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PRehse
6th May 2001, 20:19
Years ago, when I was doing a more testosterone driven art then I do now, one of the yudansha made a point for which I never found a satisfactory answer.

I've taken medical school level courses on Human Physiology, courses on Exercise Physiology, Ph.D.. level courses in Biochemistry, have years of personal experience, and like most of talked with a whole slew of people including professional martial athletes. I'll try again on the off-chance that someone can provide a satisfactory answer - I have yet to find it.

During our training, more or less, we all warm up. The end result is that our range of motion is increased, the chance of pulling a muscle or other injury is decreased, and our overall ability both physically and mentally (we wake up) is enhanced. There are a whole series of biochemical and physiological changes which occur beyond the famous fight or flight response which also takes some time to kick in.

My question revolves around the cold start and how to or can you train for it. You are walking down a path and are jumped real sudden like. If you train with a warmed-up body is there a real chance that the range of motions that you respond with could cause you to basically take yourself out? The majority of my injuries could be directly attributed to not being properly warmed up and these include the real painful, sudden, debilitating variety (groin pull).

Your option's don't include - wait a minute while I do my stretchies.

I am not talking about the one on one fight where there is an escalation or the type of street battle where there is a lot of running back and forth before anything happens. Both of these situation, provide some warm-up.

Budo00
7th May 2001, 01:49
I am not an expert on the subject but I have been in real fights before. I can honestly say that I never noticed any pain during a fight even when hit. However, some times, a day or 2 later, I noticed that I was either bruised or sore in a lot of places.

I think that when fear/anger hits us, the adrenaline and other chemicals that kick in almost instantly warm us up. The heart rate goes way up as soon as a real fight jumps off. In a dangerous situation, some people seem to be completely impervious to pain.

I don’t know if one can train for a cold start fighting situation with out injuring some thing. Usually in my life, I wake up and stretch and do some other movements before I go out the door. Granted, I wouldn’t want to try to kick higher than my head first thing in the morning but I feel pretty loose by the time I start my day.

“I am not talking about the one on one fight where there is an escalation or the type of street battle where there is a lot of running back and forth before anything happens. Both of these situation provide some warm-up.”- I am not making fun of you but that reminds me of that movie “Warriors.”

PRehse
7th May 2001, 16:37
Originally posted by Budo00

“I am not talking about the one on one fight where there is an escalation or the type of street battle where there is a lot of running back and forth before anything happens. Both of these situation provide some warm-up.”- I am not making fun of you but that reminds me of that movie “Warriors.”

:D I was thinking more of the soccer battles I was caught up in England. Lot of running back and forth and me, innocent bystander, running to get out of the way. One time it didn't work and a guy bounced off-me with a knife in his chest. I had nothing to do with it but it sure didn't look good when the cops were sorting us out. Last soccer game I went to and the knife wound was not as bad as I first thought.

If more shit would have happened I could say I was warmed up.

Steve C
11th May 2001, 16:11
You might want to check out Peter Consterdine's 'Fit to Fight'* - it's a book about training for martial artists that talks about the body's reactions to aggression, and about the kind of training you need for the street.

I couldn't find it on Amazon.com, but it is on Amazon.co.uk. Hope this helps.

--
*Paperback - 183 pages new edition (September 2000)
Summersdale Publishers; ISBN: 0953763803

MarkF
12th May 2001, 11:18
Hi, Peter,
Some things to consider before you go off on a spending-spree and get more books, tapes, and/or machines which won't help much, at least for the situation of which you speak.

In a dojo setting, or practicing with friends, you are warming up to help your body respond to the damage you do to yourself, in a place for which it is meant. The damage, I mean, and other students/teachers who, very generally, are your equals in one manner of fighting. This is the norm, and most train so the guy with "cowboy punching" in some bar will not gain the advantage. That's what they think, anyway. You warm up to do the warm up which readies you for a particular situation, one which will probably be completely different than you expected.

IMO, the manner in which you train IS the warm up to the unexpected and extremely rare circumstances of a "real" fight.

after some experience, in teaching, in combative tournament fighting, or simply listening to those who were put in the situation in which you cannot say "wait a sec. Gotta warm up first. Then you can try to stab me." I've heard one which when I thought about it, made perfect sense. "The experienced person attacked out of complete surprise, is someone who will not know what to do until it is over." If you are working to work the body and mind to simply change what were your involuntary reflexes into conditioned reflexes when attacked in such a way, it isn't something you have a lot of time to ponder before excusing yourself from the situation.

You just do it, and again, IMO, one really won't know what to do, but may have to ponder the ends of the means to figure out what the means really were, and in most incidents, you just won't be able to put it together. You can be assured that it would be one of the few you do so often and so well that it becomes ingrained as a "conditioned reflex." Not second nature, but first.

