PDA

View Full Version : Empi = Wansu?



Maverick
7th May 2001, 01:07
Is Empi still Wansu? Why all the changes?

Hank Irwin
7th May 2001, 04:43
I think purely Japanization. Wansu is empi, Seisan is hangetsu, why, I don't care myself. I think much comes from what you really know(the Jap masters) of any given kata. If you do not know the "authentic" bunkai for a given kata you will never know it completely. You can make all the educated guesses you like and that's just what it will be, a guess. I think the Japanese changed almost every kata they learned by way of Okinawa. Almost all Japanese karate has extremely low stances for instance. Overemphasized, overly dramatic. The Japanese bastardized karate then "recreated it" as they do with everything they covet. But, today Okinawan/Chinese Karate Do is recognized for what it truly is, THE epitome of Martial Arts.

Jussi Häkkinen
7th May 2001, 11:24
Enpi, not empi. =)

There are two common ways (AFAIK) to perform Wansu. One way is the one that you go up and down (Enpi, flying swallow). Other stays on "level" more. After seeing both ways many times, I think that both origin to same root.

Bunkai? Well, I'm beginning to think that there is no "original bunkai" and searching for it is pretty unuseful.
Every style has their bunkai. It is useful to search for "founder's bunkai" and compare it to the bunkai of sister styles and to the ways other disciples of founder's teacher do it, but going deeper is sometimes pretty hazardous and can cause "this is the way it was ORIGINALLY made" -claims.

zach
20th May 2001, 20:38
Havent kata gone through enough changes in every style to alter interpretation? Plus; wouldn't having an 'offical bunkai' sort of limit the range of interpretation in kata? I mean, I dont deny that bunkai is probably lacking from alot of training, but I don't think limiting it helps that. If anything it hinders it.

-Zach Zinn

Hank Irwin
20th May 2001, 22:43
We live in a day and age where the pronounciation of things is more important than the science of it all. Most say it is the interpretation of kata, no, it is the learning of bunkai. Kamae serve as "symbols" of what the bunkai is. As much in the same way the Chinese did "Tiger climbs mountain", "Dragon whips tail" and such. You can say the words but if you don't know the symbolizim you don't know squat. In American Korodie it doesn't exist and if it does it ain't American. Americans and Japanese the like have this much in common, they think they know what it's all about, but they don't, so they make things up right along with there rank. If you are bobbing up and down between steps in Wansu/Empi you are screwing up. Bobbing causes your center of balance to be un-stable. The rising and lowering is of importance for sure, bringing opponent up upseting his/her balance and then smashing them to the ground. This is not the bobbing you see in kata, otherwise it is being done incorrect. Bunkai is as old as fighting is. Without it there is no kata, only waza. But what is kata? I have a quote from Oyata Sensei about kata I will try to find next page.

Joe Paden
21st May 2001, 15:49
Hello, I have a question about what was discussed about original bunkai.
I was informed that bunkai means to break something down, examine it. Is
this wrong? If so, what does it mean? If it isn't wrong, wouldn't bunkai be an ever
changing thing as we continue to break it down? As always, just wondering.

Joe Paden,
Maryland, USA

Victor
21st May 2001, 16:42
Hi Jussi, First a quick thought on spelling.

Empi/Enpi, I use Nakayama's Best Karate as my source of spelling and they render it as Empi. Although I have a freind in Japan who uses Enpi.......

Joe, you ask: "I was informed that bunkai means to break something down, examit it. Is this wrong? If so, what does it mean? If it isn't wrong, wouldn't bunkai be an ever changing thing as we continue to break it down? "

I believe by one definition you are quite correct.

Interestingly "Bunkai" isn't an Okinawan term, and originally Okinawan Karate didn't use or teach 'bunkai'. But as an import from Japan in some Okinawan circles it has taken root.

As I understand it, originally one just practiced kata. Dan Smith (of the Seibukan) has described how if you wern't doing it correctly a senior would show you what it felt like when properly applied, and thus the more mistakes the more application you would learn.

I suspect in the Okinawan roots, discussion about almost anything wasn't done. Instead it was hands on without words mapping the process.

In such case, there would be no words for a founder's 'bunkai' just the dents <grin> from the physical process of learning, when shared.

