?

As for getting a title, there are several paths. One is to earn it, while another is to inherit it. The more traditional ways, however, include awarding the title to yourself (Holy Roman Emperor), marrying into the lineage (Jews and Junkers), obtaining the title through force (Empress of India), or buying it (various martial arts organizations).

dakotajudo
28th April 2001, 14:07
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
"Professor" is indeed a title used in DZR. In fencing, titles include Maitre, Provost, and Schollar. Lots of titles, and some folks aim to have them all. Ego is a bear, ain't it?

As for getting a title, there are several paths. One is to earn it, while another is to inherit it. The more traditional ways, however, include awarding the title to yourself (Holy Roman Emperor), marrying into the lineage (Jews and Junkers), obtaining the title through force (Empress of India), or buying it (various martial arts organizations).

I wanted this thread to cover more than just the professor title.

For example, if I remember correctly, the title shihan was used by the aikikai to denote specific teachers overseeing a region in the US, under the direction of the Hombu dojo. The title was not so much due to rank, but to position.

There were many high ranked Aikido instructors, but only 6-7 shihan in America. The shihan took direct responbility for awarding rank in the Aikikai. I took my 5th kyu exam from the head of the Midwest Aikido Federation, who was an 8th dan.

It was my impression that shihan took an administrative role overseeing all affiliated dojos and instructors. (correct me if I'm wrong, I've not been active in the Aikikai in a while).

In contrast, some organizations (or teachers) seem to take on the shihan title automatically upon achieving a certain rank (5th dan), but don't necessarily have any administrative duties associated with the title.

So how should the title shihan be used?

What good are titles if they don't confer some responsibility? For example, professor at a university is generally held to a higher standard than instructors at the same university, even if they are teaching the same material.

While we can't control self-titled MA's, those of us in national organizations (in my case, the USJA) can have some say in how these titles are granted and recognized by the organization.

Peter

Kim Taylor
28th April 2001, 15:00
As far as I can remember in the Aikikai there were two ranks, 1. When you could teach (shodan), and 2. when you could award rank (shihan). Everything else is just placeholder and an encouragement to the kids to keep moving along in their practice.

In other arts those two ranks happen at different times, for instance in the kendo federation you can't teach independantly until 5dan and you can't ever award rank by yourself.

I can't actually think of any other "real" grades in the arts.

So what are the uses of all the other dan ranks, shogo (renshi kyoshi hanshi), instructor levels (fukushidoin, shidoin), and koryu papers like oku iri and mokuroku and menkyo and meister and provost and all that other stuff? Well as Joe said, Ego boosting, student bragging (my sensei's belt is scruffier than yours), and advertising value (who wouldn't want to study with a soke rather than a sensei?).

It's also a good way to do a fast check on where people's priorities lie, just like in academia. If someone is a full professor and insists on being called "Professor Jones", while another full professor says, "call me Jimmy"... or if one guy in the department is constantly angling for that "assistant professor" title (which carries absolutely no extra administrative weight or money at all) while another is simply working away in the office at his grant applications so that his techs and grad students can do good work for him...

In other words confusing the title with the man, or on the personal level, confusing the title for the accomplishment.

As my Aikido sensei used to say, "rank is a measure of how long you've been hanging around".

Mr. Kim Taylor Esq. MSc. BSc. (who grew out of being Master Taylor at puberty).

Jerry Johnson
28th April 2001, 17:45
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth

As for getting a title... buying it (various martial arts organizations).


Add self-imposed and/or plagiarized( for those who don't want to spend the money). I think next tittle will be Yoshi (sp? -referring to Here a Soke ... thread. A latter post by Bodiford). I prefer Superduper Super Hero and "Saturday Night Fever duds" with the Ladies ;) For me titles are either superfluous, or functional. Most highend titles are superfluous, going beyond function and purpose in reference to Martial arts. Titles it seems have been a part of Japanese culture, it seems they like them, and so do many Americans. Profession is a title I think most people misuse unintentionally, not understanding what it really means. This is to point out that it's worse with titles from other cultures. It sounds important so it must be important. This is not a reflection on the Danzan ryu. I don't study it. And what I understand they include academic study. And that is fine. Generally, what I am saying is , in most cases, titles, titles every where and not a drop of skill. Hence, the advent of so many people having them and the difficulty of accuracy. i.e. those who buy them or self-impose them in the martial arts. So I don't take anyone's title too seriously. If some one says they are CEO of X martial art group it just tells me they lead it or head it. That is all, not a whole lot of other emphasis is put on it, like someone, like a Bill Gates who effects society so greatly. Soke Yoshi yada yada title isn't really that important to society for me to worry so much about. Its a perspective thing.

hyaku
29th April 2001, 00:17
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
[B]


Add self-imposed and/or plagiarized( for those who don't want to spend the money). I think next tittle will be Yoshi.
............

Now that would be really funny. The qualification(if it could be called that) of a yoshi is to take the wife's family name and the finances and responsibilies of living with and looking after her family. Living with the in-laws or even ones own parents is a qualification that I'm sure a lot of people would not want. Even in Japan its a dying custom.

Of course is has no connection with MA unless the father-in law is also an MA Headmaster and has taught you all he knows.

Do not let anybody tell you otherwise

Hyakutake Colin (yet another Yoshi!)