Flying armlock

[Waza]

I am in debate with another judoka about the legalities of the flying armlock. He says that it is legal if the technique is continued to the ground, though I have always understood it as it is not legal what so ever. I keep up to date with the rules (IJF) however this has me in question. Can someone help me out? Thank you.

[MarkF]

Ude-gaeshi -> When you throw with completing any Kansetsu-waza, it is not regarded as nage-waza.
When you throw without completing any Kansetsu-waza, then it is regarded as "Yoko-wakare".


http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/index.html

This is the Kodokan's position on at least one of the so-called jumping, or flying elbow locks. I don't know the IJF's official position today, but last I checked completing the arm lock and by that throwing the opponent is not a score (by nagewaza, and no ippon, waza-ari can be scored).

In my local state division, it is frowned on, and is left to the shinban or line judges' (in such tourments with line judges) calls.
*****

There are some interesting positions on some things as of April, 1997, such as the name "hon kesa gatame" now not being recognized. It is simply kesa gatame as most of us have been calling it.

That one is "ticky-tack" but others would be, e.g., ippon seoinage being recognized, along with sode tsuri komi goshi, as "new" waza as of April 97, are interesting, if a little stodgy in the time it took to say anything.

Mark

[Waza]

Thank you Mark,

With all due respect to the Kodokan, I am interested in the opinion that counts as far as rules are concerned. That would be the IJF. Whenever I have reffed, whether it be the local, or regional level. I was always informed that any type of flying armlock was against the rules, which were supposedly that of the IJFs.

[Bob Steinkraus]

If it helps, there is a photo sequence in Neil Adams' book Armlocks showing a Russian applying (and winning) with a flying armlock. This was in the European Championships, which should AFAIK be under IJF rules.

One of my senseis (Dick Soliva) used to win a lot with a flying armlock, including in US national competition. Of course, this was in the 70s, so I have no idea if things have changed since then.

[dakotajudo]

Some links that may help.

http://www.csprings.com/usja/ijfchang.htm
http://www.ijf.org/rules/re-cr.html
http://www.usjudo.org/referee.html

It appears that taking an opponent down directly with wakigatame or throwing using wakigatame is illegal, but I've seen nothing about throws like a flying jujigatame.

Peter

[MarkF]

For one thing, no NGB has to follow all IJF rules, especially in local, regional, etc., tournaments. The IJF is the standard for contests, but they also state plainly that the rule does not have to be applied.

That said, many people think it is to avoid injury, and it probably does where it is prohibited, but the problem lays in just what type of score to give on any joint lock, including "jumping juji" if a person is thrown hard enough to the mat for a score.

I was referring in my previous post to jumping juji, but it comes down to whether it can be scored. The armlock can be, but only on submission, the jumping juji is usually taken up by the more local people, e.g., USJF/USJI.
*****

Waza (Please sign with your name, btw),

Some rules are vague. For example, those rules which may penalize with hansokumake for "breaking the spirit of Judo." This is an example:

xxix) To fall directly to the mat while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as waki-gatame.

I think this is intentional, and gives the shinban and other judges the responsiility of making sure the "such as waki-gatame" is enforced. Sometimes, it falls in a gray area, so it depends on who and where.

Also..."Picking up and slamming the opponent back onto the mat."

So is a koshiwaza such as dakiage prohibited if the hip[s] are used correctly in doing this waza? The Kodokan says so in more detail, by saying"dakiage" is not permitted in randori or shiai."


I don't think the Kodokan is wrong here, nor does it conflict with the IJF. The Kodokan simply does not recognize koka, and it does hold its own shiai so their opinion does count.

But as Bob has implied, and others have also, it seems to be a judgment call, but with the IJF, I think the jumping juji is prohibited, and pretty closely can be compared to the Kodokan's opinion on the matter.

Mark

[kusanku]

Flying or jumping or dropping armlocks are good for self defense in some cases, but in shiai I always called those a dropping arm break.:D

'Jumping juji gatame!' sounds like a good expression of astonishment upon seeing one.