In that so much Okinawna Karate was not mapped, there really is no 'right' source except for whatever your instructor themselves learnt and share.

A more modern working usage of bunkai, is that you can find more and more application potential in any movement, and in that case the potential is a growing process.

Yet potential is just that, perhaps a glimpse of kindergarden 201 (the kata being kindergarden 101).
This implies that there is much more to go, something I heartily believe.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

zach
21st May 2001, 17:33
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
We live in a day and age where the pronounciation of things is more important than the science of it all. Most say it is the interpretation of kata, no, it is the learning of bunkai. Kamae serve as "symbols" of what the bunkai is. As much in the same way the Chinese did "Tiger climbs mountain", "Dragon whips tail" and such. You can say the words but if you don't know the symbolizim you don't know squat. In American Korodie it doesn't exist and if it does it ain't American. Americans and Japanese the like have this much in common, they think they know what it's all about, but they don't, so they make things up right along with there rank. If you are bobbing up and down between steps in Wansu/Empi you are screwing up. Bobbing causes your center of balance to be un-stable. The rising and lowering is of importance for sure, bringing opponent up upseting his/her balance and then smashing them to the ground. This is not the bobbing you see in kata, otherwise it is being done incorrect. Bunkai is as old as fighting is. Without it there is no kata, only waza. But what is kata? I have a quote from Oyata Sensei about kata I will try to find next page.

Erm, our version doesnt have much moving up and down anyway, I agree fully with what your'e saying here...but shouldn't it be an adaptive skill, certain moves lend themselves to certain types of interpretation to be sure, and there's a right way and a wrong way (i would think) to find the 'symbols' in the kamae...though I don't claim to know what it is; but I think saying theres one universally better bunkai is sort of misleading...is that what youre saying? I fully agree about the center of gravity thing, but being a sucky martial artist is being a sucky martial artist, I know the kind of people youre reffering to, and they don't have good bunkai because theyre lazy and arrogant for the most part. Just so you know, and you might know, there are some good practitioners of Okinawan MA in this country, they just arent real 'public' about what they know, teach in small dojo, etc. So are you saying that theres a right and wrong bunkai, or a right and wrong way of finding it? In Nagamines book he complains that many Japanese karateka have chosen flair over substance for the most part (sorry if I misquoted him, but I think thats the gist), I think this statement is more telling than any specific condemnation of technique.

Hank Irwin
21st May 2001, 21:36
So right Zinnsan, one bunkai better than the other, hmmm, I don't really know what that means. There is a right and wrong bunkai. On the pronounciation thing, I don't think it really matters a whole lot, when we say the names you can't discern between the correct spelling or not, knowing the kata is what is important. Bunkai is Jap. term and I have always known it as "breaking down" some say analyze. I think analyzing something is a little different. Where you see the most or advanced bunkai for a kamae is from Senior deshi. Bunkai should "flow" from one movement to the next. I have seen some schools that advocate NOT teaching bunkai or kumite. They actually leave it up to you to find out, what a joke. This may be in part why we have seen so many horrendous displays of bunkai. I remember watching a 7th dan try to explain what the opening circular steps were in Rohai at a seminar. He said it was instep sweep from the front, Holy mollie! What a joke! Got his block knocked off! Chinese walking, step around saibaki take out the back foot using the ankle-bone spur on inside of foot. Hands at hips are grabs pulling to the body as you step around. To the in-experienced deshi bunkai is so captivating especially when finding something "new" they never saw or felt before.

Hank Irwin
21st May 2001, 21:42
So right Zinnsan, one bunkai better than the other, hmmm, I don't really know what that means. There is a right and wrong bunkai. On the pronounciation thing, I don't think it really matters a whole lot, when we say the names you can't discern between the correct spelling or not, knowing the kata is what is important. Bunkai is Jap. term and I have always known it as "breaking down" some say analyze. I think analyzing something is a little different. Where you see the most or advanced bunkai for a kamae is from Senior deshi. Bunkai should "flow" from one movement to the next. I have seen some schools that advocate NOT teaching bunkai or kumite. They actually leave it up to you to find out, what a joke. This may be in part why we have seen so many horrendous displays of bunkai. I remember watching a 7th dan try to explain what the opening circular steps were in Rohai at a seminar. He said it was instep sweep from the front, Holy mollie! What a joke! Got his block knocked off! Chinese walking, step around saibaki take out the back foot using the ankle-bone spur on inside of foot. Hands at hips are grabs pulling to the body as you step around. To the in-experienced deshi bunkai is so captivating especially when finding something "new" they never saw or felt before.

