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Den
9th May 2001, 23:07
Scott Sensei has noted that Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Honbu (http://panoz.tol.it/~daitoryu/daito-ryu.com/index.htm) does not - or not longer - recognizes Menkyo Kaiden as a teaching certificate. They associate it with receiving a university degree. I have a statement and a question.

Statement: I don't think the analogy of MA degrees to collegiate or university degrees is workable. Given that shodan, to give a gendai-budo example, while expressing a certain competence, is also simply a beginner's degree - how do you correlate that to a university degree? A bachelor's degree expresses completion of a course of study in something so broad we call it a "field" - but does not require continued study in that field. A masters degree is a teaching degree, but one that expresses knowledge of a particular subject, but not actual mastery. Actual mastery of a subject is only suggested by a doctorate. Which one is the Menkyo Kaiden?

Question: I've always thought of the Menkyo Kaiden as a teaching degree. While I practice a gendai MA, it has similar rules. Teachers must be at least nidan; dan ranks can only be conferred by six or seventh dan or above, etc. My question is, if Menkyo Kaiden is not a teaching degree, what standard (in the strictest meaning of the word) can be used to objectively and functionally (as in use) understand the art?

Repectfully submitted,
Anthony

10th May 2001, 00:15
Hi,

The Abashiri/Daito ryu group is on extremely shakey ground with their reasoning.

To publicly proclaim that a Menkyo Kaiden is not a teaching license is ...well...bizarre. The Menkyo Kaiden is universally recognized as a document symbolizing complete transmission of particular traditions technical syllabus. To acknowledge it's issuance and then misrepresent it's meaning by claiming that it does not authorize the holder to teach sends up huge flags that magnify the political motives of the SAD group. How they rationalize this argument is equally illuminatiing.

In the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, as in virtually every other traditional Japanese bujutsu ryu, the Menkyo Kaiden is definitely a teaching license. It is the highest level teaching license and is only awarded to a competent technical heir who is unusually qualified and dedicated to teaching. In fact a lifelong committment to teaching is an integral requirement to receiving a Menkyo Kaiden in our ryu. I took a keppan to verify my committment in this respect and I did not take it lightly.

Some people have questioned my virulent comments in regard to the Seishin Abashiri Daito ryu group and the motives behind them. It's very simple. After intimate discussion of this subject with Stan Pranin and some illuminating insight from Kondo in 1994 I have a pretty good idea of how this came to pass. I believe marginalizing the Menkyo Kaiden in Kondo Sensei's posssession marginalizes Tokimune's issuance and obvious choice of technical heir. Therefore the SAD group demonstrates incredible disrespect to their pastmaster and Daito ryu. All the protestations, convoluted rationalizations and cultural insults by the SAD group cannot obscure their dishonor. They should be ashamed.

Funny how no one questions the teaching authority of Takuma Hisa as awarded to him via Menkyo Kaiden by Sokaku Takeda. Hummm.

I wont even discuss the dojo resignation documents of the SAD group and what they imply.


Toby Threadgill/Menkyo Kaiden
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

MarkF
10th May 2001, 10:39
At least they had some ground to stand on before the change (OK it is a small piece of dirt, but it had something of an argument).

Why the cheap theatrics all of a sudden? With this, the claim is on line with the claims of all the others, e.g., John Williams, etc.

I didn't bother, either after reading the English index page. It's a cop-out and a weak one at that.

So sorry,

Mark

Nathan Scott
16th May 2001, 01:03
[Post deleted by user]

18th May 2001, 17:04
Nathan,

You stated:

"Sometimes Menkyo Kaiden is the highest award, as the name seems to imply. Sometimes it's not."

Do you mean to imply here that all ryu do not use a Menkyo Kaiden within their issuance of traditional licenses (acknowledged) or that some (besides the SAD) issue Menkyo Kaiden but do not use it to symbolize complete transmission of their technical syllabus?

I would be interested to learn of any group besides the SAD group that issues a Menkyo Kaiden and doesn't recognize it as the highest level teaching license. I believe the SAD group is trying to justify not acknowledging Menkyo Kaiden... period. Never mind that Sokaku Takeda's uncontested issuance of Menkyo Kaiden make that position totally unsupportable.


Toby Threadgill

Den
18th May 2001, 23:49
"Sometimes Menkyo Kaiden is the highest award, as the name seems to imply. Sometimes it's not."

(question to Nathan)Do you mean to imply here that all ryu do not use a Menkyo Kaiden within their issuance of traditional licenses (acknowledged) or that some (besides the SAD) issue Menkyo Kaiden but do not use it to symbolize complete transmission of their technical syllabus?

I'd like to add to Threadgill Sensei's question. Since posting I've been reading the threads Scott Sensei posted and some of Stanley Pranin's other articles about Daito ryu. Clearly Daito ryu is a difficult case, it doesn't seem that a formal methodolgy for transmission was worked out before the last Soke's death.

This particular case goes beyond the Menkyo Kaiden, because the underlaying conflict is over control of the ryu. Nevertheless, we expect the use of certain traditions, certain structures, to keep the process of education and record keeping from becoming totally arbitrary. How do other ryu handle these issues?

Toby, if you don't mind, what "rights," or responsibilities might be a better word, does your Menkyo Kaiden require of you?

Respectfully,
Anthony

MarkF
19th May 2001, 09:54
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
It would be swell to hear how the other recognized branches of Daito ryu define Menkyo Kaiden.



