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Emil
17th May 2001, 22:34
I have made the decision to study martial arts. I would appreciate any feedback from those who have knowledge and experience in Aikido. I have done a little research and it appears that Aikido could be the most suitable form for me, but there are some questions. Aikido drew my attention for several reasons. I have been a police officer for about 10 years and a few incidents recently have alerted me that my unarmed self defense and control skills are lacking. I have become involved in some confrontations that have escalated into uses of force which I later believed could have been avoidable had my empty hand skills been better. As I understand it, Aikido is based more on control and diversion of attack rather than a more offensive approach. I also have noted that many of the empty hand techniques used in police defensive tactics are quite similar to Aikido techniques. This is favorable because the defensive moves in Aikido would blend well with other 'approved' tactics. This was the first aspect that drew me. I also am drawn to Aikido because of the many spiritual aspects. From what I have read the aspects of self-awareness that Aikido fosters would also benefit me. I am a Catholic person and would not view Aikido as any type of religious faith, but it appears that the teachings of Aikido seem to go rather well with my personal beliefs. I see the values and spitiual aspects as beneficial, in many ways. But these are my concerns. I am 33 years old and in good-but not great physical shape. I am 5-11 and about 198. I feel that I am about 10-15 lbs overweight. With that said my concern is I have knee problems. I am able to run, jump, and move without problem, but my knees ache a lot. My flexability has always been minimal and I am in pain whenever I kneel or hold my legs in a bent position. I attempted to assume the Aikido sitting position which I saw a picture of and I was unable to do it. I could not become relaxed and was in pain. I see this as a potential problem. Will this prevent me from studying Aikido, or participating in it? I would believe so. I am very enthusiastic, but at times my body is not.... My other concern is the time required to become proficient. I don't have a lot of extra time on my hands. I believe that I would be able to train once a week without neglecting my family and job. Is this enough? I am asking for as much feedback as I can get. I take this step very seriously and I refuse to begin unless I can be sure to give it full effort and respect. What other forms might be better for me? I want to fully research myself and my options so that I can make a sound decision. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, Thank You.

Stephenjudoka
18th May 2001, 00:02
Emil,

Aikido would fit nicely with your defensive tactics.
I have had knee problems for years but this can be overcome.
However I am not sure that training once a week would be of great benefit. Whatever M/A or sport you choose I do not think once a week for training would be of great help.

To become profficient at anything you must practice - there is no such thing as a quick fix.
I may be corrected on this.
I wish you luck on your journey to find a suitable M/A.
I have studied M/A for over thirty years and found them to be very helpful for my job and survival.

Let us know what you M/A you choose.

Stephen Sweetlove

PRehse
18th May 2001, 00:05
I can only suggest you try. I don't think once a week is enough but one of my best students does exactly that. Try Aikido once a week for a year and you will have your answer. At the very least you will gain some technique.

I would give the same answer to any martial art but Aikido, from how you described yourself, might fit the best.


Originally posted by Emil
I have made the decision to study martial arts. I would appreciate any feedback from those who have knowledge and experience in Aikido.

Chad Bruttomesso
18th May 2001, 00:52
Emil,

Look around, try different dojos and find what works for you. This is how I found dojos throughout the world.

Also, please use your full name when posting. This is one of the rules here on E-Budo. You can do this through a signature or manually. Thank you for your understanding.

Thank you,

M Clarke
18th May 2001, 03:31
Emil,
I also get some pain in the knees, but much less for doing aikido. Also some of the arthritis/joint foods along with fish oil help the joints very well. Recently I have heard that excercising the knees (half bends, small rotations) like any other part of the body will be beneficial. Another point, one of the first things the practice of aikido does is change your body - more flexible, more dense, that sort of thing. But takes a while. You gotta stretch generally - good for your long term mobility and quality of life. Agree with the others that once a week enough when starting out with any MA. Trouble with MA is it requires a certain sacrifice from you - more you commit, more you get in return. Just my two cents worth. Good luck with whatever you do.

Gil Gillespie
18th May 2001, 04:14
All of the above cautions and encouragements are valid, and not really mutually exclusive. The one that will impact your endeavor most is training only once a week. Such a truncated schedule can maintain a longterm MA career in a pinch, but it would be self-defeating to a beginner. The "reps" necessary to train the body to move as second nature would be difficult to acquire.

Which is not to say don't try. Once you've cleared the ultimate hurdle of finding an instructor and style with which you're comfortable, then commit! The key for you will be to augment your class time with your own personal DAILY training regimen: your jishugeiko. At first just incorporate the warmup exersises you learn in class, especially those which loosen the knees and strengthen those muscles. Proceed slowly------don't stretch a cold rubber band & don't burn out.

