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Jerry Johnson
2nd May 2001, 05:15
This ignorant mind wants to know so he can follow another thread better. Please in English and layment terms what the heck is a Ushiro-ukemi?

I posted this as a new thread so not to distract from another thread.

P Goldsbury
2nd May 2001, 05:36
My apologies, Mr Johnson.

'Ukemi' is a Japanese word which means 'to receive'; 'ushiro' means 'backward' or 'behind'. In a technique like 'shiho-nage' ('four-directions throw'), 'tori' (person throwing) takes the wrist of 'uke' (person being thrown) and goes under the arm. He pivots and usually bends uke's arm at the elbow and throws.

There are many ways of doing this technique and the focus of the technique can be uke's elbow or uke's shoulder. In the dangerous way of doing the throw, tori throws uke straight down to the ground, but keeps holding uke's wrist right to the end as he throws. If full force is put into the throw, uke has to resist the force of gravity and of tori's weight, and there is danger of severe injury to the back of the head.

Sorry for all the Japanese, but the illustrations in the books I referred to can probably give you a better idea of the technique, and the breakfall/ukemi involved, than my verbal explanation.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

Jerry Johnson
2nd May 2001, 16:29
Oh no, I apologize for my ignorance and my jest. I am grateful to have you explain it so well. Btw, I am glad you post such an informative and responible thread about the dangers in Aikido. I am sure this will help allot of people avoid injury in the future.

Thank you.


Sincerely,

Enfield
2nd May 2001, 22:58
Originally posted by P Goldsbury
My apologies, Mr Johnson.

'Ukemi' is a Japanese word which means 'to receive'; 'ushiro' means 'backward' or 'behind'.

Uke is indeed the verb stem of ukeru which does mean receive among other things, but mi means body. Ukemi will be recognized by most Japanese, at least in my experience, to mean falling, rolling, etc.

Enfield
2nd May 2001, 23:06
Double post, sorry.

PRehse
2nd May 2001, 23:32
Interestingly in Tomiki's Shodokan system the straight down shihonage is done as hanza handachi for both 6th Kyu and Dan grades. Done right I don't believe there is time or room to do anything but ushiro ukemi and shifting the technique to tachiwaza would not create more of either. I remember being told that the technique is very dangerous when done as tachiwaza.

The tachiwaza version of shihonage that is performed is done more of a lateral projection with uke's wrist behind uke's neck. The latter is done both in hanza handachi and tachi not only for safeties sake but to lock uke up. A role out from this position is pretty difficult if not impossible.

As uke's wrist moves away from the back of his neck the danger to uke's elbow goes up exponentially but so does the chance to role out of it. I'm sitting here twisting around at work trying to figure out if my elbow could be saved by an ordinary ushiro ukemi with someone out to hurt me by pulling my wrist from my body. I think that the person who mentioned yokomen ukemi for this situation may have a point. I don't think I could role out fast enough. My ukemi sucks so that might not be saying much.

Karl Kuhn
3rd May 2001, 00:54
I have to agree with Peter. There are shiho-nage from which there are no rolls.

Karl

P Goldsbury
3rd May 2001, 01:37
To P Rehse,

I was replying to one of your posts on another thread when I came across you latest post here. I give you my own experience of learning shigo nage. I have had several different teachers and you might like to compare.

1. When I first learned shiho-nage, my teacher (not Aikikai) sometimes did not turn after taking the wrist and raising it to the shoulder. Sometimes he kept going straight, with the entire technique executed in a straight line. Such is the strain on the elbow or shoulder that uke has no choice but to follow the movement and it is quite a large movement. My teacher let go of the arm quite early on and so the ukemi, usually an energetic ushiro ukemi, presented no problem. The only teacher I have seen do it like this is Arikawa Sensei of the Aikikai Hombu, but he held on a lot longer.

2. With Chiba Sensei, the technique was different and I thought this might be due to his weapons training. Chiba Sensei did turn after taking the wrist up to the shoulder, but then did a big, straight shomen uchi sword movement and usually stopped the movement around lower hip height, as one would with a sword. The focus of the techique was on the elbow and 'Chiba-nage' and 'Chiba elbow' became part of the dojo folk tales and anecdotes (I am thinking of Chiswick and Tempukan in the seventies.

3. I attended several seminars taught by Saito Morihiro Sensei and the sword influence was also clear. However, the movement was smaller than Chiba Sensei's and one had time to do ushiro ukemi or yoko ukemi, depending on the focus.

4. I once took uke for Fujita Masatake Sensei in a seminar in the UK and this practice was one of those 'revelations' one sometimes has in aikido. Fujita Sensei also turned after taking the wrist up to the shoulder, but then went straight down, almost vertically, and held on to the wrist right to ground level. There was no possibility whatever of taking a break fall from this technique and avoiding hitting one's head depended solely on the strength of the neck muscles. Fujita Sensei sometimes says that aikido can be practised on one mat (ichi-jo) or even less and the movement was very small and mainly on a vertical plane.

5. In the Hiroshima city dojo, where I practise mainly, the movement is also straight down, but we let go much earlier. The focus is more on keeping uke unbalanced throughout the technique and letting him/her fall. The technique is quite soft and a break fall is not necessary.

Does my experience largely square with yours?

Regards,

Peter Goldsbury

PRehse
3rd May 2001, 14:13
Originally posted by P Goldsbury
To P Rehse,

I was replying to one of your posts on another thread when I came across you latest post here. I give you my own experience of learning shigo nage. I have had several different teachers and you might like to compare.


Does my experience largely square with yours?


Not by a long shot - I don't have anywhere near your experience. ;)

Still like you I have experienced a whole range of shihonage types some which had a very soft feel to them and others where I thought that the risk to my elbow was well beyond what I was willing to take.

On another shihonage note one of my teachers told me that shihonage was one of the most useless techniques for self defence in that if you get it wrong you are cooked. My prefered way of doing it is to pass through an intermediate position where uke is unbalanced with the wrist twisted, relatively far from the body and low and the elbow high. From this positon you can switch to mae-otoshi (forward throw), ushiro-ate (back strike) or move into a choke. I believe that this version has the greater chance for success mainly because you have other options.

One of the incentives for setting up my own club was that I could go back to doing that version which people were not happy with in the club I was practicing at. On the other side the soft version sure helped me improve my ukemi.

Ron Tisdale
3rd May 2001, 18:39
Peter R. said, "I think that the person who mentioned yokomen ukemi "

What! you know someone who breakfalls on the side of their head!?!?!?

I'd like to see that.... :)

Ron (just kidding) Tisdale

PRehse
3rd May 2001, 19:01
Ack!!!! :o

Not absolutely sure here but does not men mean side in this context. I always understood Shomen to mean front side as in shomen-ate front strike or bowing to shomen (the front). I know men also means head.

My listing of the various ukemi just has yoko (not yokomen) for side and Kouhou for what we have been calling ushiro in this thread.


Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Peter R. said, "I think that the person who mentioned yokomen ukemi "

What! you know someone who breakfalls on the side of their head!?!?!?

I'd like to see that.... :)

Ron (just kidding) Tisdale