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edg176
8th May 2001, 05:08
Hello,

Recently I watched a video from Japan about K-1 competition.
In the video, they showed a couple of minutes of what the English caption said was the
1992 or 93 All-Okinawa Karate Championships. In it the participants were wearing armor.

I'm wondering...where can you get that type of chest armor? How effective is it? What about the face masks that they wear? The gloves?

I vaguely recall Mr. Vengel mentioning something about bogu kumite in Okinawan karate, so if you're reading this and I'm also wondering if this tournament is the same thing?

thanks,
Tim Fong

kusanku
8th May 2001, 05:55
Yes, the Okinawan gear you saw, was bogu as done in Bogu kumite.

It's patterned after Kendo armor, and back in the times, 60's and seventies, that was what was used, Kendo armor.

I think Ryukyu imports would handle the gear.It tends to be a bit expensive however.


'How effective is it?'

Well, if you play strictly by the rules, no hitting where not covered and protected by the armor,its pretty effective in that you won't get the long term effects of the hits you take that you would if done with no armor.

But you can be k'o'ed, right through it, and you can get "ribbed' pretty good , and your neck could be injured,if you aren't set just right.

Plus, the vision can be obstructed, and movement is hindered somewhat until you learn the proper ways to move in it.

Remember, this is the sport form of Okinawan karate, not the martial part of it, but still and all, one does learn something about reality wearing and using this gear.

First thing you learn is that you really were not ready to do this.:-)

Because the only way to Get ready, is to do it, after you have sufficient grounding in the basic skills.

You learn to stand firmly, move on balance, and keep vulnerable areas protected, breathe in such a manner as to minimize effects of the blows to the armor,and you learn to throw an effective strike, punches and kicks, to the opponent so as to knock him, back, down out.

The Okinawans are of two minds about kumite, some feel it shouldn't be done at all, just kata and two person drills, prearranged, and the others, well, you saw the others.:-)

I had the experiences both ways.

Both ways have advantages.Both , disadvantages.

Here they are as I see them.

Advantage bogu:You learn more faster about what a fight requires.Note I didn't say self defense, I said a fight.You learn to take powerful blows and kicks standing and move into the counterrattack.

You learn what would have happened to you if those blows had been delivered to you unarmored.And you learn exactly what your own techniques can be capable of.

The attitude in a real confrontation of a person who has knocked people ten feet back with kicks, and down and out with punches, is not the same as a no-contact or point fighter.At all.

It's the same as that of a judoka or wrestler who knows exactly what they can or can not do and knows what it's going to take to do it.Heavybag and makiwara training are part of this as well.also two man training, step by step, in sparring..

Nothing haphazard about this.

Disadvantage:Well, better have a lot of self control, because when someone gets in your face, the temptation is there, and strongly, to use what you have.

I really recommend against that.See, bogu kumite is not a defensive thing, its an attacking thing, and totaly opposite to the old spirit of karate as a self defensive art.

Now that can be bad, as well as good.
But you know what I am talking about. Especially for the young.Again, I think this might be a little much.

I wouldn't teach it to anyone unless they graduate high school first.

Less temptations that way, to actually blast someone with this stuff.

Old way: No kumite, advantage:

Easier to control impulse to use what you have been taught.

Less chances of injuring yourself and or others.

Still using bags, makiewara, other items.Not like you don't now what the blows and kicks can do, you just don't so them on each other, except with control, no contact, in drills.

No jiyu kumite, so no danger of bad habits being formed, such as throwing spinning back kicks, blind techniques and such.:-)

Also the targest you practice for with this are real.As you train so you respond.

Bear in mind, that in Okinawan Kempo, both these types of training are used, but in older style, the kumite was a different thing.More of a grappling contest to see who was superior without serious damage.


Mr. Nagamine's Shorin ryu. Matsubayashi ryu, was taught me in a non sparing format, but two person drills were there in plenty.I'd already done the bogu kumite and also judo, though.

Even so, these guys are well able to use their art if needed.

