Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Japanese terms

[HitokiriBattousai]

Hi!

I'm not sure if this issue has been brought up before, but I was wondering about historical/traditional roots of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and if they use Japanese terms. I'm guessing not since none really show up on their sites. I'm curious because I'm a fan of using proper terms, whether it's with the Bujinkan, kenjutsu, or rapier fencing. Since they probably don't, is there a site out there or anyone who could give me a link or some help?Thanks.

[MarkF]

Well, since it makes sense to see Gracie jiu-jitsu as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and that Brazilian jiujitsu is trademarked and comes from Brazil that is actually isn't a Japanese Martial art of a Japanese combative sport.

Since it was the trademark AS Jiujitsu and as that spelling, there really is no reason to give terms Japanese names, but I suppose they do. I certainly am no expert, but that is what is reasonable to believe.

Maeda (Conde Koma) taught to them what he described as Jiu jitsu so the name stuck. While a few nage waza are used almost entirely as a way to bring the opponent to the mat so as to put on some grappling hold to submission makes sense. Maeda probably taught them what was easiest to teach so ne waza they learned.

That said, Japanese names for the grappling they do certainly is possible, but since it isn't a Japanese grappling style like judo, and since Japanese "names" of waza are as in any other language, IE, short descriptions of what it is, whichever language is the language of the country in which it materialized. So Portuguese terminology, or English, are probably more correct.
****

Perhaps someone more familiar would like to take a hack at this?

Mark

[MarkF]

Perhaps a good site for Gracie jiujitsu is this link Gracie Jiujitsu (http://bjj.org).

As side comment, most have always said the name of Mitsuo Maeda during his professional career was Conde Koma, Count Koma, etc., and means count of combat. This, apparently, he took on and liked the name, or so it goes, in Spain, and most MA people I know say the same thing, with slight variations on spelling.

I don't claim so speak Porugues so this could be the problem, but I do speak Spanish. I've looked and looked for any variation in the Language, Castillian or otherwise, but the "K" sound and letter is an adopted one at best, or is an incorrect spelling of both; Konde Koma (it is included in the Spanish Alphabet, but is in no way, of Spanish origin, as is the case with the letter Y which has the same sound as "i". The difference has always been that Y is called " Y Griega or Greek Y, and the "i" is called "i" latina or Latin "i")

The bjj.org site above is one which states Maeda was called Count Koma and means "Count of Combat" which could only be true if one were combating disease through the state of Coma.

So unless this is just the manner in which people pronounced it while Maeda was in Brazil, and the moniker was given and the "K" sound was literal, the name Conde Coma would mean just that; Count of Coma. It makes sense when you bring a person to a state of unconciousness, it could bring them to a coma-like state, and since he was performing as a professional in those days, the latter name makes even more sense. But Count of Combat, in Spanish, is just not correct, as to what I've found on the subject. Combat in Spanish is "combate" or perhaps Guerra, as this means war (no actual pun intended).

[Ben Reinhardt]

MarkF wrote: "Well, since it makes sense to see Gracie jiu-jitsu as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and that Brazilian jiujitsu is trademarked and comes from Brazil that is actually isn't a Japanese Martial art of a Japanese combative sport.
"

I think that it's Gracie Jiu-Jitsu that is trademarked, not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Rorion Gracie came up with Gracie Jiu Jitsu as a separate name. At least I've never seen a TM after Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

As to the names of the techniques of GJJ or BJJ, most of them are familiar Judo ne waza techniques. BJJ/GJJ has a multitude of different entries and set ups that they name as well, unlike Judo, whose ne waza names are pretty generic.

BJJ/GJJ was derived from Judo, but has branched off to become specialized in ne waza, like Kosen Judo in the early 20th century.

Ben Reinhardt

[Scanderson]

My own research supports what Mr. Reinhardt states - here is an interesting link about the history of GJJ:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html

Here is what I have read:

1) Maeda was a Judoka from the Kodokan, originally sent by Jigoro Kano to the US for demonstration purposes - would Kano have sent someone who did not represent his Judo?

2) M. Kimura, who fought Gracie (and won), remarked that Gracie's Jiu Jitsu reminded him of the pre-war rough and tumble style of Judo - just the kind that Maeda would have studied.