By the way, as a spectator in Judo nowadays, I hate that koka and yuko stuff, it really messes up tournaments.

For the new judo kata being contemplated, the twenty first century addition to goshinjutsu no kata,called millenium goshin jutsu no kata or just Oh My Gosh in jutsu,the flying arm, leg and ear and toe locks should be fine.:-)

I'm not so sure about the chest hair dakiage though.

Or the lift pull Lip Throw, either, come to that.

The Scalp Munch, however shows some promise, and the wakikubi( armpit to neck) entry for kata guruma too.

The proscribed grip of the gi at groin, that needs to be kept in self defense for sure.

As does the inverted kani basami.which sets a downed opponent back on their feet so you can do more stuff to them.:-)

Or was I supposed to mention that the new committee is working on these? Any volunteers to help test the waza for safety? We know they are effective already, not sayin' How we know, y'unnerstan', but we Do know.:D

Dang, if you had some gullible judoka, you sure could have some fun with those, though.:D

And I can't believe that only now are ippon seoinage and sode tsurikomigoshi recognized officially as techniques, I used to use 'em both in shiai back in '67.As did we all.
This is too much fun, it must be wrong!

[MarkF]

I also ref local and state tournaments, but much of what the IJF says is "the rule" is plainly out of place for the friendly invitational, or regionals which lead to state tournaments (there are changes at the state level, especially in sanctioned events).

If you read the article link on my post concerning the opinions on some of the rules (as of 01 january 2001), you can see why more doesn't necessarily mean better.

Mark

[MarkF]

Now that is fine judo etiquette John.:D I only wish the stodgy and wrong-judoka-gets-the-score-refs could see how, uh,... stopped up some actually look.

Chest hair dakiage. If you get' em off the ground with it, I'll score it Ippon.:)


By the way, as a spectator in Judo nowadays, I hate that koka and yuko stuff, it really messes up tournaments.



I agree, btw. An argument CAN be made for the yuko stuff, but to me, it is either waza-ari or it isn't. As for Koka, it needs to be corked.

There is a good reason for doing things the old way. There is TIME to put on a good shiai. Senior men (BBs) can go at least ten minutes, and sometimes more, if there were not so many stoppages. Women could fight in the men's division which they were when I began (sorry, I out "rank" you).
****

On a more serious note, and even those with the GBs agree, there is just too much for the officials to do, and not enough for the players.

My battle call: LET THEM FIGHT

Mark

[kusanku]

Mark- I agree. Cutting edge judo, let'em go at it!Women, men, rank and all!:-)

Good ole Shiai rules.

And I'll work on that chest hair dakiage, I hear one can get quite a rise out of it.

If you know what I mean.

Kind of like, If Mark Twain had been the founder of judo, rather than Jigoro Kano- think of the possibillities.

Eighth of a point, bah!What's next, I give them a disconcerting look and get one sixteenth of a point if they blink?

It's comin, I know it is!

[dakotajudo]

Here's an idea I've had, w.r.t. koka scores, I'll throw out for opinions.

I noticed watching freestyle wrestling that penalty points for stalling(passivity) are rarely given. Instead, the wrestlers are restarted in a position giving the offended party an opportunity to score (par terre, or an upper body lock as with Karelin's match).

Maybe the same should be added to judo. There seem to be a lot of matches lost on negative judo penalties (Jimmy Pedro lost on a grip call). A lot of the penalties come from excessive defensive fighting.

In the case of passivity, why not restart the match after allowing the offended judoka to get his grip. The offender is required to stand in place while the offended judoka establishes a grip.

A judoka up in score by a waza-ari can give up a stalling koka. Would he be so inclined if it meant giving up the grip?

Anyway, just something that came to mind.

Peter

[kusanku]

Well, as I see it, on the one hand it might be a powerful motivator, but on the other it makes more interference by the refs in a sport already loaded with regs that do that.