Disadvantage:Well, I'd have to say, the temptation to enter open tournaments and whip some.:-)

And they do, and when they focus too much, on this aspect, the karate changes, not always for the better.

You might think I would say, not knowing whether the stuff will work, but you'd have to see it, you Know it does.When you strike the makiwara, the bags, other things, you develop the atemi, sharp striking power, of karate, and when you do the two person kumite drills( prearranged) you learn to position yourself to deliver them, while opponent cannot defend.

But no, I'd saythe main disadvantage is getting into open tournaments, and doing well.Less time spent on perfecting defensive reactions, more on training tournament style.

In both bogu and non bogu Okinawan karate, kata is at the center of the art. If it becomes a competition thing, either kata or kumite, the art can deteriorate, if not for you, for the students.

With bogu kumite, the difference is this: Nothing is lost,just be aware of what is different- in the sport form, you hit safer areas covered by armor, and aren't allowed to do ninety percent of the techniques in kata.

But if you practice them as a separate training, that doesn't matter.

It's when you mix everything up, that your karate suffers.

I do lots of types of karate( three) but I never mix them.

When I practice or teach, I practice or teach only that style, one at a time.

Not about stylistic purity, no such thing. Its about keeping principles effective in application.They use different power deilivery systems and different tactics and different strategy for different purposes.

Having said that, bogu kumite is really harsh and brutal training, but it teaches about use of actual karate, full contact, in fighting..without the permanent consequences.Hopefully. It is still somewhat dangerous training, if you don't do it right, and also, if you do.:D

The non-contact kata-centered Okinawan training, well, that teaches you self defense, no fighting. That too is dangerous, if ego is present or control is not, or both.

Karate is a martial art. Training is and can be somewhat risky. Know yourself well, and know those with whom you train as well as you can, and keep your guard up, and trust no one fully.Practice for real life.

Ultimately, the essence of karate PRACTICE IS CONTAINED IN THE KATA, so practice kata a lot.


But if you want bogu kumite, go see the Kempo masters.It's a sport and a science, the sport is bogu kumite and the science is karate.The art is from your mind and from your heart, a thing of the spirit.

And the spirit is courage.


By the way, the K-1 guys are not your everyday people, those are world class athletes.Top of the line,and most fighters would have one bad time with any of them.We are talkking Olympic class athletes, here.

Who does the bogu kumite are guys like you and me, started as regular human beings.:D

That's why we wore armor.The K-1 guys, well, they Are armored, like we can never be,unless that is what you genetically and by training have become.

One art is used or was, by Policemen, to take care of the peace.That is karate of Okinawa.Maybe by soldiers some, too.Yes, the masters are incredibly skilled.So are the champion fighters.

The other,the K-1 guys, though, that is the bloodsport of Gladiators.And hey, you have to say, they are tough, tough, sklled, fighters, and ordinary mortals are not in their league that way.

Two very different things.

The one, Okinawan karate, is to enable ordinary people to do extraordinary things.

The other, the pro contests, are to enable extraordinary athlestes to showcase their skills before the world.

The first is enough for me, but the bogu kumite pushed that to the limit.Its sport combat.

Ed Howard
17th May 2001, 18:17
I think you covered it all there!
Absolutely, bogu kumite hurts like hell when you first start, and will leave you nicely bruised afterwards pretty much however good you are. After contests or training you can expect nice purple bits on any surface you block or strike with, the odd broken rib if you are unlucky and a bruised jaw that will have you refusing all but liquids for a few days. (a delious nutricious shake for all three meals can get a bit old!)
It does really help with distancing, guard, awareness and the realisation of the damage this stuff can do if mis applied. Part of gaining humility is taking a hiding now and again (thats the dumb route I admit, but the only one some can understand)
And it does without the proper karate kata and techniques, turn into more of a kick boxing type thing as you said.
I having tried a few of the sundome (non contact stuff) styles am really glad I entered into a style with Bogu kumite, but be aware that it will really hurt!
I miss those K1 evenings in Japan, anyone know if they are available on TV in the UK?!
All the best