So quit pondering the BS, and learn to breathe, use the center, and to relax. That is the real test, and if you can master that, you are nearly there, doing stuff most will never master. For self-defense, you only need to know a few techniques, but they must be known so well that it wouldn't become something you think of every time you do it. Of course, my Thompson Repeating Rifle will mow down your technique unless the technique is in a better weapon than my own.
*****

Speaking of BS, it doesn't bother me, and probably most everyone isn't bothered, but someone, somewhere really don't like the swearing. Besides, it is a rule on E-budo (the reason the filter doesn't filter that particular word is because there are many instances in which it is part of another term in another language, e.g., shito-ryu).

Besides, there are so many ways to disguise it, it doesn't need to be written just so.:D Just like the s**t-eating grin my smilie has on his kisser.:D
******

Remember, breathe, center, and relax. That may sound simple, but try it. This probably takes longer to master than all kata in any MA. These can be done, but if you don't master the principle of relaxing in the worst possible, seemingly unextricable situation, the rest probably won't matter. An example would be: a punch thrown at you which somes so close as to feel the air, but the fist stops just short of your nose, and you don't blink, that is pretty much it. And if it does reach your nose and bloodies it, and you still don't blink, you ARE the master.

Relaxation. Under used, but of prime importance. Some refer to this as being "soft." Either way, it is something to work on.

I hope my rambling, repetitive scribbles were of some help.

Mark

Kevin73
13th May 2001, 14:57
Your flexibility is related to your neurology. All stretching does is rewires that to a new level. We use warm ups to regain that level, but in a fight situation your body dumps enough chemicals in to achieve that same degree without a warm up.

bungadude
20th May 2001, 16:19
My first thought regarding the cold start into a sudden onset situation is that the style of art that has been trained could be very important. Those that train high kicking styles, or very gymnastic styles would tend to be more at risk than those that train "taijutsu in a closet."

Those that train small motion, close in fighting, low kicks, joint lock grappling might be less likely to suffer from cold start injuries. And as Mark F points out, breathing, centering, and relaxing are probably the key.

In the art in which I train, Bujinkan budo taijutsu, there is an emphasis on ukemi. In the dojo we warm up. Outside the dojo, at work for instance, there really isn't any warm up more than the usual walking around movements. There have been occasions where I have tripped, or have had the base of support moved out from underneath me. Without warm up, without thinking, I have found myself saved by my training, taking what would ordinarily have injured me, and afterward realizing I was unscathed. (Probably pretty darn lucky too!)

will szlemko
21st May 2001, 07:39
Hi all,

Training for cold start is an interesting thing. Where I train if the class is only yudansha we will often say something like, "you have 30 seconds to loosen up." Other times we will just start. We only do this with yudansha as we believe that by that level you should be familiar with your own body and its limitations. Technqiues that you need a true warm up and stretch period to be able to do are probably not in your best interests as far as self defense goes. While it may be fun to sometimes practice these techniques I would advise against making them a large part of your repertoire. Body shifting, relax, center, and breathe. If you do these you need not worry about self defense. As Mark said this is much harder than it sounds.

will

kusanku
21st May 2001, 09:28
In the older types of practice of the Chinese/Okinawan Kempo type, of ch'uan fa/karate, n e picks one kata, most probably the first one in the system, and does it thrice per day, at least, no matter what else one does.

As this kata, sometimes sanchin, sometimes seisan, sometimes naihanchi, sometimes another, usually involves techniques of body conditoning and close in self defense, ones body should in three years time be prepared by doing, to go from zero to combat instantly.

Those arts not using kata use other means such as Will mentioned, hello Will, Vengel here:-), I remember your very good kata app posts on AMAKS,as starting workouts, after dan rank, without warmups.

While, and this to Mark, I would nt ever start a judo workout with no warmup, nevertheless it is good tobe able to go all out with none if one has to.Longer you practice, more this is possile of course the judo goshinjutsu waza are not such as to necessarily require a whole lot of stretching prior to execution, or one would hope not.

I fully agree that one should not prepare for defense using high kicks or other techniques that could and often will result in serious or light injury.What is the point of that?You have an attacker already trying to hurt you, why do it to yourself?

It s generally a good idea, as a friend of mine from Okinawa showed me once, to have at least a couple of good, fast, simple moves that work in most situations ready that can be done right now with no warmup.

Yes, it won't be as good as with a warmup.But you have to live with that.Hopefully the attacker will be surpised that you even react at all instead of just falling down.

Anyhow, that's two yen worth on it.

Soulend
24th May 2001, 19:51
It would seem that in such a surprising and stressful attack, endorphines would be dumped into your system and would mask a lot of the pain associated with hyperextention of joints, muscle strain, and the like.

Of course, once the fight is over these things will be felt...but if you're still alive to feel the pain of your exertions, that is a good thing IMHO.

neb
1st June 2001, 05:49
A student in my Tae Kwon Do clas had a similar question, my instructor had a fairly logical response, though he doesnt have any degrees in physiology or human kinetics or anything.

Whenever you practice of course you should stretch, for obvious reasons, your muscles are cold and need to watrm up...

But if you are suddenly jumped you become filled with adrenalin, basically you become afraid, or whatever you want to call it. Adrenalin warms up your muscles, loosens you up... The human body was designed to react to situations instantly, and prepare itself to engage in physical activity.