If we could get back to the original idea of shiai being for development of yourself and the other player,or even being a simulated combat with rules and strict ones for safety, then maybe we could get soemwhere.

Thing is, I like the ippon, and the waza ari also reflect reality, but when we get all the way to the koka,its overboard imo.

It becomes an excuse not for sloppy judo alone, which many accused the waza ari of being( not without some small justification as some contestants used it as an excuse for that, but often those would lose by ippon:-), but in the case of the koka and of the yuko as an excuse for ineffectve judo and still building up, one way or the other, points for winning the match.

Now fgranted the reason to enter shiai is to try yourself and your judo, and to win, if you can only win by doing good judo, as defined by majority concensus as what is good judo,then whatever rules are implemented shoud mitigate for good judo being done, and not for people that can't even decently effect kuzushi on the opponent.

Judo started in the Sixties to use too much beef and not enough Kano.

What is now seen, with these rules and changes, and kokas and yukos and coming soon,the sixteenth of a point for a good strong glare that makes the uke freeze for an instant, do it sixteen times and you win the match,
is something other than the optimum rules for good judo.

In one sense, prep for shiai has taken over the art, and in another, demands from probably parents of judo kids has resulted in too many lousy rules.

I think waza ari is okay, but after that, we went too far, or youse guys did after I mostly left.:D

[kusanku]

Otheriwse , we can soo implement the new techniques , including all the ones mentioned above plus the Eyebrow Holddown,The Earlobe Twist( catch me if you can, ref:-) and the FLying ankle Drop-Lock with followup hara jime or Stomach Choke( don't ask.Its one of the new Smothering techniques soon to be allowed and suitable for sumotori who join judo.)

The jumping Dai Sharin Juji Jime( cartwheel x-choke) and the followup Knee tomoe nage( guaranteed to stop the match first time, every time:D) are also being considered for legality.

The ura osoto-o goshi combo only counts if uke lands flat on his face.

No one said we can't spice it up a little, if we are gonna make changes, let's make changes.

Finally, the Mambo Munch is now legal, being a combination of gi grabbing and manipulating to brazilian Dance step footwork.

How you BJJ guys like Them apples?Salsa Judo!

[MarkF]

John,
are you having just a little too much fun at the expense of the competitor who has no fault in this?


Originally posted by kusanku
What is now seen, with these rules and changes, and kokas and yukos and coming soon,the sixteenth of a point for a good strong glare that makes the uke freeze for an instant, do it sixteen times and you win the match,
is something other than the optimum rules for good judo.



Ahh, got some news for you. Koka may be an eighth point, and yuko a quarter, but in neither case can you add them up to Ippon.

Whether it makes sense at all, the truth is, one can add up one-thousand koka and it means nothing. If your opponent has one waza-ari, he wins over the one-thousand koka. Same with yuko, four do not add up to Ippon. Match continues until time runs out. As in freestyle, the one with the most points wins. It also is the same in comparing those same one-thousand koka to one yuko, the yuko wins.
******

There is a saying in boxing which also says something about judo (btw: Judo IS a combative sport, the same as boxing but without the bucks):

"The best referee in boxing is one you don't remember being in the ring." IOW, they let them fight, or they should.
*****

Karelin, btw, is a Greco-Roman stylist, and he lost the gold because his hold with the hands was broken for a split second. Freestyle is another matter.
*****

Back in the sixties, the ref would break a match which had nothing more than gripping, or little or no play, and bring the participants brought back to the original ma-ai, and told them to start fighting. When line officials were used, they raised the flag of the opponent who applied the most attempts, or the one who applied one over none.

But I see more changes coming, or at least more explanations and when to apply what score or non-score. They have all ready changed the "pointing" to the one who scored from one finger, to three, I think (yeah, I hear the snickers now). You can read all about it in the thread I started concerning newer rules, etc., for January 2001 and the opinions and explanations of what some mean and don't mean.
****

Here's another for you to ponder, John. While eight koka doesn't score Ippon, four shido give the opponent, four koka, and the match is stopped as four shido is the equivalent of giving the offended player four koka, while the offender is given Hankosumake, or banishment. At least, that is the effect.