Hank Irwin
18th May 2001, 04:23
My first style was Wado, point fighting. The next a little different. Bogu from beginning. I competed for 10 years in different types of point comp. Some being no contact to light to heavy. But always doing full-contact in class, and did usually display the same mindset in comp. matches. In the early to mid 70's you didn't see a whole lot of full-contact matches except for in dojos or private matches. IMO Bogu lets you get as close to real "combat" as possible without the definatness of the results of real combat, one warrior usually dies or is wounded close to fatal. I don't know if I would say Bogu is brutal, combat can be though. Regular class can be brutal especially if you are doing koreatay(conditioning) that day. But anyway, I think to Koryu practitioners Bogu Kumite is the only way to go, to actually use one's kata. Now granted, some techniques you wouldn't want to do just for safety's sake, but MANY you can and with caution and intent. We just have to remember, we are actually doing "controlled duels" amongst ourselves, and can still get hurt. Just like KusanKu said, there are many areas that are exposed to attack and injury. The Bogu gear we used was from Okinawa from the 50's and the head gear was stiff as a board. I remember one time we were doing Bo kumite and I got clobbered upside the left side of my head. Went down, BAM! got right back up too. Didn't get hurt. but this wasn't a full focused blow either, we were using red oak Bo's by the way. The risks we take to enter the "Gates of Shaolin" are quite dangerous from time to time, but for most of us they are risks we must at times take. I think we also should not forget to be good people.

kusanku
18th May 2001, 10:11
Ed, Hank, all my Bogu brothers, that's the way it is, all right.

And remember using the Kendo Headgear and punching right into that line of steel ridges the first time, while not wearing much protection on the hand and ripping the skin on the knuckles to shreds? Blood everywhere!

Some fun, hey guys?:D

Or the first time a bogu backfist is thrown. You Will learn to keep a tight fist, or else.

But what's really fun is to watch the first time a point guy gets into bogu, often the last time.:-)

Whip! up comes the spiffy roundhouse head kick and over on his butt he falls, off balanced by the gear.

Whoosh! Here come the flurry of slappy hand technques that go rattty tat on the headgear with no effect whatever, as te mpre experienced bogu fighter goes straight up the middle and runs over the pointer.Clang! Wham!and keeps on fighting.

That's when the point fighter realizes that they do't call time when you get hit, you have to keep on fighting, even against a wall or on the floor, whilst getting Dawse Hell stomped out of you.:D

Its a little bit like a fight, all right.With rules and some protection, but the spirit is definitely there.

Bogu is Definitely the way to learn about reality without being actually killed or crippled, too bad.Mostly.

Then when you do your kihon, and your kata, you really learn from them.You have to.

Motto in Okinawan Kenpo:'The more you sweat in kihon and kata, the less you bleed in kumite.

Also a good motive for makiwara training.Clang!Thump!Whup!Crack!
And speaking of bleeding, make sure you watch out for the inside of that ridge, it can cut your mouth up bad if hit good.Some guys used to wrap a bandanna inside to avoid that.

It does change your technique's shape, too, as mentioned. Side thrust kicks are with the heel, and hammerfist rules.Whang!Clong!

And punches are done correctly, and with knockdown ower, or not at all.

Plus another reason you fight in close and arm to arm on the other guy is you can't see all that well through that mask.Specially when the sweat starts pouring and does it ever.

Preparation for the real deal in many ways.

What also used to happen, was after sessions with bogu, when you left the dojo, you were in No Mood to be trifled with.

One time a guy after a workout, in a place we went to, to eat and such, replenish liquids and like that, you know, says he's gonna kick my and my buddie's fundaments.We started laughing at him, and I said,'What are you gonna do to us that hasn't already been done a whole lot harder and better tonight?'

He thought we were crazy and left. Good thing, too.Movement without the bogu is a whole lot easier than with.

And ya gotta be fast.Or you're gonna be last.Bogu-love it, hate it,but you got to admit,it gets the job done.

Kinda like boxing and judo.They both work and everyone who ever does either one or spars with someone who does, knows it too, even if they would like to deny it.Its crude, its rude, and it works.