Later add basic aikido movement exersises, i.e. tenkan (turning), exersises to promote a stable center, basic weapons handling. All these will accrue during your training. It's critical for you to establish a daily routine asap then stick. Like the wrestling coach said in "Garp:" You gotta GET obsessed and STAY obsessed.

Refine your jishugeiko for content & time. Can you afford an hour each morning? Or only 20 minutes. Attending class only once a week your jishugeiko will become your instructor. Down the road you'll find you can't do without it. And with aikido itself.

Honest.

Emil
18th May 2001, 04:30
Just what I expected: a lot of good info. Everyone seems to agree upon the fact that good training will require more of a commitment from me, and I agree. With all of the homework I'm doing on this topic it is clear that I am preparing myself for that commitment. I am also pleased to hear that I'm not the only guy out there with bum knees. I have been told in the past that it could be lack of stress and flexing that has contributed to the problem. But if this type of training helps to increase flexibility and mobility, then thats just one more bonus. For those who train in Aikido regularly, what is the training schedule you use? I've heard that once or twice a week was the average that people train, unless they are involved as instructors. Also, are there any other forms of martial arts which I should investigate before beginning? As I understand it, the different disciplines are not only different in reference to regions of origin, but also in manner which they are applied. For instance, some forms are more suited to kicks and strikes, where as Aikido is manipulating a foe's own power and momentum. The reason I ask is, as stated previous, there are issues of limited mobility in the legs. With this in mind, are there others types of martial arts that I should check into? It seems that Aikido is becoming the obvious choice. From what I've observed on this board there are a lot of folks with a great deal of knowledge on this topic. Thank you everyone for passing a bit of your knowledge on to me, and any additional information I would greatly appreciate. Thanks again.

MarkF
18th May 2001, 09:59
Hi, Emil,
You can probably get more advice on the care of your knees/joints in the "budo and the body" forum, but have you tried Glucosamine for overall relief of symptoms? MDs are pushing it these days because it does work. It can actually reverse the course your joints are taking and aid in rebuilding cartilidge. Take it with Chondroitin and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane). I think you will find some relief, but it isn't a gross-relief type regimen. Time it takes, but it does help. I've been taking Glucosamine for a few years now, and my problems have all but disappeared. Sometimes, I think I can actually move.:)

Almost all MA are going to be rough going on the body. Those that got there, know what I mean. As far as the body and MA, once a week may put more strain than doing it four days a week. Too much time in between classes can add to your woes.

I know that some who post here teach at academies to LEO on duty, but perhaps a course with someone who specializes in teaching police arrest techniques in a relatively short course would be more constructive, especially for the reasons, other than aches and pains, you state. There are many MA-types who do this, and aikido seems to be the MA of choice for that purpose. After such a course, you can continue for however much time you can give it.
*****

Perhaps someone here can recommend someone in your area?

As to other MA, all use the knees, albeit in different manners, but shoulder, hand, and knee problems seem to top most people's list for common excessive wear problems. In this, you will be amonst friends.

I would recommend you find the right teacher rather than the right martial art, but you seem pretty set on it. That's fine, but it does limit the search a little.

Hope you find what you need.

Mark

Scott
18th May 2001, 11:32
Emil,

I have been training in the MA for some 27 years. My foundational system is an American eclectic form of Kung Fu. I began training in Aikido about 7 or 8 years ago. Because of work and family responsibilities I have never been able to go to class more than once a week and when I started I could only attend twice a month. I worked for the Calif. Dept of Corrections for about 10 years and when my shift changed I missed class for over two years. The advantage for me was that I had already trained in the MA for 20 years so it wasn’t that difficult for me to learn once I understood the underlying principals.

The way I educated myself was to buy as many books as I could on the art and some quality videos of Aikido demonstrations. Training at home on my own helped a lot. Training with a varied body types and personalities is a requirement for understanding most of Aikido’s principals. To fully grasp the principals you must think about what you are learning not just go to class. As a Law Enforcement Officer you will have plenty of opportunities to experiment with what you have learned in class. There are a number of Law Enforcement Officers that post in this forum and if you hang out awhile you will read some of their Aikido war stories as well as the war stories of other members.