Hank Irwin
21st May 2001, 21:43
Sorry for the double post fellas'!

zach
22nd May 2001, 03:33
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
circular steps were in Rohai at a seminar. He said it was instep sweep from the front, Holy mollie! What a joke! Got his block knocked off! Chinese walking, step around saibaki take out the back foot using the ankle-bone spur on inside of foot. Hands at hips are grabs pulling to the body as you step around. To the in-experienced deshi bunkai is so captivating especially when finding something "new" they never saw or felt before. [/B]

I hadn't worked out that part for Rohai, its the highest kata I know where I train and I cant do it very well yet, but the one legged posture brings up some interesting ideas..it seems were pretty much in agreement here...... I should mention that my knowledge is not advanced, but the few katas I have a good bunkai for I have done for years, and only now have been taught and figured out more advanced application, much of it from my father.
Hey, what do you think of the consecutive shuto in Wankan, how do you interpret that? - the ones usually performed in nekowashidachi(go ahead and laugh at my spelling)? Curious to hear what others think of this series of techniques as well.

Hank Irwin
22nd May 2001, 04:26
I have seen Wankan via John Sells and Nagamine Sensei but do not do it in our system though. Very interesting kata I must say. The one legged stance(crane) in Rohai is almost identical to Ueichi Seisan one legged stance. There are quite a few applications for this Kamae. You have to be mighty quick to avoid a sword at the ankles, but not a Bo, just good shins hahaha!! Zinnsan do you do Wansu in your style/styles?(what is it by the way?)

Sochin
23rd May 2001, 16:52
Our Shorin-ji ryu practices both Empi and Wansu both - they are so different as to be two separate kata, each with its strengths. A common agreement can be seen so they are variations on a theme rather than contraditctions.

RE: Hanks quote:
"Hey, what do you think of the consecutive shuto in Wankan, how do you interpret that? - the ones usually performed in nekowashidachi (go ahead and laugh at my spelling)? Curious to hear what others think of this series of techniques as well."

Our version of hand moves in the neko ashidachi of WanKan do not have consecutive shutos - rather we have a collapsing pinning move bringing the hands closer to the chest then a shuto tsuki to the throat with a following lunge punch. The reason I mention is that the collapsing move is one of the two moves I have ever used in self defense but instead of applying it to the inside of his elbow to collapse it, I did it to the outside of his elbow with a snap, just hard enought to take the attack out of his mind, no damage. This elbow attack and the shuto rising up to strike up under the chin into the front of the throat are two of my "serious" moves, and the reason I teach WanKan. In cqc parlance, this shuto is a 'short ax hand' and is used as a pre-emptive strike. Ouch, :( !

Tobey
23rd May 2001, 23:18
Greetings,

I must jump in here for a second. I have been practicing wansu for a few years now and it wasn't until reciently that I picked up Enpi for the purpose of comparing the two kata. In that time I have done a small amount of history on the kata that I would be willing to send anyone who is interested (it is a little long to post here without boring you all).

In my comparison I have found quite a bit similar between Enpi and Wansu in bunkai and feeling. Last fall I did a seminar with Tony Annesi comparing the two. There is a video of this available at his site (the URL escapes me right now but it is Bushido-kai).

I look forward to any information that people have on the two kata. Let me know if I can be any assistance.