What your body wasn't designed for was strenuous activity without any direct need or danger, unless you stretch of course.

Anyway I know I don't know all the technical details, but this explanation seems pretty clear and makes sense to me anyway.

Joe Kras
28th June 2001, 20:52
I think Chris Beaver's reply basically summed it up when he said...


Whenever you practice of course you should stretch, for obvious reasons, your
muscles are cold and need to watrm up...

But if you are suddenly jumped you become filled with adrenalin, basically you
become afraid, or whatever you want to call it. Adrenalin warms up your muscles,
loosens you up... The human body was designed to react to situations instantly,
and prepare itself to engage in physical activity.

What your body wasn't designed for was strenuous activity without any direct
need or danger, unless you stretch of course.

I mostly agree with the above, with one caveat (see below). I just wanted to "flesh out" some of the particulars of what happens when you initiate a "fight or flight" response when you are suddenly attacked.

The fight or flight response is thought to be mediated by the hypothalmus, which sends signals down the reticular formation and spinal cord to cause massive sympathetic system discharge. Compounds such as epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine are released into your bloodstream.
Acute effects of such release include:
-increased arterial pressure
-increased blood flow to skeletal muscles
-decreased blood flow to less needed areas(gut,kidneys,etc.)
-increased rates of cellular metabolism
-increased blood glucose concentration
-increased muscle strength
-decreased fine motor control of muscular activity
-increased mental activity
-increased rate of blood coagulation
(above adapted from Guyton's "Textbook of Medical Physiology")

So, I agree that one should always warm up before working out (in the dojo or out). "30 seconds to warm up" doesn't cut it, and will end up with a higher rate of injuries occurring. I know of no evidence to suggest that doing so will increase your agility in an acute attack situation by conditioning your body in any way.

Now for the caveat...

An acute release of catecholamines (epi, norepi, etc.) will rapidly increase your ability to deal with an acute situation, but this response is not instantaneous. It takes about a minute for blood to circulate, and many of the effects depend on catecholamines released into the blood circulating to receptors in the end organs effected. So during the first minute your body will be rapidly "ramping up" to a full response, but your muscles won't be as flexible as if you warmed up prior. As others have pointed out, this usually only results in sprains and sore muscles later.

***OPINION MODE ON***
I believe that there exists some "optimum" amount of release of catecholamines during an acute confrontation. I feel that the "scared witless/unable to respond" response probably is facilitated by too much catecholamines, and one would ideally release just enough catechols to get rapidly "loosened up" without becoming frozen into inaction.

I would postulate that modulating our hypothalmus is what a lot of our training is trying to get us to do (in terms of being able to respond to a surprise attack). I believe it was in his book "Sword and Brush" that Dave Lowry describes his sensei barging in on him while he was seated on the toilet and attacking him with a shinai (or was it a boken?). In any event, I think that part of what Mr. Lowry's sensei was trying to train him to be able to do was to modulate the response from his hypothalmus. I think he was also trying to impart in him a heightened sense of awareness and preparedness, but both of those things would probably allow a decreased sympathetic nervous system discharge, too.

Joe Kras

Simon Ford-Powell
28th June 2001, 21:17
Just a thought. I often "warm up" my class of high grades by fighting - really slow - no power, no high kicks, no completing throws, no pressure applied with locks etc. Physically a safe start to the warm-up, but mentally the first thing they have to face is a punch. I know it's not the same thing but it's a lot closer than jogging on the spot, press-ups, stretching and the like. Mark's points on centering and developing the "quiet mind" as I like to think of it, are absolutey right and should be practiced all the time, all day, in every daily situation. That's easy then ;)

NoMan
29th June 2001, 06:25
"My question revolves around the cold start and how to or can you train for it. You are walking down a path and are jumped real sudden like. If you train with a warmed-up body is there a real chance that the range of motions that you respond with could cause you to basically take yourself out? The majority of my injuries could be directly attributed to not being properly warmed up and these include the real painful, sudden, debilitating variety (groin pull)."

From what I've found, your body has certain limiting factors, within both strength and flexibility. With strength, the body has a neurological feedback loop that prevents you from doing exercises that are too heavy, neurologically limiting your strength even if you are physiologically capable of doing it. The same applies for stretching.

According to Daniel Alix: (a quick note here, I'm not exactly sure how reliable this source is. It's purely speculation,)

"Your body has a natural "resetting" of its muscle length and tension. One way to "reset" this point is through (careful) ballistic stretching early in the morning. Raise your leg like your kicking in a happy medium, so that your using momentum, but not just simply throwing your leg up. Start off low. You shouldn't be feeling a big stretch in your leg, but you should feel the nervous reflexes begin kicking in, where the muscle stretching begins to tighten. As you keep doing it, you'll notice your legs can get a little higher each time before you can feel the reflex. Do a few sets like this on various kicks to reset your nervous reflex."

Joe Kras
29th June 2001, 18:43
Mike Ryan added a post about stretching, which advocated a ballistic stretch to increase flexability.