You will find that most of the techniques require some adaptation to be functional in real life and to figure out how to adapt takes either a partner with some experience or experience of your own. I agree that if this is the way you want to go you should plan to be in for the long haul. Aikido has a lot to offer and a good instructor is a must. If you find a school that doesn’t seem to fit your needs it is most likely just that instructor's teaching style and not the art itself. I have been fortunate in that my instructor is a high-ranking student of Chiba Sensei. I started training with him shortly after he began teaching and his style was a bit rough around the edges, but his technique is superb so I stayed with him. His teaching style has improved greatly and remember, I had been teaching for around 20 years so I had a bit more instructing time under my belt than he.

One of the things I like about Aikido is that you don’t have to be a high caliber athlete to excel as in the kicking arts. It doesn’t require a high level of flexibility. Until recently my instructor taught in a gymnastics gym, we trained on the tumbling floor which was great for bigger people and those with older bones because of the shock absorbing nature of the surface. I have also trained in Aiki-jujutsu. We trained on a more traditional floor and your body takes much more of a beating. High falls will do that to you. In Aikido, especially in the beginning stages you will primarily be performing rolls instead of falls. Rolls are much gentler on the body.

One of the most beneficial concepts I have found in Aikido is the body movement, called Tai Sabaki. It is the most effective form of body movement I have come across.

As I have moved into middle age I have recommended Aikido to more and more people. The injuries you can expect are determined by the instructor’s teaching style and how much control he exerts on the students’ enthusiasm. At the school I attend we respect the physical limitations of the older and injured members and train harder against those who are capable of training hard and desire to do so. Over all I have sustained minor injuries in Aikido compared to the injuries I have suffered from Kung Fu and Aiki-jujutsu training.

People train in Aikido for many reasons, not all of which are for self-defense. We had one student who didn’t even know Aikido was a MA when she started. I highly recommend Aikido, my only regret is that I didn’t start training in it sooner.

Sincerely,

Scott
18th May 2001, 11:41
Emil,

E-mail privately if if you would like more information. I can help address your physical limitations and some of your other concerns.

Sincerely,

Tom Douglas
18th May 2001, 17:19
Emil:

Many law enforcement personnel have adapted Aikido training and techniques to their professional needs. For example, Tokyo police often send their officers for a 1-year intensive training at the Yoshinkan hombu dojo (so I've read; I may be incorrect on the details).

I would second Mark's suggestion above to elicit responses from some of the law enforcement types who post in this forum. One in particular would be George Ledyard in the Seattle area, who incorporates Aikido into his "Defensive Tactics" training (www.aikieast.com). Mr. Ledyard may even know of good Aikido instructors with law enforcement training experience in your area.

Best wishes in your training. You've taken some wise first steps in doing your own research and soliciting feedback on this board.

Tom Douglas

chrismoses
18th May 2001, 17:59
Just wanted to add a few more things.

Seiza- (the sitting on your knees waiting for your feet to turn blue position): Any dojo worth training at will understand if you cannot sit in this position. Sitting cross-legged is an acceptable alternative, or just kneeling. You instructor should offer an alternative that you can do. Don't be afraid to ask.

Also wanted to second the suggestion to contact George Ledyard from Aikido Eastside. His Defensive Tactics system was designed for law enforcement situations and he may have a contact in your area. I've trained with him a number of times and would respect his opinion on a teacher. He is also very approachable and I am sure wouldn't mind hearing from you out of the blue. Check the website for contact info.

Kit LeBlanc
18th May 2001, 20:12
Emil,

I am one of those LEO's the others are talking about. I work for a Southwest Washington agency and teach law enforcement ground control tactics as part of a larger close quarters program currently being developed for my agency's SWAT team. George Ledyard is a WA state certified Defensive Tactics instructor (search his name here on E-Budo for a link to his website, I think it is called Defensive Tactics Options) and he and I had a very interesting discussion in another Aikido thread that you should read, we cover a lot of topics and had some different takes on the subject. Ultimately we agreed more than disagreed. Look for the thread entitled Ground Defense. For further background reading go to http://www.arrestling.com for a view of an absolutely outstanding integrated DT program being taught by one of the best, King County WA Deputy Don Gulla.

I would caution you to be wary of non-LEOs or non-LEO DT certified instructors ideas and beliefs on what is a *good* martial art for your work. Many are not aware of Use of Force laws, liability issues, familiar with wearing body armor and our "Batbelts," and on and on. While truly trying to help you they may not know what are in your best interests as an LEO.


First off, as an LEO you DO have to be very discriminating in what art(s) you study. There is a lot out there that is excellent in terms of martial art, but damn poor for use in law enforcement.

