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John Lindsey
14th May 2001, 18:13
I would be interested in hearing how different traditions classify in the kata the names for the attacker and defender. For instance, some people use "Uke and Tori." Others use uchite and ukete.

Meik Skoss
14th May 2001, 18:30
Many koryu (those that involve weapons) use the terms "shidachi" and "uchidachi" for, respectively, the roles of "defender/performer/winner" and "attacker/partner/loser [of techniques]; "ukedachi" may also be seen, used in place of uchidachi, in some ryu.

A number of Muromachi and Edo period densho also use the terms "ware" (me/I) and "teki" (enemy), rather an interesting choice of words, but fully in keeping with the tenor of the periods.

For unarmed arts, "tori" and "uke" are common terms, although older books (Meiji, Taisho and early Showa-era) may use "ko," "otsu" and and "hei" -- ko being the shidachi/tori role, the others being that of the opponent or enemy.

Earl Hartman
14th May 2001, 22:26
Nagao Ryu Taijutsu refers to the attacker as "sashite" (thrusting/attacking hand) and the defender as "torite" (the hand that takes).

(on edit)

Oops. Sword forum. Never mind.

Ron Tisdale
15th May 2001, 15:44
In Yoshinkan aikido we use shite and uke. Are there any sword traditions that use these terms? On of the terms used above resembles shite (pronounced shtay, I believe) quite closely (sashite).
Ron Tisdale

chrismoses
15th May 2001, 16:26
Does anyone know where the term "aite" came from? My former school used this term for the attacker, I was never clear if it was better translated as partner or attacker or opponent. I also noticed this term used in the translation of "Budo Training in Aikido". Thanks.

Devon Smith
15th May 2001, 16:47
I believe "aite" means partner or companion.

Devon

ghp
15th May 2001, 19:35
Devon is correct -- aite [pronounced as "eye-tayh"] means partner. I'd have to see the kanji again (old brain!) to recall what the "ai~" means on its own; however, the "~te" portion means hand. Possibly "that in front of my hand."

Cheers,
Guy

p.s. read my new book Japanese in 20 Easy Years --


(Har!Just joking)

Nathan Scott
15th May 2001, 23:42
In our aiki buken, we use the terms "shite" and "uke", which appear to be older terms than what many aikido dojo use.

Many seem to use "tori" and "uke", if I remember correctly.

Shinkendo, we say "uchidachi" and "shidachi" for partnered forms that are more or less interactive. In other words, the attacker performs an attacking technique, and the defender performs a countering technique, etc.

For more "static", one sided partnered forms we use the terms "ukete" and "uchite" (receiving hand, striking hand). Specifically, these forms tend to be a situation in which ukete purely receives, and uchite purely strikes.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
15th May 2001, 23:53
Wow, you know you can only edit posts within five minutes of posting now? Harsh.

Anyway, I hit "submit" a little to hastily, and went off for a UCC coffee on ice.

In regards to the ukete/uchite reference, it might be more accurate to say (in shinkendo at least) that ukete only blocks/deflects, while uchite only attacks. No reversals or counter techniques.

FWIW,

Devon Smith
15th May 2001, 23:54
And just for good measure, Hakkoryu uses the terminology "tori" and "kake".

hyaku
16th May 2001, 01:24
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghp
[B]Devon is correct -- aite [pronounced as "eye-tayh"] means partner. I'd have to see the kanji again (old brain!) to recall what the "ai~" means on its own; however, the "~te" portion means hand. Possibly "that in front of my hand."

Cheers,
Guy

p.s. read my new book Japanese in 20 Easy Years --


(Har!Just joking)

...................

We use the word aite a lot but like the word okuyakusan even better.

Hyakutake Colin

Anders Pettersson
16th May 2001, 07:04
Since the topic seems to include also other arts than sword arts I thought I could add some.
In Shorinji Kempo we also use the word aite ?i?j for our partner/opponent.
Included the kanji for Guy, and as he states the te is same kanji as for hand, the first kanji could be translated as mutual/together (according to my dictionary anyway, my Japanese is far from good).

Aite is used quite a lot in the Shorinji Kempo Kyouhan, as well by Japanese teacher, when explaining techniques. But I think it is not very common among foreign teachers, they tend to use a translation in their own language.

The more common term for attacker and defender in Shorinji Kempo would be Kousha ?i?U?j and Shusha ?i?j.

Andrei Arefiev
16th May 2001, 07:47
In atarashii naginata's beginner-level kata (shikake-ooji) "the initiator is called 'SHIKAKE' and the defender is called 'OOJI'". I believe these are the same words as in "shikake (attack) waza" and "ooji (defense) waza" of kendo. I have no idea what terms are used in the advanced Zen Nihon Naginata Renmei kata.

Best regards,
Andrei "who just happens to have "Illustrated Naginata" close at hand" Arefiev