Isn't this a fairly mute point within the daitoryu community? In reading interviews with Takeda Tokimune, he had said he began using the dan-I system of grading or passing on teaching licenses instead of the menkyo, as the older system was just too cumbersome these days.

I'm sure the grades or teaching licenses are as close to the original as possible, and some "fringe" DR groups still profess to use it.

At least, that is my understanding within the DR groups with which I'm familiar, e.g. Roppokai, Kodokai, etc.?

Mark

Ellis Amdur
19th May 2001, 17:12
Toby is correct that menkyo kaiden usually means a full transmission and teaching certification. But, it is possible, within some ryu, that one can receive the highest menkyo in a system and not be permitted to teach. For example, Toda-ha Buko Ryu has a three level ranking of shoden/chuden/okuden. Further development is marked not by further rank, but by the actual presentation of scrolls, the hon-mokuroku and the betsu-mokuroku. In theory, this is a complete "transmission." However, teaching licenses are considered by the soke as separate - there is a shihan-dai (assistant instructor) license and a shihan (full instructor) license. Although it hasn't occurred, it is conceivable that we had a member of considerable skill, but of a character that the soke would not want him or her teaching. What they do is not egregious enough to throw them out (hamon), but despite their technical ability, they can't be trusted to pass things on.

Maniwa Nen Ryu, among other ryu, has an interesting safety valve. This is called an Ichi-dai menkyo (one-generation menkyo). The idea is that one is recognized as receiving the full transmission, but for any one of a number of reasons, is not permitted to transmit things further. One famous example is Homma Sengoro. This man in the Bakumatsu and early Meiji period was immensely strong. He'd started out an Araki Ryu practitioner and went to Maniwa to challenge them. As I recall, he split his bouts - winning half by grappling type moves, and losing the other half at sword length. He joined Maniwa Nen Ryu, and, as I understand it, became the strongest member. But he wasn't family - Maniwa Nen Ryu has always been passed down in the Higuchi family, in the village of Maniwa. So upon receiving the one generation menkyo, Homma set up his own dojo, some villages away, called Homma Nen Ryu. To the best of my knowledge, he taught the same curriculum. This was considered fully acceptable to all concerned. Twenty years ago, there was, I believe one or two members of the Homma Nen Ryu left - I don't know if they trained with Maniwa Nen Ryu, or if they'd really merged back together, but I know they demonstrated at the year's opening festivities.


NOTE: this should not be considered to support anything in the Daito Ryu discussion, as this is specific to each ryu, and would have to be a formal, historically backed tradition. For a schismatic group to suddenly assert that menkyo kaiden, in a system it has, to date, meant a full-transmission/teaching certification, suddenly doesn't mean that, doesn't fly. Sort of the equivalent of the tax resisters who announce that because the dollar is no longer backed by silver, US money is meaningly so they are issuing their own.

Best

Ellis Amdur

21st May 2001, 00:04
Hi Guys,

Anthony asked, "Toby, if you don't mind, what "rights," or responsibilities might be a better word, does your Menkyo Kaiden require of you?"

Succession in the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai is relatively simple and straight forward in comparison to what occurs in many koryu such as the Maniwa Nen ryu described above by Ellis. In our ryuha the holder of a Menkyo Kaiden becomes essentially an independent head of his own group of students and associated branch dojo's. No Menkyo Kaiden holder is technically senior to any other regardless of age or length of study. Each Menkyo Kaiden holder is allowed to loosely pursue his own path for the ryu but is encumbered by specific declarations and prohibitions of the ryu appearing in the eimeiroku where his keppan is recorded. These declarations and prohibitions are the same for every Menkyo Kaiden holder. If a Menkyo Kaiden holder chooses to break from these declarations and prohibitions he can be begrudgingly allowed to do so but only after officially being released from his keppan and discontinuing the use of the Takamura name. This recently occurred with Hashimoto Tetsuro Sensei in Japan who chose to break from the Takamura ryuha because his teaching duties comprised only Japanese junior high school aged students. He felt the harsh physical and mental requirements of the Takamura ryuha were not appropriate to his students given their age and level of experience. Sensei Maynard and I appreciated his concerns so his decision to withdraw as a general member of the ryuha included new status with us as an officially recognized nakama or affiliate dojo. This allows Hashimoto Sensei the option of officially rejoining the kai in the future by re-submitting his keppan to a current Menkyo Kaiden holder. (This re-joining of the kai is not automatic and could be rejected on varous grounds.)

My responsibility as holder of a Menkyo Kaiden in the Takamura Ryuha is to oversee and maintain to the best of my abilities the martial traditions and spirit of the ryu as passed to me by Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei. I am essentially a temporary custodian of passed knowledge who is also entrusted as an administrator to oversee various aspects of the ryu under my direct control. I am entrusted with responsability over the technical curriculum including evaluation and institution of any adjustments to that curriculum that I believe are of long term benefit to the ryu and it's genuine value to future generations. I am responsible for cultivating the talent of specific individuals who demonstrate a significant level of dedication and soundness of character so that they may follow in my path as an instructor and potentially continue the ryu when or if I am unable to do so.

I am not free to compromise specific qualifications, requirements or prohibitions concerning enrollment, certification of branch dojo's, the awarding of teaching licenses, joining larger martial arts organizations or entering into any activity that could compromise the independent operation or reputation the ryu. To do any of these things would violate my keppan and bring with it unique consequences discussed only between Takamura Sensei and me.