Thanks,

Tobey C. Reed

zach
25th May 2001, 17:31
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hank Irwin
I have seen Wankan via John Sells and Nagamine Sensei but do not do it in our system though. Very interesting kata I must say. The one legged stance(crane) in Rohai is almost identical to Ueichi Seisan one legged stance. There are quite a few applications for this Kamae. You have to be mighty quick to avoid a sword at the ankles, but not a Bo, just good shins hahaha!! Zinnsan do you do Wansu in your style/styles?(what is it by the way?) [/QUOTE

Well, stylistically it perhaps resembles Shobayashi, but my sensei
trained under a variety of instrcutors w/ various lineages, so ive given up reffering to it as anything other than just Shorin ryu, even at that; we do a couple of Goju kata as well, which I think were learned from Kimo Wall sensei. We do Wansu, closest version ive seen to ours the the version in Classical Kata of Okinawan Karate by Pat McCarthy, only difference is ours uses tate fists and we dont 'raise and lower' as much.

Jussi Häkkinen
6th June 2001, 18:08
Ah, just about spelling...

I have seen "Enpi" in most issues that I have seen that kata name. I believe that "enpi" is a better way to write the kata name. Well, I have to justify my claim, so I'll do it.

"Empi" is a common writing form (transliteration) for "elbow" in japanese. "Enpi" is commonly been used for "swallow", bird. So, when "Enpi" as a kata name means "flying swallow", I would use that form.

(Uh oh. 2 weeks without computer and my english starts already to stink badly. Sorry about that, I'll catch up my normal level in some days).

Jussi

Rob Alvelais
6th June 2001, 20:33
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
I think purely Japanization. Wansu is empi, Seisan is hangetsu, why, I don't care myself.

It's widely regarded that the name changes (Wanshu=> En(m)pi, Chinto=> Gankaku, Seis(h)an => Hangetsu were initiated by Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan. He states his reasons, I believe, in his autobiography, and possibly in Karate-Do Kyohan. His purpose was to make the art more palatable to the Japanese intelligencia. So, the names were changed (along with other changes in form and function, to conform to his idea of what would be palatable. Some names (like Hottaku for Gojushiho Dai) didn't take.




I think much comes from what you really know(the Jap masters) of any given kata. If you do not know the "authentic" bunkai for a given kata you will never know it completely. You can make all the educated guesses you like and that's just what it will be, a guess. I think the Japanese changed almost every kata they learned by way of Okinawa.


There are other Japanese styles than Shotokan. Not all of them changed things as much as you allude. Also, some styles regarded as Japanese, like Shito Ryu, Chito Ryu, Seishin Kai were headed by people who learned their karate on their homeland, Okinawa. So, is it a Japanese change to the karate or is it ok for an Okinwan who lives in Japan to change the kata? Because, after all, the Okinawans were changing the kata left and right. Somehow, I'm not sure that one's geography disqualifies someone.


Also, with regard to bunkai, if you compare common kata from the different Okinawan systems, you will often find that there are different bunkai for the same movement. Things were personalized and adapted to the practitioner's body type and temperment. So, there really isn't a notion of "A" bunkai or "The" bunkai. Rather, it's what conforms to the general shape of the movement and what the individual can actually make work in a stressful situation. I further submit that one's educated guess after say , 30 years of training and research carrys a bit more weight than say someone with only a couple of years. It's been my experience in taking classes from some rather high ranking people in various Okinawan systems, that they present several "possibilities" for bunkai for a particular movement in kata.

In fact, on the Uechi Ryu website, there's a video of a 9th Dan in Shorin ryu showing different possibilities, each, for a couple of movements in Pinan Sandan.


Almost all Japanese karate has extremely low stances for instance. Overemphasized, overly dramatic.

I've dabbled in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and I have rank in Shotokan and Shito Ryu. The zenkutsu dachi in Shito Ryu, Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and Shotokan or Wado Ryu are the same height. Neko Ashi Dachi in Shito Ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu are the same height. While there is some of what you're saying, I don't think it's as wide spread as your intimating. Also, the Okinawan systems don't use high stances exclusively.