Bottom line is that it isn't the judoka's fault, with the exception of the pitty-pat grips one sees today. Why is it that a grip makes a player feel that s/he is in some kind of horrible predicament? Again, I think it lies in the rules. The officials allow this to go on, by penalizing, which result in the other judoka scoring koka, etc.

I think a good result can be had if the ref simply asked "Are you going to fight or not?" NO? You're disqualified." After one warning of not taking a grip, or avoiding one, that should be enough.

There are simply too many rules, and as much as the Kodokan recognizes yuko (it does take the pressure of the official who thinks one should score something), the official is "seen" a lot less in a match.

I loved competing and did it for nearly twenty years, but today, as an example, with uchi mata in mind, there is a "no diving" rule, to prevent head injury. Heart is in the right place, but is beating irregularly.

I teach the younger ones how to fight on the ground by letting them wrestle as they want, only inserting a technique when appropriate. When one does learn how to get the advantage, then begin to compete, they like osaekomiwaza. But the rules in the international events are taking that portion of judo away. It isn't their (the refs) fault, and is another rule addressed (passivity penalties coming too soon on the mat) in the same link on the same post.
*******

But hey, I like your intuition into what is coming. So be it. The truly great judoka don't need to score koka, they win by Ippon, or at least waza-ari, and as it implies "A technique has happened!"

As to judo changing since the sixties, I've talkes with some who have been around since the thirties, and say that, after the war, judo was never the same. Going further than that, in the 1930s at the Kodokan, one older judoka was heard to remark "This isn't MY judo."

But if I didn't love it, I wouldn't still participate. The judo dojo is a place for fun, learning, and hard training. It is also a very comforting place to be.

Is there really a difference in a judo match with rules, and combat with rules? I don't think so. It does give one a chance to use what they've learned, and to find out how when it doesn't work. One can retreat to the "Place of Learning" to improve one's chances of winning the attack.

Mark

[Ben Reinhardt]

Hello Gentlemen,

Flying or Jumping Juji Gatame is a legal technique under the current IJF rules. There is some debate at times as to whether or not one can legally apply the lock and get a submission while tori is still off the ground. I can say I have seen the technique done in shiai several times, and on at least two of them, the submission occured before tori or uke went to ground. The referees were IJF A level on the mat.

The Waki Gatami rule was written specifically to stop people from doing it or similar techniques and falling straight onto uke's arm, giving uke no chance to give up. Juji Gatame is not like Waki Gatame. Neither is Ude Gaeshi applied as an armlock to take uke to the mat.

One can legally take uke to the mat with a elbow joint technique, uke just has to have a chance to give up.

Regarding all the koka yuko stuff, it was added because Olympic Judo is a sport, and thus you have to have a way to distinguish a winner in close matches that is less subjective than the referees decision.

Indeed the a NGB or any other group does not have to follow IJF rules to the letter. In some California yudanshakai (USJF organizations) I have been told that no kansetsu is allowed up to shodan ! A bit extreme in my opinion. However, the manner in which any of the organizations associated with USA Judo (the NGB) can modify the rules and still maintain a sanction (and thus liability insurance) are somewhat limited.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

[kusanku]

Mark, Ben-

All sounds pretty good.

I still think we should give a point to someone who can freeze the opponent with a good glare. Ganseki waza!

Yes, Judo is a combat sport.

As for the pitty pat and no matwork that you see in the Olymp[ics. Gah!

What ever happend to the hands up inna air with a big kiai, walk in and grab on?

Man, that was the wayto have an exciting match!:D

Okay , sometimes a quick match, too, I grant you that.If the other judoka was better'n you at throwing, over you went, but hey, that gave everyone something to work towards.

I'm glad to hear the waza ari beats the yuko and so forth.That's good.