Although the possibility exists for multiple Menkyo Kaiden holders in the Takamura/Ohbata ryuha, presently there are only two and this is the first time there has been more than one. This includes myself and Sensei David Maynard. Sensei Maynard is currently functioning in an administrative capacity over several dojo's in Europe under the technical direction of European Chief Instructor, Sensei Henri Gembelliot / Joden Menkyo. Due to health and family concerns Sensei Maynard is not able to direct or operate a dojo at this time.

Toby Threadgill / Soryushin Dojo

Ellis Amdur
21st May 2001, 05:54
Actually, what you are describing, Toby, was probably the norm in koryu. There were certainly family arts (Yagyu, Katori, etc.) but by far, most arts functioned exactly as you describe yours. A lot of koryu, now, claim to be headed by a soke, because their main way to shine is in demonstrations, and they very much desire to be the "sole" representative. When the arts were alive, it really made no never mind that there was Yoshin Ryu in Morioka and Aomori. Each was hired by a specific daimyo, or maintained a dojo in a specific town. There would probably be fellow-feeling (and curiousity) in the event that someone visited from one dojo to another (unless, of course, the respective instructors didn't like each other).

Family transmitted arts, on the other hand, sometimes got into an interesting situation, differing for each ryu, when non-familial members got menkyo kaiden. As I understand it, some dealt with it like Maniwa. Others had off-shoots that became independent. It is my understanding that Yagyu Shinkage Ryu did this. (Otsubo and Watanabe Sensei(s) both, I believe, were menkyo kaiden, and were respectfully independent of the Yagyu family. (Meik or Dave, correct me if I'm wrong).

Best

Ellis Amdur

21st May 2001, 21:15
Ellis,

Really..... I sort of suspected that our organizational structure was not uncommon but I didn't realized it was closer to the norm. I guess I just assumed that in most koryu there is almost always a specific individual "in charge" to eliminate any potential friction or political bickering. During our personal conversation last month I remember we discussed this on a more specific level but we didn't really discuss the broader generalities.

Training as I have in an environment so isolated from other more classically minded koryu, I haven't had much to compare the Takamura ryuha to. Although we don't consider ourselves technically koryu, the more I learn about koryu, the more I find similarities instead of differences. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Thanks,

Toby

Den
21st May 2001, 22:55
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
Actually, what you are describing, Toby, was probably the norm in koryu. There were certainly family arts (Yagyu, Katori, etc.) but by far, most arts functioned exactly as you describe yours. ...
Family transmitted arts, on the other hand, sometimes got into an interesting situation, differing for each ryu, when non-familial members got menkyo kaiden. As I understand it, some dealt with it like Maniwa. Others had off-shoots that became independent.

Ellis Amdur

This is quite interesting - and is in keeping with what I thought - that there really is a cultural standard. Whether the art is koryu, or is a private family art, there are nevertheless accepted patterns for succession and transmission. While it may require the advanced practitioner to leave the ryuha, he or she might still credit the original art.

Where though does this leave an art like Daito ryu where the family does not want to follow the established norms?
-Anthony

Ellis Amdur
21st May 2001, 23:44
Mr. Deen -

What follows is simply my understanding based on conversations with senior intructors. I do not have the historical research to back it up, although, of course, I think I'm correct. ;)

I think that in older periods, a fraud would get a visit from the members of the school. Dojo yaburi was not only an attack on other schools. It could also include someone illegitimately claiming a lineage that they didn't earn.

Mitigating circumstances existed. First of all, it would be somewhat difficult to set up a false school that was officially hired by a daimyo, as they would certainly check one's particulars before hiring. Therefore, I believe that more frauds existed in machi dojos (town dojos) and among less prominent schools. Also, if separated by enough miles, it would be a) unlikely that the news would travel from one feudal domain to another b) that someone would be allowed to simply get permission to travel - duels required all sorts of official sanction. It would have been socially acceptable to thrash a fraud, however - the legal issues would, of course, possibly be separate.

By and large, however, the situation today in Japan would be difficult for a ryu with this problem. There is obviously general confusion in the public what lineal succession means, particularly with the confusion of the iemoto system being "transferred" to bugei. There have been court cases in which two people, rather than having it out either at sword point or fists, sue to be called the legitimate soke. I know of one case thrown out of court, the judges saying there was no historical precident for a soke in the ryu, so both guys, sons of different teachers, were equally "legitimate." Ironically, to my knowledge, neither had ever received the equivalent of a menkyo kaiden anyway, although both now claim such.

Given that a duel, an inter-dojo brawl, or two middle aged gentlemen tussling for wrist locks to determine supremacy wouldn't receive any social sanction in modern Japan (it would, instead, make the tabloids entitled, "Locked in Successional Dispute," or , accompanied by an embarassing photo, "Lack of Aiki in the Art of Aiki!") the options are to 1) ignore the fraud, like a lion would a weasel, 2) publically state your piece and THEN ignore the fraud or illegitimate claimant (the usually solution), or 3) to go to court. (I do know of at least one case where a rough and entirely legitimate instructor verbally took - a former fellow student who basically split off and promoted himself - to task backstage at a major demonstration, and when the fraud claimed that the other didn't know how to do things properly, the legit guy forcefully dumped, pinned and locked him and made him squeal for mercy in front of an assembled crowd of eminent koryu practitioners. In this venue and under these circumstances, this was totally approved of.)