But man, be in condition before you get in that stuff.I mean in arate condition as well as physical condition.

'Cause if you ain't Blue Lightning before you do, you gonna take a Pounding.

No fancy maneuvering here, just Tank warfare.Light weapons, medium range and artilerry, but the infantry has to take the hill.And for that, you get in close.Real close.Any closer and you are doing judo.

Ed Howard
18th May 2001, 12:07
Nice to know there are a few of us out there!
The bit about the kendo helmet made me laugh, I know EXACTLY what you mean! It was so tough that the guy didnt used to feel a thing, while I had a dodgy plastic thing on, he used to rattle me round like a rag doll!
There do seem to have been a few advances recently, we used to use these vile white headguards with a perspex screen that would fog up like mad. I got a nice one in Japan last summer though kind of like the guard amateur boxers wear but a lot lighter and with a tough plastic shield around the mouth and nose. No perspex, but it doesnt absorb the hits like those kendo helmets. Think it was about 80bucks US? I think it was in the Mizuno catalogue in Japan.
Definitely spot on with the "first time is often the last", it is a real shock to the system being clattered properly. Makes you or breaks you.
Ironically there seem to be less injuries than with the sundome styles or the kyokushin type styles where people are permanently holding noses or searching around for teeth!
And the best thing is that it allows those round techniques which are so much part of the art, reverse roundhouse backfists, punches and kicks. There is simply no way you can stop one of those, at leat until it connects!
All the best
Ed

kusanku
19th May 2001, 09:59
Its true that in the bogu styles there are fewer and less dire injuries than the point stuff. Why?Well, you fight different when you Know you are going to get hit, a lot.

Also you hit diffferent, breathe different, and hold the body and limbs differently when you have to hit and be hit.

The katas done in bogu styles all feel different, like a boxers punch even looks different when they shadow box.

Because they know how to really hit, when you hit the air, you do it as a pulled version of the real thing. and point people say, 'That's sloppy!'

Yeah. We know.:D

When you fight bogu or contact, you keep the head up, chin in, teeth clenched or around the mouthpiece, exhale when struck or kicked, and keep going into the opponent or around him to the side and in and you don't ever , back up.

Macho, right? Wrong!Its the way to not get hit as much. Also, you usually continually attACK IN COMBOS OF UP TO TWENTY MOVES IN A SEQUENCES, FLOWING IN , AROUND , ABOUT, AND LIKE ED SAID, AROUND AND AROUND TOO.

First time you do the bogu kumite ad he other one whangs into you and drives you into a wall and keeps beating on you until you hit back, if you ever do, tha's when it sinks in on you, you're wearing armor, the other person has no comunction whatever about hitting you,BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT RIGHT, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET REALLY HURT.

And if you don't get it, your first match in bogu will be your last, and that's all right, too.It isn't for everyone.

But if you want to feel the power of karate as delivered into your own body, but without the bad effects, the bogu is there.

And if you want to know, not just guess, what your karate can do with no bad feelings afterwards about really damaging someone, , because they know how to use the armor to protect them, the bogu is there.

And if you want to really find out without dying or killing, what you got or someone else has, the bogu, is, there.Just hanging there, on the wall, looking So hamrless, isn't it? Isn't it? Sure it is.:D

Why don't you just take it down, put it one, and find out, right now?

Er, keep your neck straight and your teeth clenched, and above all , keep that guard up, I recommend chudan morote uke no kame, and guard the ribs with the rear hand.

Yes.Oh, and one other thing.Remember the old gladiaor's salute to the Caesar?Salutamus Te Morituri?"We, who are about to die, salute you?'

You will understand why they said that, because after the first match with this stuff, it may take you a while to realize you didn't just get killed.

Then what you do after that, makes all the difference.

Sound macho? Not really.It's the difference between shadow boxing and realboxing, is all.

There is a reason for that armor.The reason is to train fighters.Not just dancers.Fighters.

But be in good health and referably young, and in good karate shape, before you put that on.

'Cause its kind of like being an extra in a Conan movie and you get to fight Conan. Or his Sensei.:D