Anyway, I'm all for judo, actually I think every kid in America, male or female, should be taught it in school from kindergarten on through at least eighth grade or ninth grade, and then in High School, they could continue judo or do another art.Not karate until college, maybe Taiji or Aikido..,I think it would do a lot of good.

Bet it would lower the street assault rate like you wouldn't believe.Time somebody had eight years of good Kodokan type including kata judo as P.E., people would be healthy, able and no one to fool around with.

One might say, the crooks would be judoka too, and that is true, but so what, there would be a level field.

Besides, you wouldn't know if the person you were about to jump might be a yondan or beter.Or what else they might be able to do.

Might even be you might be reluctant to jump anyone for knowledge of what could well happen to you.:-)

Kind of like walking up to the newbie in the dojo and offering randori.Could be in for a terrible surprise.

But that is what i think judo should be for, education, like Dr. Kano wanted.Hey, it helped me, and even though for almost thirty years I have done karate, the lessons of judo are always with me.

They can be applied in many ways.So judo, is all right, with me, always.

[MarkF]

Anyway, I'm all for judo, actually I think every kid in America, male or female, should be taught it in school from kindergarten on through at least eighth grade or ninth grade, and then in High School, they could continue judo or do another art.Not karate until college, maybe Taiji or Aikido..,I think it would do a lot of good.

Actually, one idea you mentioned get's a gold star. Those who have been through the wars should probably do some Taiji. Those who begin to complain of the damage brought on by judo or any MA, Taiji could be the answer. It is perfect for those over forty and have injured every joint in the body, or fifty when it just got to be too much period.

Even with the complaints most don't walk away, and even those who do, are looking for something similar. Some call it a "Foundation for other MA" and I've no problem with that. Some are even coming back or are adding judo for one reason or another.

Off hand (or on the cuff), bet the judoka against the boxer.:p

Mark

[kusanku]

Been don' Taiji for eight years now, still a newbie , but for the very reasons you state.

It brings back what you wouldn't think could be brought back.

And I'll always bet the judoka against the boxer.And the judoka who knows some karate against the karateka only.

And the karateka who knows some boxing against a boxer, but that is another story.:DSuffice to say that elbow strikes are very effective and boxers also think so.After they see one reallly close that is.

Hint: If you go into a clinch with a boxer, they will clinch with you. Judoka, can you think of anything todo when someone grabs you under the amrs and ties their own hands up?I thought so.

Some little time back, I did some presentations for some martial arts people, on combat applications of their arts, and when we came to the Judo portion,where I would show weaknesses in torunament as opposed to old style, karate, I would finish up with 'Learn Judo or be forever vulnerable!':D

Used to ask who knew how to fall and find a mat, and demo ko uchi gari makikomi, your( everyone's) favorite nasty trick and mine:D against a jkd or karate guy in a front leg weighted fighting stance.Hee!I'd roll over the top to be nice, of course, and elbow or backfist on the way over so they noticed.

Or once when a big karate sandan grabs me (by the lapels) and says, Okay, karate, nerve points, are fine when you fight some wimp, but I;m an ex football player, and no one knocks my hands off, what are you gonna do?'

I noticed some tatami type things inthe corner, and said, are those judo mats? Upon the affrmative answer, I suggested we adjourn thereto, for enlightenment.

So over we go, big man still grabbin' my lapels( my lapels, yet, judofolk!:-), and I said, now can you fall? He says, I am a football player, I can fall.'

I said, very good. Now this is called sode tsurikomi goshi, and dumped him for ippon.:-)

I love judo.

He gets up and says, Hey, Do that again!

I Love Judo.I said, How's about something a little different? He says, Okay, and we do O soto makikomi.

He calls all the other black belts over, and says, 'Come here, guys, you got to feel this stuff!"

There were about twelve of them.I Love Judo.:D

We didn't go through the Whole Go Kyo, but we did go through at least a third of it, including all known sacrifice throws.and also did a few outsiders, some makikomi and like that. Hey, even uki waza.

They even liked it, and I sure did have fun.Never been to a Judo dojo where everyone was that easy, I'll tell you that for nothing.