While I don't consider myself an expert in this area, I do know a few things, and more importantly , where to find good info.

The following is excerpted from SPORTS INJURIES-DIAGNOSIS AND MANAGEMENT,Christopher M. Norris, Butterworth Heinemann, 1998, 2nd ed., ISBN# 0-7506-2873-1.
--------------------------------------------------
TECHNIQUES OF FLEXIBILITY
Five methods of stretching are generally recognized, static, ballistic, active, and two proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation(PNF) techniques.

During static stretching, a muscle is stretched to the point of discomfort and held there for an extended period. Ballistic stretching involves taking the limb to its end of movement range, and adding repetitive bouncing movements, usually for a period of about 30 seconds (Hardy and Jones, 1986). This method is no longer as popular as it was, because of the suggestion that injury may result from abrupt stretching of soft tissues (Etnyre and Lee, 1987). Although not recommended for regular training, ballistic stretching does have a place in the final stages of rehabilitation. Active stretching involves pulling a limb into full inner range so that the antagonist muscle is stretched passively while the agonist is strengthened. This type of stretch is important when correcting muscle imbalance. The inner range contraction is used to shorten a lengthened (lax) muscle while the shortened muscle is stretched using a functionally relevant movement.

PNF techniques have been adopted by the sporting world from neurological physiotherapy treatments. These techniques use alternating contractions and relaxations of muscles and capitalize on the various muscle reflexes to achieve a greater level of relaxation during the stretch.

Two PNF techniques are used, contract-relax (CR) and contract-relax-agonist-contract(CRAC). The CR technique involves lengthening a muscle until a comfortable stretch is felt. From this position, the muscle is isometrically contracted, and held for a set period. The muscle is relaxed, and then taken to a new lengthened position until the full stretch is again felt by the subject. The rationale behind the CR method is that the contracted muscle will relax as a result of autogenic inhibition, as the GTO (Golgi Tendon Organ) fires to inhibit tension. Some authors argue that a maximal isometric is needed to initiate relaxation through the GTO mechanism (Janda, 1992). Others recommend the use of minimal isometric contractions (Lewit, 1991) which seem more appropriate in situations where pain is present.

With the CRAC method, the muscle is stretched as above, but in the final stages of the stretch, the opposing muscle groups are isometrically contracted as the stretch is applied, to make use of reciprocal inhibition of the agonist, and reduce its tension. Of these techniques, PNF stretches have been shown to be more effective (Holt, Travis, and Okita, 1970; Cornelius and Hinson, 1980; Holt and Smith, 1983; Etnyre and Abraham, 1986) with CRAC methods generally being better than CR.
------------------------------------------------

As I said, I'm not an expert, but the above also jives with what I've read elsewhere. So in our dojo we generally use PNF stretches.

I think increased flexibility will decrease your chance of injury in a cold start, and regular stretching increases your overall flexibility. That being said, there is also some increased risk of injury if you stretch the ligaments surrounding joints too much.

Joe Kras

NoMan
6th July 2001, 03:47
I'm definetly no expert on flexibility, but I'll quote Dr. Hatfield on this.

"Everyone whines about ballistic stress, I'm here to tell you, EVERYTHING in life is ballistic!"

Ballistic weight training is used to reset the neurological setpoint for strength, (your body is very conservative on its imposing strength demands), and you can alter it neurologically. (In addition, ballistic weight training is one of the best ways to increase the strength of the connecting ligaments and tendons), and I believe the same can be applied for stretching. When you kick, it is ballistic. When you do plyometrics, that is ballistic stress. When you fall, that is balistic stress. How much static stress do we encounter in our everyday lives, particularly in emergency situations? Doesn't it make sense to train the body as we will be dealing with it in an encounter, training as realisticically, while SAFELY training at the same time?

The important thing, (in either weight training or stretching), is knowing how to do it properly. Stretching and tearing the Z-band isn't the smartest way to get flexible, (the scar tissue build up will limit flexibility), but it can be done safely. I went and researched it a bit, and I'm posting this at a friend's house, so I don't have my material with me. (Don't want to misquote people.) I'll post it when I get back to my materials. :)

Anyways, the old archaic ballistic training methods are dangerous, as are lots of old ways of doing things. Partner assisted stretching can be very dangerous if done improperly. Properly done, very effective. Warming up your leg, and slowly kicking it to the beginning point of resistence, isn't going to tear your muscles. (Unless someone here trains in kicking without actually throwing kicks?)

Steve C
6th July 2001, 09:18
Originally posted by NoMan
Ballistic weight training is used to reset the neurological setpoint for strength, (your body is very conservative on its imposing strength demands), and you can alter it neurologically.

I've never heard about this - can anyone give me a description of what kind of exercises this entails?

Steve

NoMan
7th July 2001, 02:19
Here's all my info on this, it's going to get long, maybe boring (any other PFT's in here?), but hang in there.

(All information taken from the International Sports Sciences Assocation. Visit http://www.issaonline.com for more information.)