My Conclusion and thoughts:

GJJ/BJJ has roots in early Judo. It has evolved quite a bit from Judo though - with a predominent focus on groundwork (Ne Waza). Thus, it is logical to assume that great advancements have been made in groundwork as a result of this focus, to the point of divergence. Thus, many claim is it quite different in approach to Judo Ne Waza.

Stephen C. Anderson

[MarkF]

I don't know if Kano actually *sent* anyone, but at that time, many Japanese left Japan for political reasons, and settled in South America. Maeda did teach jiu-jitsu some to Carlos Gracie, etc, to a large extent, but wasn't there long enough to teach everything so, presuming ne waza easier to teach, that made up the bulk of what is known as Brazilian jiu jitsu or judo.

The Gracie family, while including some nage waza, did center on ne waza, and with many revisions, BJJ or GJJ was born.

At least, it seems to me as good an explanation as anything, since today, Brazilian Jiu jitsu is a copyrighted product.

As Masahiko Kimura had turned professional by that time, his match with Helio Gracie was most likely a "work." Since he used his famous O soto gari in the match repeatedly, it did end on the mat since the agreed-upon terms were that of BJJ, and only a submission would end the match.

Later, Kimura returned to the amateur ranks and once again got to the finals in the All Japan Championship, and in the Grand-championships fought to a draw.
****

History is a funny thing; it changes with each telling.:)

Mark

[Kit LeBlanc]

Mark,

Actually, I think Ben is correct, BJJ is NOT trademarked, GJJ is. I think Rorion has tried to sue people for claiming to teach Gracie jujutsu (including family members), but BJJ is used by many groups without any present teaching connection to the Gracies, for example, the Machados.

I see BJJ as a Judo offshoot, emphasis newaza. My instructor now, in describing his BJJ classes in Brazil, describes Judo classes almost point by point, including the bowing. Nearly the same warmups, etc. with an emphasis on mat exercises. Now other classes crank up the Tool and do things very differently, but the roots are clearly there. In regular conversationws, we have always used Judo terminology until we started training with a Brazilian.

I do not see that the Brazilians particularly improved or do Judo newaza that differently. The guy I first trained with had done Judo and BJJ, another guy in the Portland area does Judo focussing on newaza and attends BJJ tournaments with his students, and both have stated to me that overall they think in many ways the Judo approach is superior, but few people in Judo today focus on groundwork. Now that a Judoka just won his division at the Abu Dhabi Combat Club Submission Wrestling championship, that might change.

A viewing of the Budokan Kosen Judo tapes shows many of the same moves and positions as are done in BJJ. There seems to be a different technical approach in terms of positions and submissions favored, but clearly the 'art' is the same. I have a Gene LeBell book with an original copyright of 1962 and most every common position, transition, and submission found in BJJ is in that book (along with a bunch of wrestling stuff). Clearly BJJ was around before 1962, but I do not believe LeBell was exposed to it. So how did he come up with a book showing the same techniques? He was a Judoka.

oh BTW, I think you are right about the Coma thing. I thought I read somewhere that it was supposed to mean that he was "clouded" or "troubled" or something like that, based on a Japanese term. I don't have my notes with me on that. It did NOT mean he was "the count of combat."

Kit

[Joseph Svinth]

Maeda was born in Aomori Prefecture, Japan, in November 1878. At age 17, he moved to Tokyo, where, on June 6, 1897, he joined the Kodokan. There he was a direct student of Kodokan director Sakujiro Yokoyama, a man famous for his participation in challenge matches and fights.

By 1903 Maeda was graded fourth dan in judo. Since the highest rank in those days was seventh dan, this suggests enormous talent. As a result, in 1904 he was invited to go to the United States with Tsunejiro Tomita, judo founder Jigoro Kano's original student; the idea was for Tomita to explain the theory of judo while Maeda demonstrated its application. But in the United States, Tomita was publicly challenged and defeated. This embarrassed Maeda and so he went off on his own to become a professional wrestler, which in turn embarrassed the Kodokan.

From 1906 to 1908, Maeda wrestled in the United States, Britain, Belgium, and Spain, and it was in the latter country that he adopted his stage name of Conde Koma. The name was a pun: read one way, it meant Count of Combat while read another it meant Count of [Economic] Troubles.

And Kit and Ben are correct -- Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is the registered trademark.