Put that Big sucker in a hara gatame, just to show who was boss. He even thought that was funny, on him, after I let him loose again.

These guys would grab good and hard and had no idea how to maintain balance against kuzushi, especially the subtle thumb and forefinger small circle type.

This was of course, a couple years before the UFC.But I already knew what was going to happen there.

Where else can a judo sankyu have so much fun?Course, they wanted to see advanced karate applications, and I don't think we ever did get to those.

Just amazed by basic Judo, they were..

One guy said, I didn't think Judo had punches and kicks.I said, well, it does.:-)

Really.

[MarkF]

You can walk into some judo clubs and the sandan will tell you the same thing the football player did.

Bet the Judo-ka in that one.

Football is a combative sport, too,
*****

An old school jujutsu guy, in an interview which appeared in Black Belt Magazine, said a number of quotable things about judo.

He said "The sankyu knows what the sandan knows, the sandan just knows it better."

A friend said recently, in response to that: "The sankyu knows what the sandan knows: the sandan just brags about it more."

I'd say both were right, but the more current version has subtance, the former had wishful thinking.:p

Really.

Mark

[kusanku]

'You can walk into some Judo clubs, and the snadan there will tell you what the football player did.'

Yeah, and be able toback it up, as long as he doesn't use muscle judo.

Of course, that's when one must use *Seekret Wazzers* of ancient Kah-Roddy to distract him long enough to get the Hell out of there.Failing that, offer to send out for a Supreme Pizza and all focus will go to food, for maintenace of the infamous JudoGut.

'Bet the judoka on that one.'

Bet on me, the odds will be better if you win.:-)

'Football is a combat sport too.'

Yes it is and I didn't try to out tackle the man, I would have lost.

Never, ever play the other fellas game less'n you are better at it than they are.

'The sankyu knows what the sandan knows, the sandan just knows it better.'

After learning the final throw of Tani Otoshi, my teacher told me,'you know everything I do, you just have to practice it more."

Weell, I did learn the curriculum alright, but...

'The sankyu knows what the sandan knows,the sandan just brags about it more.'

I've heard it both ways.

'The former had wishful thinking.'

Never believed it either way myself.The sandan will in general, always whip the sankyu.Because of at least the way we used to get promoted.

Now at your cross training, I still think you couda dumped the karate guy, but his ready tsuki was a psychin' you out.

Karate 'n' Judo people always do that to one another, the karate people always think the judoka will throw and kill them, whereas the judoka think the karateka will destroy them with but one technique.

Sad part is, depending on the individual, they could both well be right.

Best thing is, learn at least one real well, and gain some proficiency in the other, and as me old teacher told me, if you learn karate and judo, you pretty much cover unarmed martial arts.

Fact is, after all those year, I am still not as good as my Judo teacher was, and probably never will be, now.

Do the sandans brag more?I heard one stand up and say, 'A good judoka practices his favorite waza three thousand times a day.'

Must be very few good judoka.:D

But I do love Judo.
Really.:-)

[MarkF]

John,
Actually, as of late, I have been doing a little karate. Since the Bluming seminar, I've had some help from one of my students who does Goju. I am beginning learn to block those punches, as before, I completey lost the center in trying to overblock. Now I'm working on a softer version, as someone told me "missing by an inch is just as good as missing by a mile. They both miss. You just need to center and have courage to not blink when the punch goes whizzing by the ear." I also am practicing (or trying to) some thai kickboxing kicks and that version of yoko gake. This one hurts a lot.

I'm finding my brain has lost some cells connected with the download of pain as it doesn't hurt for a couple of days. The bruises are there, but like out sagging bodies, gravity is the real killer.:D

BTW: There is a throw called ganseki nage or ganseki waza, but I don't think it a judo throw. If Brian Griffin is lurking, he is the one who mentioned it a while ago.

Brian?

Mark

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by MarkF


BTW: There is a throw called ganseki nage or ganseki waza, but I don't think it a judo throw. If Brian Griffin is lurking, he is the one who mentioned it a while ago.