Ballistic weight training is defined as, "Life, and especially sports, is full of ballistic episodes, and it’s important to 1) prevent such episodes from causing injury (microtrauma or macrotrauma), and, paradoxically, 2) make your movements more ballistic in sports where such will provide an advantage (e.g., throwing a 100 mph fastball). Following a carefully periodized, highly specialized training, nutritional and supplementation regimen will accomplish these goals.

Now, let's get into the neurological things affecting strength, (and flexibility). When a nerve carries an impulse of sufficient magnitude down to the muscle cells which make up the motor unit, the myofibrils contract or shorten. Each myofibril does not do this by degrees, but rather contracts totally. It responds with an all-or-none reaction. In other words, a unit is either completely relaxed or fully contracted. It is never partially contracted. Both a muscle fiber (including its myofibrils) and the entire motor unit of which it is a part, respond to a nerve stimulus with the all-or-none reaction. Not all of the motor units of a muscle are activated during any given movement.

We can exercise a gradation of response by increasing or decreasing the amount of chemo-electrical impulse to the muscle. That’s why you can lift a fork to your mouth or curl a heavy dumbbell. Both are similar movements, but curling a fork involves only those motor units with a very low excitation threshold, while curling a dumbbell requires many more motor units.

However, our body has the ability to generate more force than our connecting tendons, ligaments, synergist, and stabilizers, are capable of handling, without causing massive micro/macro trauma. To prevent this, various proprioceptors, the sensory organs found in muscles and tendons, provide information about body movement and position, and protect muscle and connective tissue. The Golgi tendon organ is imbedded in tendon tissue and can be viewed as a safety valve. Increasing levels of muscular contraction result in feedback to the nervous system from the Golgi tendon organ. When tension becomes too great – greater than the brain can recall – this signal inhibits the contraction stimulus, thereby reducing the likelihood of injury. This protective response is called “the feedback loop.”

Another built-in protective function of the neuromuscular system is the muscle spindle, a proprioceptor found in the belly of a muscle. In contrast to the Golgi tendon organ, which is in series with the force plane of the muscle, the muscle spindle is in parallel with the force plane. The action is similar to that of the Golgi tendon organ in that it protects against overload and injury in what is known as the “stretch reflex” action (example: the knee-jerk response used by physicians to test the muscle’s response adequacy).

The stretch reflex serves as a regulatory mechanism that enables the muscle to adjust automatically to differences in load and length changes without having to receive messages from higher order centers (the brain) of the nervous system. Other proprioceptors are located in and around all the joints of the body. These sensors provide constant information to the nervous system regarding the special relationship of the joint to the rest of the body: movement, position, speed, etc..

Now, in your bodies grand design, all these limiting factors were imposed so that you don't injure yourself. However, they were set conservatively low. The way ALL these neurological setpoints work is what the brain remembers you being able to do. For instance, training to failure may be counter-productive in this respect. If you fail to make a rep, your brain WILL remember that, and it will mark it down for future reference. The more you miss it, the more likely you will in the future. Same applies for kicking, another proprioceptor guarded reflex. If you don't train by kicking, your brain WILL NOT know that you possess the ability to do it in ballistic movements, no matter what your static flexibility level is. I've met people who can do splits, but can't kick at their head level. Conversely, I've met people who can kick and hold their legs at high levels, but cannot do splits. No matter if your muscles are capable of either lifting the weight, or stretching to a certain length, if your neurological system says they can't do it, they WILL NOT do it.

The type of stretching used to accomplish this is "ballistic" stretching, normally called Dynamic stretching. Used primarily by athletes who need to increase their range of motion for sports skills, dynamic stretching involves swinging the arm and or legs in a controlled manner. Various patterns can be utilized. When stretching dynamically, care must be taken not to exceed the present range of motion for the joint(s) being stretched, or injury could result. Several methods can be used to ensure the safety of this type of stretching.

First, an even, controlled rhythm must be established, with swinging movements initially well within the current range of motion, and then gradually increase the amplitude of the movement until you are at the desired level of tension at the endpoint of the movement. Second, the stretch reflex can be averted by stopping the moving limb prior to the target joint reaching the end of its range of motion. As an example, during a standing dynamic hamstring stretch, the individual can swing (kick) his or her leg into an outstretched hand, which stops the foot at the end of each swing, prior to the extreme range of the hip joints. The nervous system will anticipate this, and as a result, the stretch reflex will be minimized or even eliminated. Please bear in mind that these are specialized movements, and care must be taken not to exceed a joints natural range of motion.

[HR]

Let's look at what composes up strength. This little graph here defines EVERY physiological movement that a human can possibly do.

http://www.issatrainer.com/members/CFT_Course/images/STRENGTHEPS.JPG

Now, on this little graph, we have seven factors that effect the strength of a given movement. Let's look at them.

FACTOR ONE: The Angle of “Q”

Look at the straight line tangent to the upward curve (concentric strength). Measure the angle. This is called the “Q” angle, and it is the definition of starting strength. The steeper the line the greater the number of muscle fibers you’ve simultaneously recruited in the movement.