(Sigh) There is also a fourth option, which is certainly rife - public arguments, trying to enlist outsiders to the ryu on one side or the other. Thus, more frequent is a koryu caucusing, where the claimants politic members of other ryu for support. Pathetic.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Den
21st May 2001, 23:56
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
Actually, what you are describing, Toby, was probably the norm in koryu. There were certainly family arts (Yagyu, Katori, etc.) but by far, most arts functioned exactly as you describe yours. ...
Family transmitted arts, on the other hand, sometimes got into an interesting situation, differing for each ryu, when non-familial members got menkyo kaiden. As I understand it, some dealt with it like Maniwa. Others had off-shoots that became independent.

Ellis Amdur

This is quite interesting - and is in keeping with what I thought - that there really is a cultural standard. Whether the art is koryu, or is a private family art, there are nevertheless accepted patterns for succession and transmission. While it may require the advanced practitioner to leave the ryuha, he or she might still credit the original art.

Where though does this leave an art like Daito ryu where the family does not want to follow the established norms?
-Anthony

Nathan Scott
22nd May 2001, 01:38
[Post deleted by user]

Nathan Scott
9th July 2004, 02:41
[Post deleted by user]

hyaku
30th July 2004, 01:13
I would have to revise your structure for the
Hyoho Niten Ichiryu. It may have been different in the past. Some people who have groups formed from teachers' students might have added a few honors. But at present its.

1. Soke
2. Designated Soke also know as "Soke"

This was acknowleded by Nippon Budo Budokan and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai early this year as we are sadly going through a change due to Soke's age.

Its no big secret. Anyone can go to the Nippon Budokan or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and see the present Meibo (Members list) of who practices and where.

Don't know exactly where you read it, but I get phone calls from Press/TV who have seen it. And NO I am bloody well not the Last Samurai!!!!

We also have Menko Kaiden and menkyo kaiden as some are honorary awards.

We seem to get by with teaching everything to one person only to acknowledge his position and thus have no need for rank and paperwork. Some get papers, others get two meter stones erected and makimono.

You can then add to the Daiho, Shibucho etc. hardy a rank but still a position of honour.

I might add that it may have been possible to have more than one person in a top postion in the past. But nowadays a national association of different ryu will only recognize one leader. So what do we do? Join a another association or form our own? Yes, it happens too frequently.

I am told the original method was three Menkyo Kaiden. But its seems that you have to acknowledge if thats with a capital M or an m. Too many cooks......?

Nathan Scott
30th July 2004, 01:30
[Post deleted by user]

hyaku
30th July 2004, 02:50
I suppose I was a bit hasty in answering and should have said that its not so much the structuring of what he could give you but what it's worth in pieces of paper.

He really felt that any designation was a last will and testament to carry things on rather than giving out candy. A last will and testament but one that must be done before you pass on to prevent any future confusion.

Its because a lot of past teachers have not done that we see a lot of things fall apart rather than stay together and all these lines you speak of.

Then again at the Association level and from others I have see a "tremendous" amount of pressure to promote rank. Damn, some of these guys are rank crazy and the words Budo Seishin becomes a joke.

I would not say its been simplified. If anything I see an urge to get away from this Soke title that we about in articles like this.

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wbodiford1.html

Soke says Musashi issued three Menkyo, no more, no less. It would be nice to get back to how it used to be.

You mentioned "Your line". Now thats the problem. As long as that comes up people will issue some sort of rank to postulate a distinction.

All in all I am well pleased we have managed to minimalize our heirarchy for the time being. To me Soke's wishes are most admirable and democratic. The feeling seems to be that if we can do away with "Soke" it will show anyone else up for what they really are.

It seems there are two tracks here. You can offer "more rank" to seperate the men from the boys. Or you give less to show there is only one man.

No snobbery or posers in our group. Just a very healthy respect for those that perform and teach well.

gmlc123
30th July 2004, 03:14
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
- Shindo muso-ryu jojutsu (神道夢想流):
1 – Okuiri-sho
2 – Sho-mokuroku
3 - Go-mokuroku
4 – Menkyo


Seems to be missing #5. Menkyo Kaiden

Nathan Scott
30th July 2004, 08:03
[Post deleted by user]

Aikilove
30th July 2004, 12:09
Just curious,
How is it decided upon who can teach within a group?
Say that I studied Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu until I was licensed a Dai-mokuroku kaiden or any other license. Then I went home to serve my Daimyo. Would I then be allowed to instruct the people in my village in kenjutsu? Would it still be Hokushin Itto-ryu and would my pupiles be able to say they are studens of Hokushin Itto-ryu? *This of curse in a hypothetical place and time a century or two ago.*

/J

hyaku
30th July 2004, 12:41
Originally posted by Aikilove
Just curious,
How is it decided upon who can teach within a group?
Say that I studied Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu until I was licensed a Dai-mokuroku kaiden or any other license. Then I went home to serve my Daimyo. Would I then be allowed to instruct the people in my village in kenjutsu? Would it still be Hokushin Itto-ryu and would my pupiles be able to say they are studens of Hokushin Itto-ryu? *This of curse in a hypothetical place and time a century or two ago.*

/J

Well your hypothetical case has so many things to take into consideration. Mainly with yours you chose Mongai fushutsu/Otome ryu anyway. This means is cannot be taught outside. Areas would be specified.

Also you are talking about feudal times.
We can only try and emulate the attutudes of service and loyalty. No one's going to chop our heads off if we do the wrong thing nowadays. If this was the case now it would cut all our memberships down considerabley.

I would say its more or less decided who and where we teach before receiving a licence to teach. With what I have seen licences are conditional. How can we really say for sure. A different time, different severe values.

Differing personalities and characters in any age sometimes clash. Who's to know? I would have said it was the Daimyo that would be up for lessons, not the village people.