Brian?

Mark

Bujinkan has a throw called ganseki nage. From what I remember, it is typically done from an underhook with your tsurite, and no hikite. The finish can be like tai-otoshi, or koshi-guruma, depending on how much you rotate on your hips, versus how much forward (from uke's point of view) projection you apply.

Peter

[R Erman]

Peter didn't mention that it is a pretty sweet throw, too. I was taught the throw years ago without a name before I saw it in the booj(the aiki system that I studied had a heavy koryu jujutsu influence). Now when I show/practice it I call it Ganseki nage for lack of another name.

It's a fundamental throw in the bujinkan, and probably almost as well known as their oni kudaki(demon crusher), a nasty version of an ude garami throw, at least that's how I would describe it.

[kusanku]

Mark and guys-
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that one, I know that throw from Jiuitsu, it was called an underarm hip throw..

A waki kake koshi nage or some such.

Mark-
'Ive been doing some karate...learningto block those punches now, not overblock.. student of Goju ryu.'

Excellent, excellent!Goju like the other Okinawan systems is quite a practical approach.All Okinawa styles basicall share similar or indentical threory, differences notwithstanding in execution.Yes, in blocking , one need only cause the punch to miss the body, by the closer amount, the better.

One trains to end the blocking maneuver at the outer line of the torso, or the leg, but when blocking the head, leave the amount that you elave for torso because of the shoulder width anyway, and also because you don't risk the head.

Addding tai sabaki to blocking increases safety margin and effectiveness of block.

Scooping blocks are simlar to when we scoop a leg in judo for a tomoe attempt counter,and parrries a la gojuryu's tensho kata(ask our frineed if haven't see yet) use a hooking or a pushing movement to redirect thre arm attacks.and off balance the opponent.

It is a wonderful thing when karate and judo begin to mesh.Mr. Bluming is an example of what can be done when they do.

Main thing in blocking, think like judo, its a circle or a semi circle, in , out , up or down, and ponly enoughto get the job done,overblocking or underblocking exposes vital targets as you know.A good way to trainnthis is with a partner holding a straight staff or even a broomstick, parallel to the ground, and at the centerline of the body, and practice blocks at all levels, moving the stick to the outside edge of the body, and no farther.This drill goes back to China when they used a branch of a tree to master blocking.

You, this should take at most,inn view of your judo experience, a few months, one year tops, and you will have it down, and then when karateka other than Bluming or like him, come to play, you can go ahead and dump 'em without fear of the retaliation.

Normal time to get it down is one year intensive, three years not.

Goju ryu contains a marvelous blocking kata, called Tensho, meaning to rotate the wrist.Ask your friend to teach it to you, he undoubtedly knows it.

It is such a kata as you can in fact do two person with a partner as a preparation for karate sparring.Which, if you get this one down, can be fun.:-)

For goshinjutsu blocking, block the attacking lib twice, double strike with first one arm, then then the other.Hit with a PoPop!rhythm. That'll keepthe limb extended and let you lock on,pass under or over the first hit with the second and lock on with the original blocking hand. and you know what to do from there on in.:D

Your friend,
John

[MarkF]

Thanks, John.:) Another friend has given me tips via the Internet, and I wouldn't have believed it, but it actually made things clearer to me then when watching it done and practicing it.

Tensho is famiar enough that I have an idea, and the scooping, well, try to keep a judo guy from grabbing that leg everytime it comes at you. Sweeping the other leg out was hard to stop, too.:) I know, illegal, but when you grow up with guys like LeBell, its hard not to pick up a few things.

So thanks for the kind words.

Best Regards,

Mark

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by MarkF
BTW: There is a throw called ganseki nage or ganseki waza, but I don't think it a judo throw.
Mifune would disagree with you, since it appears in his Canon of Judo.
The name of the throw is ganseki otoshi.
Takagaki & Sharp included it in their Techniques of Judo, also.