FACTOR TWO: The Angle of “A”

Now draw several tangent lines along the length of the upward curve. Measure the angle of each tangent, and compare each angle to the preceding one. There are three possibilities:

1.) Each subsequent angle gets smaller


2.) Each subsequent angle stays the same


3.) Each subsequent angle gets bigger

Clearly, in the example below, each subsequent angle becomes more and more acute.

THREE PERMUTATIONS OF ANGLE A

If the angle of each successive tangent becomes greater and greater, you’re going faster and faster in your application of greater and greater force. If each angle stays the same, this means that your speed is increasing linearly as you apply greater and greater force. If the angles diminish from one angle to the next, your rate of speed is diminishing as you approach your maximum force output. In sport, the only acceptable technique is to attempt to make each subsequent angle bigger. I call this technique “compensatory acceleration." This sort of positive acceleration while increasing force output is functionally impossible to attain in the final third of the movement while lifting weights in a traditional fashion. This is because you must slow the weight down in anticipation of lockout. But you nonetheless try in the interest of 1) improving the quality of your overload stress, and 2) increasing the time under maximum tension (TTI — Time/Tension Index). Notice I said MAXIMUM tension. Moving the weight slowly means you’re not MAXIMIZING the tension developed by your muscles, and therefore the quality of overload it receives is commensurably lessened.

Figure 4-3
Angle A



FACTOR THREE: Force

What’s the maximum amount of force output you produced during any given movement? This is called Fmax. (Refer to Figure 4-4). I think it’s fairly obvious that in most sports endeavors you’d like your force output to be as high as possible. Of course, this doesn’t hold true when you’re trying to do a delicate movement like a jump shot or a putt.

FACTOR FOUR: Time

Referring again to Figure 4-2, measure how long it takes from the beginning of upwards (concentric) movement to exert maximum force (Fmax). This is called Tmax, and usually it’s appropriate to make Tmax as short as possible. Again, jump shots and putts withstanding.

FACTOR FIVE: The Relationship Between Time and Force

Now, remember back to high school science class when your teacher told you that…

p = fd / t
(Power is equal to force times distance per unit of time).


In similar fashion, Fmax divided by Tmax is the definition of explosive strength. If starting strength (the “Q” angle) is your ability to turn on as many motor units as possible instantaneously, then explosive strength is your ability to leave them turned on! The two are NOT the same! And the training required to maximize each is not the same either. Collectively they’re referred to as “speed-strength.”

FACTOR SIX: The Relationship Between Limit Strength and Fmax

In any sports movement, Tmax is so short that it’s not possible to get all of your motor units turned on. Not even close! Only powerlifting tests one’s limit strength. NO other sport does because of the time constraint.

Former Soviet scientists worshipped the relationship between limit strength and Fmax. And for good cause. They believed that nothing should ever be done to cause an increase in the distance between Fmax and limit strength. They believed that the definition of a great athlete was one whose Fmax came close to his/her limit strength. They believed that, in all the world of sport, speed is king!

LIMIT STRENGTH AND F-MAX RELATIONSHIP

This is a phenomenal concept! Understand that simply working limit strength is NOT the way for an athlete to become great! In fact it’d slow you down if carried to the extreme. The coaches of yesteryear were right when they wouldn’t allow their players to lift for fear that doing so would foul up their “touch” (skill), make ‘em muscle-bound or slow them down. They were right. The reason is that continually hammering limit strength – your 1-RM (which was pretty much all that the early weight lifters knew how to do) – will eventually result in muscle being synthesized beyond the point where one’s strength-to-weight ratio is greatest. Added strength, when carried to this extreme, almost invariably means added weight, slower movement speed, inability to achieve positive acceleration or a steep “Q” angle, let alone greater explosive strength.

So, this being the case, we must give consideration to the concept of “functional strength,” or the amount of limit strength necessary to maximize Fmax without causing an increase in the difference between Fmax and limit strength. Simply put, one’s strength-to-weight ratio is very similar to one’s functional strength requirements, and it is generally different from sport-to-sport because the demands of each sport are different.

Before you jump all over me for making such a brash statement, let me modify it a bit and acknowledge that in sports such as archery, bowling, curling and other similar activities, the concept of strength-to-weight ratio has far less relevance than it does for (say) shot putters or high jumpers. Or bodybuilders, for that matter, whose chief competition objective is to get massive muscle irrespective of movement efficiency.

FACTOR SEVEN: The Amortization Phase

Picture this: A pitcher throwing a 100 m.p.h. fast ball by rearing back with his arm, holding the position until all of his inner forces are summoned, and with great Herculean effort hurls the ball. Will it go 100 mph? Not a chance! The total body movement that’s involved in pitching that fast requires heavy reliance on stretch reflex and tissue viscoelasticity in one’s shoulder muscles adding to the speed of the push off the rubber and the violent twisting of the body all sequentially performed such that the force imparted to the ball comes from a “summation of forces.”