Most of these things are over a lifetime of practice. Not something you pick up quick and pop off home.

Regards

Aikilove
30th July 2004, 13:19
Originally posted by hyaku
Well your hypothetical case has so many things to take into consideration. Mainly with yours you chose Mongai fushutsu/Otome ryu anyway. This means is cannot be taught outside. Areas would be specified.ok let me refrase it a little. Back then (in the feudal times) I imagine every man within the bushi cast practiced with the sword (fencing, iaijutsu etc.) Who taught them all? I mean they weren´t all living, since they started to walk, in a training house, training under Ito Ittosai himself, right? Who trained the village kids and young men in the art of sword?


No one's going to chop our heads off if we do the wrong thing nowadays. If this was the case now it would cut all our memberships down considerabley. :D

/J

Ron Tisdale
30th July 2004, 13:44
Hi Aikilove,

Do you hunt? Did your father? Who taught you to use a gun?

Ron

Aikilove
30th July 2004, 14:37
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Hi Aikilove,

Do you hunt? Did your father? Who taught you to use a gun?

Ron
My father hunts and he was taught how to use hunting arms through a series of seminars ending with a hunting license (that everyone in Sweden must have to hunt). Al though he learned how to use various forms of projectile weapons in the army (he's a retired capten you see!) and so did I (in the army that is). I don´t hunt.

/J

Ron Tisdale
30th July 2004, 14:45
The point was, in a lot of 'traditional' cultures, the father teaches his son the skills he needs to survive.

Ron

Aikilove
31st July 2004, 09:35
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
The point was, in a lot of 'traditional' cultures, the father teaches his son the skills he needs to survive.

Ron
I that case, what ryu of kenjutsu would the average son of a samurai be taught? And the same for his father etc?

Or was it like this: The average village son (of bushi) was taught how to handle the sword by his father. If he wanted to further study and be great he went to a school of sword. Something like that?

Nathan Scott
3rd August 2004, 00:53
[Post deleted by user]

Aikilove
3rd August 2004, 10:22
Sorry Nathan

/J

ghp
5th August 2004, 07:14
Hi Nathan,
"Keisho Denju". I don't know the kanji used for this, but on a guess I would say that "Keisho" means either "title of honor" or "inheritance/succession" Keisho is the scroll of succession and it can be seen in the book, Katsujin Ken Battodo. Nakamura Ryu, although only 50 years old, uses the koryu license system as itemized below [modern equavalents in brackets] :

1 - Shoden [1-2 dan]
2 - Chuden [3-4 dan]
3 - Okuden [5-6 dan]
4 - Okuden Menkyo [7-8 dan]
5 - Menkyo Kaiden [9-10 dan]

Additionally, there is the "Densho" -- license of transmission. I don't know how this system actually works; I have the Densho but am ranked only at okuden level.

Regards,
Guy

Nathan Scott
5th August 2004, 08:34
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ghp
5th August 2004, 20:17
Hello Nathan,

Nidai Soke is his daughter, Tomoko Arai. She is not a budo praticioner, but was named by sensei (recorded on video tape) before he passed away. I just met with her last month when I visited sensei's grave.

There are those who know how the system works, so no worry in that regard.

Regards,
Guy

Nathan Scott
22nd August 2008, 20:21
[Post deleted by user]

DDATFUS
22nd August 2008, 22:32
In other words, when a new headmaster is designated, a special ceremony is conducted. But when densho, or a Menkyo Kaiden is issued, the recipient historically kept the issuance of it in-house until well after the teacher's death. It can be assumed that, aside from humility, keeping the issuance of densho/ranks private reduces the amount the teacher has to deal with jealousy and bickering from among their students.


That's a very interesting quote, Nathan, especially in the context of some of the Daito Ryu discussions going on today. I'd just like to note that I suspect that things might have been a bit different in schools that traditionally practiced a shihan system (Araki Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu come to mind) as opposed to those that have a soke system (like Daito Ryu or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu). In the latter, the quote you give above probably applies. In the former, however, a menkyo kaiden was expected to go set up shop elsewhere and teach-- that probably made keeping who had menkyo kaiden quiet rather a moot point.

Tengu
23rd August 2008, 05:30
That's a very interesting quote, Nathan, especially in the context of some of the Daito Ryu discussions going on today. I'd just like to note that I suspect that things might have been a bit different in schools that traditionally practiced a shihan system (Araki Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu come to mind) as opposed to those that have a soke system (like Daito Ryu or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu). In the latter, the quote you give above probably applies. In the former, however, a menkyo kaiden was expected to go set up shop elsewhere and teach-- that probably made keeping who had menkyo kaiden quiet rather a moot point.
I think Shihan and Soke do not exclude each other. Tenshinsho Katori Shinto Ryu have a Soke And a Shihan. I think even a Shihanke.

Now Expanding the list:

- Suiō-ryū Iai Kenpō (水鷗流 居合 剣法)

1 - Shoden
2 - Chuden
3 - Okuden
4 - Sho Mokuroku
5 - Chu Mokuroku
6 - Dai Mokuroku
7 - So Menkyo
8 - Inka

Source: Paper by Katsuse Yoshimitsu Soke
Found in:http://www.suioryu-usa.org/bucreates.html

Regards

DDATFUS
23rd August 2008, 05:38
I think Shihan and Soke do not exclude each other.