Some light reading:

Barbosa de Medeiros, Rildo Heros. "The History of Judo: The Arrival to Brazil: Count Koma," http://www.Judobrasil.com.br/komtr.htm

Gorsuch, Mark. "Mitsuyo Maeda (Count Koma) Biography,"
http://bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html

Harrison, E.J. 1982. The Fighting Spirit of Japan. Woodstock, NY: Overlook Press

Kimura, Masahiko. My Judo. http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm

Lima, Andre Alex. 1999. "Who's Who in the Gracie Family," Martial Arts Masters. Burbank, CA: C.F.W. Enterprises. 102-109

Marushima, Takao. 1997. Maeda Mitsuyo: Conde Koma. Tokyo: Shimazu Shobo (In Japanese)

Smith, Robert W. 1999. "Kimura," in Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century. Erie, PA: Via Media Publishing Co. 133-134

Wang, George. "History of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu," http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html

Williams, James and Stanley A. Pranin, "Interview with Rorion Gracie," Aikido Journal, 105 (Fall 1995), http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/interviews/Gracie.htm

[MarkF]

Sorry, folks for the misconception. At no time was I channeling and take full responsibility for the error.

The slighted Tomita was also one of the Shitenno (four heavenly lords) of the infamous "shi-ni-ai" at the Tokyo police department. His son went on to write "Sanshiro Sugata," a thinly veiled novel about Shiro Saigo, the youngest of the "Lords" and which later spawned two movies, one which was heavily censored due to the timing (1943), the latter in 1965 starring Toshiro Mifune.

Lots of stories in the naked dojo.

Mark

(If I'd looked in my own files, I wouldn't have mistakenly taken the copyright from the Gracies).

It was also a very general description, and I agree concerning what is and what isn't BJJ. Gene LeBell was sponsoring (or more lilely, finding sponsors) grappling tournaments by the 1980s. He also lived around the block from me in those days.

[Kevin73]

In regarding the post to the use of "K" versus "C" in the spanish language. It is true that spanish doesn't use the "k" in their words. BUT, since other languages do they adopted the letter. And since it was adopted....

Formal names, for example, that use "K" keep that. My name in spanish is still Kevin, it is not changed to Cevin because they don't have the sound. So to think that Koma would be changed to Coma isn't on the right track when it comes to translating a language usage. The pronunciation would usually keep to their phonics usage of using K and C as the same sound, so my name would be pronounced "Kay-Bean" where in this country it is pronounced differnently.

(Just a side note, why do TV news announcers feel like they have to change the name of spanish countries and pronounce them in spanish as opposed to their English names we have for them?)

[Scanderson]

My research indicates that BJJ has difersified from JUDO, but my Judo instructors tell me otherwise - in fact they liken if more to classic judo ne wazw - which makes me wonder - maybe it is Judo that has changed....


Stephen C. Anderson

[MarkF]

Just a note concerning the hard k sound in Spanish: K is a letter in the Spanish language. In fact, in the true Spanish alphabet, there are thirty letters, containing sounds which are generally listed in dictionaries separately.

My comment was only concerning Mistuo Maeda and where he picked up the name and what it means.
******

Judo has evolved since it began to take root. Take the nage waza uchimata. When I was competing in the sixties and seventies, no one lost balance which today is the norm, IE, tori falling on uke because there is so much lift with the leg. Back then, it was a straight thrust throw where most didn't lose balance unless it was a counter to uchimata or transition to ne waza if it didn't score Ippon.

There are also differing schools of thought on what grouping that throw belongs. The Kodokan has always maintained it is a leg sweep, while M. Kawaishi and others at Waseda thought it was a koshiwaza. I don't know if it is more dynamic now, but it certainly has changed, at least in contest.

So from my perspective, I think Kawaishi was probably right if you see it today, imagine what it was in the sixties, and then what it was before WWII.

I once said BJJ was a kind of "combat judo" since the point was to make one "give (tap out)" where it isn't so much of that as it is control in judo, the tap out being the shorter way of doing ne waza in contest. I've also heard some who have done both to a great extent say that those who do BJJ, are much more stiff in doing the techniques than most judoka.

After watching Kit for a while on the mat, that certainly helped separate the truth from the fiction.

That said, my manner of doing judo was to remain on my feet if at all possible. Heck, I'm not long enough in the torso to do yoko shiho gatame and have any advantage, and as someone said to me recently: "Your arms are too short.":)

Mark

(It seems I had an easier time freeing my captive arm from his grasp).