So, it is critical in most sports that you work hard to 1) make it possible to maximize the sum of all forces involved in producing maximum force output, while 2) keeping yourself uninjured! The very thought of turning the amortization into a checkmark-sharp direction change is enough to make one cringe! It is the culprit that’s responsible for many a sports career being ended. It’s called (shudder) “ballistic” stress!

Doesn’t scare me! Not me! I sometimes feel like sneering in the faces of the folk who warn against producing ballistic stresses in training. All LIFE is ballistic! Sport is VERY ballistic, and if you’re to sum the forces successfully without getting injured, you’d better learn how to TRAIN ballistically! It’ll prepare you to sum the forces and it’ll prepare you to accept them as well! There are many safe and productive techniques to accomplish this, not the least of which are plyometric training of various sorts.

ACK! Got to go, be back in an hour to finish this big long spiel!

bungadude
8th July 2001, 22:50
Wow! Very cogently presented. And very true. For maximizing speed and tissue tolerance to high speed deceleration, ballistic (plyometric) training is very important. And NoMan was very clear about how it must be carefully done. This is the end stage of rehabilitation for sports injuries in PT, when control is optimal, the tissues are ready to accept these forces in a modified manner. This is what returns athletes to competitive function.

NoMan
9th July 2001, 02:09
Another form of ballistic training outside of plyometric training is what we call "compensatory acceleration". It works like this.

The formula for figuring out how much "power" a given move has is P=FD/T. Or, Power equals Force times Distance divided by time. So, let's see. If we take a squat, where a person can squat 500 lbs. The distance is 2 ft., and it takes him 3 seconds to perform this lift. Added up, we get 500 x 2/3. That's 333.33 for our force generated. If this same person lowers the weight down to 400 lbs., and it takes him 1 second to do the lift, we get this formula. 400 x 2/2. That's 400 for our force generated. If he lowers it down to 100 lbs., and it takes him .5 seconds to do the lift, it's 100 x 2/.5.

Let's look at a variety of weights and times, and see what we find out. (Illustrative purposes only, individual strength graphs will vary, and most won't be in these kinds of increments. Also, individual muscle fiber/enzymatic compositions will change what percentage of 1rpm you have to use.)

100 x 2/.5 = 400
250 x 2/1 = 500
300 x 2/1 = 600
400 x 2/2 = 400
500 x 2/3 = 333.33

This seems odd to most people, that the maximum amount of force is being generated at the 60% 1rpm. Most people stress the importance of heavy weights. But, there's a reason for that. Most people lift weights like this.

100 x 2/3 = 66.66
200 x 2/3 = 133.33
300 x 2/3 = 200
400 x 2/3 = 266.66
500 x 2/3 = 333.33

The key here on the lighter (60%) weight is to EXPLODE with that weight. Think about a plyometric jump. How much good would it really do if you didn't explode upward? Hardly any. The same applies here. You want to lift the weight explosively, yet controlled. Now, the big question, "Do I have research to back this up?" Yes, I do.

Let's look at where the idea that strength training was bad for speed came from.

(Stone and Kroll, 1978)

"In most athletic activities, high speed is an important factor. The strength training for athletics should therefore be performed at high speed if the skill is performed at high speeds. The slow speed strength developed by resistance training is primarily transferable to athletic movement only at the slower speed at which it was developed."

You can tell by looking at Olympic sprinters legs that weights aren't hurting their speed. However, let's look a test done by Newton, 1996. This test took seventeen bodybuilders who did the regular bench press, with a second group who did what the scientists called a "bench throw". The bench throw is a very interesting idea. The scientists made a bench press rack so that the bar could be thrown upwards, out of the bodybuilders hands, and caught by a safety mechanism. The study measured a variety of factors, a few of them being average and peak concentric velocity, peak power, and average concentric force and power. What they found was this.

Average Concentric Velocity: The group with the "throw" had an average of 27% higher ratings than the non-throw group.

Peak Concentric Velocity: The throw movement was 36% higher in maximum speed over the conventional bench press.

Average Concentric Force: The throw movement was 35% higher than the conventional bench press.

Average Power Output: The throw movement was at an amazing 70% higher output than the bench press group.

So, what does that mean? The bench throw group were activating more muscle fibers, and not only activating more muscle fibers, they were leaving them turned on for longer! That means? Improved strength and speed!

Compensatory acceleration works exactly the same, (but no throwing the weight). You forcefully accelerate the weight to the top part of the range of motion. This is the same effect that accomodating resistence machines and variable resistence machines have been trying to do, compensating for a joint's mechanical advantage by changing the resistences in accordance to the improving leverages throught a movement. The difference is, compensatory acceleration isn't as "foreign" a movement as are the machine variations of it, which are considered to be very strange to your nervous system, hence, not as sport-specific.

bungadude
10th July 2001, 02:39
This sounds as though there is support for specificity in training. Train with high resistance at slow velocities, and you'll be able to move heavy things slowly. Train with speed, and you'll be able to move quickly.