That's true. Just to clarify, I'm in the habit (I think I picked it up from some folks at my dojo) of referring to a koryu that has a single main line of transmission as a soke system, and a koryu that has many branches in each generation as a shihan system. These seem to be the two major categories, but those are probably very imprecise terms, and the reality is always more complicated; Yagyu Shinkage Ryu was a soke-type system, but there were at least two major lines, and the soke three generations back had at least three students besides his son who operated their own lines. Katori Shinto Ryu, as you pointed out, have one soke... but they have this other guy who is the shihan, because the soke has health problems, I think... and then there might be another line or two at some point that were authorized to teach, possibly... it's all a headache when you try to apply hard rules to koryu succession.

Nathan Scott
23rd August 2008, 05:44
[Post deleted by user]

Tengu
27th August 2008, 19:21
As I am talking about Tenshinsho Katori Shinto Ryu, anyone knows the names and stuff of the diplomas of the ryu?
In the book "The Way of the Warrior: The Paradox of the Martial Arts" says that it have 3 graduations and only
and that one can only accept challenges when archive menkyo
Looks a bit dark to me.
anyone have a light?

regards

-B. Trece

Nathan Scott
29th August 2008, 06:12
[Post deleted by user]

Tengu
30th August 2008, 08:22
Nathan

I am very grateful for that info
this explains a lot for me that had only read draeguer books mostly on TSKSR
and about your sources I would ask you to share with us the sources of your findings
if it not lead to people to make more frauds :)

regards
and Good Luck (not very japanese but it is always good)
tsk tsk

-B.Trece

jfkcotter
30th August 2008, 10:36
me that had only read draeguer books
What's a 'draeguer' book?

Dan Harden
30th August 2008, 12:56
What's a 'draeguer' book?
Don Draeger (desceased) is the premier westerner who opened up many Koryu to westerners. He was a legend both in skill and knowledge of the Japanese Martial arts many of which he mastered as well as research into other cultrues martial arts. In Japan; from Tenshinsho-Den Katori Shinto Ryu, to Shinto Muso ryu to Aikido to Judo, onto Tai chi, then to Philipino arts-all under master level teachers (mostly who themselves were living legends) he was one of the rare few who could walk the path of classical kata and then get down and dirty.
His large house in Japan was a mecca to westerners-during their training. Many of them who went on to become legendary teachers and authors. It is no exageration to say that we all owe him a debt in many different respects. He was also the developer and founder of Hoplology-the study of indigenous Budo in their cultural context and how they relate
books
http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/draeger.html
bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn_F._Draeger

http://koryu.master.com/texis/master/search/?s=SS&q=Draeger

The new Katori book
http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/katori-shinto-ryu.html

Cheers
Dan

Fred27
30th August 2008, 14:20
What's a 'draeguer' book?

I think Cotter was just being sarcastic over Tengu's misspelling of Donn Draeger's name.
After all, Cotter was the one who uploaded this clip:
Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu - Donn F. Draeger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBi4XvWVUIs)

Tengu
30th August 2008, 15:20
I think Cotter was just being sarcastic over Tengu's misspelling of Donn Draeger's name.
Really my fault

Sometimes I do this misspelling because of how the name sounds in my language
but it is still wrong
Draeger is a great inspiration for me.
Dan has inserted useful info of bibliograph
I would like to add this address because have bibliograph of some of his lectures
http://www.hoplology.com/

I was forgetting to say that my English is crappy

Boa sorte

-B.Trece

Nathan Scott
30th August 2008, 16:31
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Dan Harden
30th August 2008, 23:56
Mr. Trece,

If you are asking me what my sources of information are for my last posting, they are "Deity and the Sword". This three book series was reprinted, edited, and expanded heavily by Koryu Books in a single volume book that is a must-have book:

http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/katori-shinto-ryu.html

Buy it.
Keigu,
Hi Nathan
Actually that really isn't exactly true in the purest sense of the word. To be clear folks. It's not a reprinting. Otake sensei was not happy with the last release, due to many errors -not worth mentioning. This new release is definitive in a way the other books were not. I can say that it was exhaustively reviewed, reworked and poured over in a way the other books were not either. It was a collaborative effort involving many people from within and out of the art today. And Koryu books is to be commended for their patience in seeing it through.
Were I you. I would purchase a copy now-before it ends up a $700 item on E-bay like the other books have.

Cheers
Dan

Tengu
1st September 2008, 06:24
Mr. Scott
great to know that the TSKSR Menkyo names are in both The Deity and The Sword and Warrior Tradition. I was aiming the second one for a time, but The Deity and The Sword is today as expensive as Dan suggested Warrior Tradition will be.
For the sources I asked I would like to make an explanation:
Knowing the sources is a valuable add to to think about information in many ways. Exemple:

Nathan said:

- Hyoho niten ichi-ryu kenjutsu ( 二天一流 ):
1 – Nyumon
2 – Mokuroku
3 – Menkyo
4 – Menkyo Kaiden

And Hyakutake Colin Said:

I am told the original method was three Menkyo Kaiden.

This two information indicates that the structure of graduation in the Hyoho niten ichi-ryu changed through time.

Other internet sources have other ranking documentaion for the Ryu, that can signify more changes or that someone is wrong
The site: http://www.nitenichiryu.jp/niten.htm states


Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
GRADES
1 - Shoden: Tachi
2 - Chuden: Tachi and Kodachi
3 - Okuden: Tachi, Kodachi and Nito
4 - Menkyo: Tachi, Kodachi, Nito and Bojutsu

And the Wikipedia says:

Shoden: Itto Seiho
Chuden: Kodachi Seiho
Okuden: Nito Seiho
Menkyo: Bojutsu
Menkyo Kaiden: All the curriculum of the ryu plus have a deep knowledge of the founder teachings.