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Brian Griffin

Mifune would disagree with you, since it appears in his Canon of Judo.
The name of the throw is ganseki otoshi.
Takagaki & Sharp included it in their Techniques of Judo, also.

Except that ganseki-otoshi is a variation similar to seio-otoshi, while ganseki-nage is general purpose 'major' throw.

Mechanically the two throws are very different and only share part of a name.

Judo seems to 'split' nage-waza into different names, while Bujinkan 'lumps' a lot of henka under a single name. Thus, the ganzeki-nage name can apply to throws as different as tai-otoshi, koshi-guruma and uki-goshi.

Peter

[kusanku]

Mark- you're welcome, that will genuinely work, especiallly the tensho stuff, the double strike block then lock, and the staff blocking drill.

As someone famous never said, 'Of my Judo, all that can be said is that it has served me well n contess with those not therein proficient, but of karate, , ah, another tale we could tell.:-)

Perhaps I would not actually cause Kano or Mifune to ask what it was I was doing,:D, but in the Okinawan empty hand arts, it can be modestly enough said, that those proficient would in fact, know what it was.

Farther than this, I shall not for the present venture.Especially if Bluming has ears here on this board.:-)

There is a man, whom not many if any can match in either the gentle art of the hard style of the empty hand.Nor do many try.

Fun is fun but one must be honest.

Peter: Ganseki Otoshi, I remember that book, and we did the throw too, not much like the other at all.Kind of like a mean seoi, no?

Both mean Rock Drop, I think.

Regards,

[MarkF]

It would mean Stone drop throw. Since I've read only parts of Cannon of Judo, I apologize for not knowing the throw, only that a throw of that name existed. Hell, I may have just picked it up from the Budo taijutsu people.

Mark

PS: Thanks, Brian, for updating me.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by dakotajudo
Except that ganseki-otoshi is a variation similar to seio-otoshi,...That's one way to do it. There are also versions similar to seoinage and koshiguruma.
...while ganseki-nage is general purpose 'major' throw.
Mechanically the two throws are very different and only share part of a name.The question was about the name of a throw I had brought up in a thread last September.
That throw was ganseki otoshi.
Judo seems to 'split' nage-waza into different names, while Bujinkan 'lumps' a lot of henka under a single name. Thus, the ganzeki-nage name can apply to throws as different as tai-otoshi, koshi-guruma and uki-goshi.Sounds to me like gansekinage means "throw any way you can, as long as you have a near-side underhook."

Judo has a few throws that are defined more by the grip involved than by the principle of motion (gansekiotoshi, yama arashi, obitorigaeshi, obiotoshi), but most throws are defined by certain motions/levers etc. and can be accomplished from a (sometimes bewildering!) variety of grips.

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by MarkF
It would mean Stone drop throw. Since I've read only parts of Cannon of Judo, I apologize for not knowing the throw, only that a throw of that name existed. Hell, I may have just picked it up from the Budo taijutsu people.

Mark

PS: Thanks, Brian, for updating me.

"The A-Z of Judo" by Syd Hoare lists about every named technique from multiple historical sources, include Canon of Judo, and books by Koizumi, Kashiwazaki, Oda, Kotani and Kudo.

The book lists >100 named throws and >90 ne-waza. Pretty good reference.

His description of ganseki-otoshi
"This is a hand throw which looks very much like a seio-nage or seio-otoshi. The thrower holds both lapels close to the opponents neck. Pivoting round he then drops down, placing either the right knee or both knees on the mat and throws his opponent over head and shoulders. It can also be done without dropping to the knees."

Takagaki and Sharps description of this doesn't involve a double-lapel grip, but does have the drop to a knee.

Peter

[MarkF]

Thanks, Peter. That sounds like the description Brian gave a while back, and yes it is a great reference for such. I don't own one. My mistake for putting things off.

I did pick up a couple others, though, just not reference books, and I couldn't afford the auction price on Canon of Judo, either. Things like that make you want to kick yourself when the mind and body goes.:)

Mark