Have you come across any studies that might support the idea that training with lower resistance, and increased speed, which generates increased force as you say (and I agree), actually improves a functional outcome? I'm asking whether weight training done this way, rather than a sport specific activity being trained, can be shown to improve the sport specific activity. Does my question make sense?

NoMan
10th July 2001, 09:35
I seem to get what your question is saying. Dr. Mel Siff and Yari Verkoshansky discussed this in their book, "Supertraining: Special Strength Training for Sports Excellence." (A recommend buy.) They called this the "Principle of Central Nervous Control". (The ISSA calls this a combination of two principles, the SAID principle, {Specific Adaptation by Imposed Demands}, and the Specificity Principle {Doing movements that closest relate to your sport}.) They say that, "all patterned activity and computerized instructions to the nervous and endocrine systems come from the highest command and integrating center in humans." Basically, what they say is that too many people lift weights and train totally seperate from what they do.

For instance, most people seem to think that martial artist should be able to run miles and miles straight. Well, that's called "linear sub-maximal aerobic endurance". Martial arts, be it punching, kicking, trapping, or grappling, is "non-linear maximum force output testing glycolytic endurance". What does that mean? If you spend hours a day running, you're not training your body the way it should be, (for martial arts anyway). Ever heard or read a grappler say something like, "Guys who can run marathons can't last five minutes on the mat?" Well, there is some truth to this. Here's the breakdown of the terms.

Non-linear: A linear activity is one that is done at a steady pace, such as running, cycling, etc. A non-linear one is more like boxing or tennis, where you move around at varying speeds randomly.

Aerobic: Means "with oxygen", but more specifically, refers to whenever your body begins adding oxygen to the lactic acid to produce ATP. Glycolytic refers to the stage when you are using glycogen as the primary fuel. All stages of cellular fuel are intertwined, (ATP/CP, glycolytic, and aerobic), but, some stages are more important than others for certain events. A shotputter doesn't need to have aerobic endurance.

Now, why's it counter-productive? Well, your body only has a limited number of recuperative energies, and a very delicate enzymatic composition. A marathon runner doesn't do well on the 100 yard dash. If you are doing such massive amounts of aerobics that you leave little energy for weight training and martial arts training, you won't achieve maximum results.

Now then, the same applies for weight training. You should be performing movements that relate closest to the movements of the sport. This is where machines fail greatly. Their movements are so weird to the neurological system that there is very little transference over to functional strength. The Russians knew this in the 70's and 80's, and the ISSA trains everyone from Olympic athlete's, professional athlete's, to Mrs. Jane, and it's been proven time and time again.

Steve C
10th July 2001, 09:43
Thanks, NoMan.

Sounds like you can do something similar to the bench throw by doing explosive half-height pressups. Which, I've been told, is great for working on punching power...

Anyone like to suggest some other exercises that could work?

Steve

bungadude
11th July 2001, 05:52
Michael, went to your web site tonight. Was very impressed. Looked through your info on body building theory and the pages on myths. Right on. Thanks for the info on the supertraining book.

Anyone looking for the web address, look under NoMan's signature.

lgusaas
11th July 2001, 05:59
Originally posted by Steve C

Anyone like to suggest some other exercises that could work?

Rather than recommend specific exercises, I would recommend reading Charles Staley's book, The Science of Martial Arts Training. You can also check out his website,
http://www.myodynamics.com
It has many excellent articles on martial arts training.

I find Staley's advice on training to be the best I've ever come across. I very seldom disagree with him.

Larry Gusaas

Blue
12th July 2001, 03:36
Let us not forget the concept of no mind.:confused:

NoMan
13th July 2001, 13:50
Originally posted by Blue
Let us not forget the concept of no mind.:confused:

I don't really understand that. If you're talking about psychological relations to strength/speed, yes, that's why several pro-athlete's spend big money on hypnotherapists. We use two terms to state that, one is called "limit strength", the other "absolute strength".

Limit Strength:

What your 1rpm would be on an average day, all natural.

Absolute Strength:

If you were using any variety of factors to bolster your performance, (hypnotism, steroids, stimulants, anger, you had to do a lift to get Britney Spears out on a date, your life was in danger). Some are considered more ethical than others, and some are very healthy, some aren't.

Blue
13th July 2001, 22:38
Actually I was refering to a type of highly effective, progressive mediation in which a state of void (no mind) may be reached. The results are quite evident if done correctly. The inner clarity is what brings rapid instinctive responsiveness. The concept of no mind really has no scientific explaination to the best of my knowledge but to offer some insight as to what neurological significance it may have I would have to lean towards the involvment of dopamine in the limbic system of the brain. The drug(natural) is concieved in this system and distributed to receptors which in turn, distribute the drug to our CNS. and so on. The limbic system is the most primitive part of the brain. Dopamine is responsible for the triggering and amplification of feelings and senses of a primal nature. Why are predators of the animal kingdom hard to hunt? (Without a gun of course). Being in a state of no mind is like being able to talk to nature (in a sense). "Doctors" might say that one may have an unusually slow BP or HR. "Practitioners" might say that one us in harmony. etc....

However it is not very commonly practiced. Go figure...