But criticize the sources is always good to not make some kinds of mistakes
I don't know how to say it in English, but one of the steps in a research is called Critica das Fontes, when you look to the sources to appraise it's worth.
Wikipedia, for example, would be the first to be suspected, as anyone could modify It anytime.

Good Luck for us all

Nathan Scott
2nd September 2008, 03:15
[Post deleted by user]

Tengu
11th September 2008, 14:09
Nathan

I am sure that this thread will help to understand Densho
I read It full every time i enter it!
I have no intention to disrespect or anything like that
That was only an example that have many sources in the net
True that nothing is written in stone. Hyakutake saying that HNIR menkyo must have changed is an interesting information.
And as I saw in other threads, Daito Ryu uses Dan ranking in these days, am I right?
Changes can happen in many aspects of Koryu (and Koryu line of thinking modern arts)
but whithout exemples like that how could we really say it
I see the only exception is the stone of succession of HNIR. As I know that was written in stone:)

Regards

Nathan Scott
13th September 2008, 17:11
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Nathan Scott
3rd October 2008, 21:57
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Ollie
26th May 2009, 21:01
So after Takeda Sogaku´s dead no one can give menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu Aikijujutsu ? Nathan
or do you think one can give it (Menkyo Kaiden ) In Daitoryu Aikijujutsu /Kodokai / Roppokai / Takumakai / Sagawa ha / Kondo ?

Maybe like this , Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai no Menkyo Kaiden ?

like Kodokai gave Inoue Yusuke Menkyo Kaiden ?

Is the style Daitoryu Aikijujutsu from Takeda Sogaku in essens Dead , but cary
on in the Roppokai/kodokai/takumakai/Sagawa Ha/ Kondo/Sano/shigemitsu styles/traditions
what do you think thats the criteria to be called Daitoryu Aikijujutsu today

Ollie

lucky1899
26th May 2009, 21:36
Ole,

Soke and Menkyo Kaiden are not the same...Japanese lineage is difficult. :D Okamoto San, I've read, uses a term "soshi". I'm not sure what that carries.

Anyway, (I guess) he could "assume" the Menkyo Kaiden of Roppokai or Soke-ship of Roppokai. To stay in the grace of Takeda Sokaku's spirit, it would have to carry the name DRAJJ Roppokai as opposed to just Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I believe Yonezawa "assumed" a Menkyo Kaiden (or similar) in his organziation; although I must admit the details are sketchy and contradictory in what I've read.

Just putting my two cents in, I'm sure our super moderator Nathan will detail the rules in much clearer form.

Yours in Budo,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Ollie
26th May 2009, 21:49
Soke and Menkyo Kaiden are not the same...Japanese lineage is difficult.

ofcause it is no the same . thats not the point here.

Takeda Sogaku gave Menkyo Kaiden To Takuma Hisa , can Takuma Hisa give Menkyo Kaiden (in Daitoryu Aikijujutsu ) ( and yes i know he is dead ) ?

Takeda Sogaku Gave Menkyo Kaiden to Horikawa Kodo could Horikawa Kodo
give Menkyo Kaiden to Inoue Yusuke ?

could Yoshida Kotaro give menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu Aikijujutsu to Richard Kim ? when he did not recived it ?

in one of Okamoto sensei´s interwiev in Aikinews he said only Soke can give
Menkyo Kaiden In daitoryu Aikijujutsu.

so is Kondo´s Menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu Aikibudo and not in Daitoryu aikijujutsu ?
Ollie Aikiagesake

Ollie
26th May 2009, 22:02
Okamoto San, I've read, uses a term "soshi". I'm not sure what that carries.

I think its carries founder (of Roppokai)

Ollie

Ollie
26th May 2009, 22:21
Dear friends:)
My main interesse in this is mainly that many misusse the name Daitoryu Aikijujutsu , and use it to give there style credit,:(
also from a historical point of wiev :cool:

i am happy with my membership in Roppokai :D

sorry for the misspelling

Ollie;)

lucky1899
26th May 2009, 23:18
Ole wrote, "in one of Okamoto sensei´s interwiev in Aikinews he said only Soke can give Menkyo Kaiden In daitoryu Aikijujutsu."

Now I understand your question's perspective. I'm not sure whether that's true. It is true that Kondo's Menkyo Kaiden is in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

Yours in Budo,

A. De Luna
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

lucky1899
26th May 2009, 23:20
Okamoto San, I've read, uses a term "soshi". I'm not sure what that carries.

I think its carries founder (of Roppokai)

Ollie

So what privileges or rights does that give? Can a soshi give a menkyo kaiden? That was more my question.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna

Ollie
26th May 2009, 23:45
actually i do not know for sure:look:
i do not think Okamoto sensei will give Menkyo Kaiden in Roppokai.
i do not know all the rules in Roppokai , but this is pretty close ,
Okamoto will give OkugisanDan - Jun Dairi Kyoju -4 makimono´s - Dairi Kyoju - 7. th Dan - Shihan . in Daitoryu AikiJujutsu Roppokai .:)

and that will take about 30 to 35 years:eek:

Ollie;)

Chris Li
27th May 2009, 02:20
So what privileges or rights does that give? Can a soshi give a menkyo kaiden? That was more my question.

Regards,

Andrew De Luna

Well, there are no laws governing this kind of thing. Just custom and tradition - and that will vary quite a bit from art to art and from branch to branch within a particular art.

In the end, the "rights" are, I suppose, whatever you end up being able to get away with :).