Rob Alvelais

Hank Irwin
7th June 2001, 14:16
There is no doubt Funakoshi is the Father of Gendai Karate. Gendai Bushi. To some this it noteworthy, to others not quite so. Funakoshi was a gifted man and quite the scholar, but not a Warrior/Bushi. For me, it is hard to accept technique from someone who cannot defend themselves. Have known quite a few myself. I can just imagine where Japanese Karate would be if someone else had played the role that Mabuni and Funakoshi did. Okinawa has never wanted to be known as part of Japan, but to be good neighbor, this is in part I think the reason Karate is what it is in Japan. There is a story I heard that Funakoshi was warned that if he taught the inside principles of Tode to the Japanese, he would be killed. This would not surprise me considering the relationship the Okinawans had with the Japanese. Some wish not to accept this though. But nevertheless, it is true. The older and some younger generations of Uchina have a course disdain for the Japanese and rightly so, just look at history. Okinawa; An Island People, is not only a good historical account, but gives a slight insight as to how much hardship the Okinawans have gone through in the past few hundreds of years. Their struggle goes further back than that though. Not to get to far off the track, Wansu/Empi, Seisan/Hangetsu, Patsai/Bassai, terminology is gonna kill us it seems at times, that's one thing, but the bastardization of kata that has taken place in the last 20 years is enormous to say the least. I think many have forgotten that this is Martial Arts, not sports. I am sure I will get shot at for this, but what the hey!

zach
9th June 2001, 05:49
I dunno Hank, I think its less Funakoshis fault than the people who followed him, if you ever look at pictures of the man himself, hes never in the deep stances seen in later shotokan...I dont think the 'inside' principles of tode are so much deviant from anything that they cant be learned with hard, alos I would say the same about bunkai....good instructor, good teaching...good bunkai. I agree with what youre saying about 'martial sport' as opposed to art, but I think the bottom line is depth of teaching and the type of studying thats done, not the depth of ones Zenkutsu. Plus, who is a 'bushi' then? Many karate preactitioners aside from funakoshi went to the japanese mainland and taught, or at least demonstrated, some of whom (guess who im talking about) were reputed to be extremely tough fellows. I dont go for this 'secrets' stuff, 'secrets' are obtained by constant study of basic technique, this is also (IMO) what good bunkai grows out of. One last thing, I dont think all Okinawan MA practitioners had such an anti japanese attitude, though obviously some did.

Harkonnen
16th June 2001, 16:52
I've read Funakoshi's autobiography and he states that he went to Japan to spread the art of karate only with the approval of masters Azato and Itosu, his teachers. Given that these guys were respected leaders in the Okinawan martial arts community, I find it difficult to believe that Funakoshi was threatened with death by Okinawans if he taught martial arts in Japan! This is along the lines of saying that Bruce Lee was killed by a ninja because he "knew too much!"

Harkonnen
16th June 2001, 16:54
Sorry, I forgot to sign my name to the last message regarding Funakoshi!

Mark Frederick

Hank Irwin
17th June 2001, 02:02
Hey fella's how's it going? Funakoshi went with permission, this is true, to teach Karate. But he went with Island Thinking when he went, much by the direction of his teachers and others. Motobu Choki was one of the one's that expressed dissagreement over Funakoshi going to begin with. He feared Funakoshi would teach as he wished. He wasn't the only one who felt this way. At one point I think many of the Okinawan's feared their culture would vanish completely if they didn't accept Japanese intergration. I guess that fear is coming true to an extent. There were quite a few Okinawan's that went to Japan and stayed there and taught, before Funakoshi. But the changes are as Zach said, mostly by way of the deshi in Japan. We have the same thing happening here. Students change things sometimes when they because teachers. I think change is ok, as long as we stay conformed to traditional thinking.

Harkonnen
17th June 2001, 03:46
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
Hey fella's how's it going? Funakoshi went with permission, this is true, to teach Karate. But he went with Island Thinking when he went, much by the direction of his teachers and others. Motobu Choki was one of the one's that expressed dissagreement over Funakoshi going to begin with. He feared Funakoshi would teach as he wished. He wasn't the only one who felt this way. At one point I think many of the Okinawan's feared their culture would vanish completely if they didn't accept Japanese intergration. I guess that fear is coming true to an extent. There were quite a few Okinawan's that went to Japan and stayed there and taught, before Funakoshi. But the changes are as Zach said, mostly by way of the deshi in Japan. We have the same thing happening here. Students change things sometimes when they because teachers. I think change is ok, as long as we stay conformed to traditional thinking.

I agree with you there. Even according to Funakoshi, Okinawans were proud of their culture and other sources have said this too. On the other hand, could Okinawans have been proud of the fact that their indigenous fighting methods were being accepted by the Japanese?

Mark Frederick