Best,

Chris

Ollie
27th May 2009, 13:16
I have read true Daitoryu Densho and Menkyo Kaiden and Koryu Densho here on E budo .com and i find my answers .

Ollie:)

Nathan Scott
28th May 2009, 00:40
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Patrick McCarthy
28th May 2009, 01:00
... When it comes down to it, martial arts are physical arts, and you either have practical skills at it or you don't. Most students are more interested in developing real ability at martial arts than they are with studying under an inferior teacher who holds the ultimate administrative authority to issue papers. Students such as these are probably not going to care whether or not the mainline "recognizes" them or not, since they actually have the skill sets...

Nicely put Nathan.

someguy
28th May 2009, 01:19
As it was relay to me Nathan from Dan Sharp Sensei, you are correct in regards to Okabayashi Sensei. He wanted to avoid the political fighting going on with the other branches and Kondo. The fact that Kondo copy wrote the name Daito Ryu was another driving factor as were a few others things like some of the technical ways Okabayashi Sensei teaches. There is another thing in play here as well I think in regards to Hakuho Ryu, in that Sensei did get a Menkyo Kaiden in Tokimune's Sokoku Den Ono Ha Itto Ryu which Tokimune said contained the secrets of Daito Ryu.

Nathan Scott
28th May 2009, 06:04
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Ollie
28th May 2009, 14:16
Dear Nathan
Thank you very much for the very good explanations

great work

Ollie:)

skylinerR32
28th May 2009, 14:44
5) Kondo Sensei has mentioned only a couple of Daito-ryu branches in the past as "recognized" by him. If I remember correctly, they are the Takumakai and Kodokai - both branches founded by menkyo kaiden level instructors under a previous headmaster. The Sagawa Dojo is in a little bit of a gray area, in that the menkyo kaiden level existed during Sagawa Sensei's lifetime, but according to Sagawa Sensei (in Transparent Power), he was not interested in investing any more money in higher licensing.

Addressing the Sagawa Dojo as situated in a Daito-ryu "gray area" and Kondo's recognition of other legitimate sources of Daito-ryu instruction, the following is a re-post of a response from another thread:

From the FAQ Section of the Mainline Daito-Ryu website back in 2000 before it underwent signifcant re-design (http://web.archive.org/web/20000829082019/http://www.daito-ryu.org/faq.html#q2):


* What is the relationship between the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu General Headquarters and other Daito-ryu organizations such as the Kodokai and Takumakai?

These organizations were formed around the teachings direct students of Takeda Sokaku, namely Horikawa Kodo and Hisa Takuma. As such the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu General Headquarters recognizes their validity as representing portions of the Daito-ryu tradition and is on friendly terms of mutual respect with them and many of the individuals teaching under their auspices. Other groups include the Roppokai, founded by Okamoto Seigo, and the Sagawa Dojo, founded by the late Sagawa Yukiyoshi.

- Jim Yang

JNavarro
28th May 2009, 14:53
I was not aware that Tokimune Sensei issued high rankings in his version of Ono-ha itto-ryu - or, that Tokimune felt that the secret to Daito-ryu was in OIR. I hope the secret is something more than the hitoemi principle found in all Japanese martial arts! :D

I do agree that sword/weapon training is a critical element to understanding Japanese unarmed arts though.

BTW, Kondo Sensei was involved with the trademarking of Daito-ryu when Tokimune was still alive, and to my knowledge, has not taken any legal actions against anyone to date.

Mr. Fitzgerald, I see by your web page that you have sought out training under Okabayashi Sensei. Good luck with that. However, after reading your last post, I'm not sure you are helping him out much by identifying his art as "Hakuho ryu Aikijujutsu", then immediately re-identifying it as a branch of Daito-ryu: "( Hakuho Kai Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu )". How is that keeping him out of the politics?!?

Regards,


Nathan,

I don't want to take this thread off topic, but I wish to clarify a few points. The official name of the art is Hakuho Ryu Aikibudo. This is the way it's written on certificates and I have been corrected on two instances by Okabayashi Sensei, since I used to call it Aikijujutsu instead of Aikibudo.

Okabayashi Sensei was awarded Menkyo in 1985 by Tokimune in his version of Ono-ha Itto-ryu.

When it comes to the "secret" it does include hitoemi, but there are a few more concepts involved. I don't wish to elaborate on that not because I wish to keep a sense of mystery or mystique, but because as I have seen on countless posts here on e-budo, it is virtually impossible to explain in writing. Besides, I'm just a simple student whose understanding of what's going on in the techniques changes on a weekly basis.

Nathan Scott
28th May 2009, 20:51
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wagnerphysed
28th May 2009, 23:13
Going back to Nathan's earlier post and the statement Chris made about formal transmission...

IMO, a mainline art that is formally transmitted (speaking of koryu here), may have a paper headmaster that is not respected by peers in adjunct or parallel lines of that art. However, as can be seen in TSKSR, formal transmission retains the essence of an art that allows the next or future generations to learn the pieces necessary to relate the original combative elements of the art in a near perfect manner (I can't say perfect because I nor anyone else have actually seen the true combative applications of any of these arts). Both Otake sensei and the late Don Draeger were able to take what some had viewed as a lackluster koryu style and put the piss and vinegar back into it. No doubt this was a result of the formal and full transmission of the art across generations, despite any lack of combative intent in interim headmasters.

Sometimes, it's the practitioner who has access to the real/ true goods who can push the boundaries of an art while staying within the true essence of the ryu.

Nathan Scott
29th May 2009, 00:17
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