You mention the spiritual aspect. This is a consideration which in my opinion should be separated from your interest in developing better tactical hand-to-hand options. Don't get me wrong, I think it is an important aspect in the overall development of a martial artist, PARTICULARLY ONE WHO ACTUALLY HAS TO USE FORCE ON OTHER PEOPLE, FOR REAL, as a regular part of your job. See my post in the Budo no Kokoro forum on the thread entitled "Where did it go?" for more opinions on this. Needless to say, how individual practitioners and teachers view "spiritual" in the context of martial disciplines is widely diverse.


Now, tactically, Aikido has some good points and is the basis for a good deal of control holds and come-alongs found in DT training programs. Based on my experience, these holds work best with semi-cooperative suspects. The guy that doesn't want to be moved along but doesn't really want to fight GETS moved along with judicious use of such force.
As you indicated you were interested in this sort of thing above, facility in such techniques will shut down many situations (perhaps the majority you will get involved in) before they get out of hand.

My concern is that with persons that actively fight to get away or actually aggress at you, persons often under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol and impervious to pain, such compliance holds, wrist controls/etc. leave a lot to be desired. Few Aikido dojos teach effective striking methods, which would come into play here, and personal experience has shown that a sweep, leg kicks, or head/arm/body control throw followed by effective ground control works much more efficiently in these situations. Again many Aikido schools do not teach close-in body to body contact grappling, and as you know, this is often where you end up. You need a method or an art which will develop facility in this area whilst at the same time being mindful of your weapons and weapon retention capabilities and your overall situational/environmental awareness.

Your ground control should contain some techniques for getting out from the bottom position, but be mostly predicated on getting and maintaining top control positions. In my own practice I work on this with a combination of modified Brazilian jujutsu and *some* elements of classical jujutsu that I have personally studied or been shown by other practitioners. Judo and wrestling, properly adapted, have much to offer here and have the added advantage of being full contact without the tendency for your partner to tank for you (just the opposite! And this is a very neglected aspect of DT training. Force on Force training is the wave of the future...). But remember in the field you absolutely DO NOT want to be rolling around on the ground with your guy as in a sport jujutsu or wrestling match.

I would be happy to discuss my own training and how I practice stuff for DT more with a brother officer. Get hold of me by private e-mail through E-Budo and I will write back.

Kit

Mike Collins
19th May 2001, 02:10
Hi Emil,

I don't know anything about police stuff, but I've had the opportunity to watch and train a bit with Bob Koga, and I very much think he and his stuff are the real deal.

As to Aikido at 33 and with bad knees, that I know a bit about. I started when I was 32, right after I quit smoking. I was eating like a pig and my weight "blossomed" from about 235 to about 285 in a few months (but I didn't smoke and nobody got killed). I'm about 6'2" tall. My knees have never been particularly good, but I found that after I got over the initial stiffness in the joints from a life of construction work and couch potato-hood, I got quite a bit less stiff and sore, and I found my general state of well being greatly improved.

Until my work got its' stranglehold on me, I was training between 3-5 times a week. At first though, for about 6 months, I only trained 2-3 times a week just to get past the real beginner feelings, and I rarely trained the whole 2 hours. We usually got kicked out for the last 1/2 hour of class so the upper levels could train without fear of killing one of us. Now, when I can I train twice a week (less lately with work commitment and knee pain- I'm getting it fixed) or so, and that's just about enough to tread water physically, and improve only marginally technically.

If work will let you, try to make 2 classes a week for a while, and there will likely be a time when you naturally want to do more. Then it's all about time.

There are very few long term "miracle cures", if you continue to train, the benefits will be directionally proportional to the level of energy expended to achieve that benefit.

Most important-----

This stuff is a kick in the butt. The point is to enjoy it and train with a really joyful energy. For a long time you'll want to let go of the "need" to be effective, cause you simply won't be. I happen to believe that the more committed you are at first, to effectiveness, the more elusive it becomes.

Relax, train for the pleasure in it, let the effectiveness just kind of naturally happen, and it will. That is different than not thinking about effectiveness, just don't be attached too firmly to it. It takes time. Chances are you already know how to be martially effective, you need to learn how to be effective with minimal effort, and thereby minimal damage.

Good Luck!

MarkF
19th May 2001, 09:36
There are very few long term "miracle cures", if you continue to train, the benefits will be directionally proportional to the level of energy expended to achieve that benefit.



Pardon me, Mike, I'm not sure if you were referring to me or not, but I was giving my professional opinion about a medicinal curative which has shown remarkable results. You're right about "miracle cures" but this potion, the glocosamine, chondroitin, and MSM has proven results. I was making a pharmaceutical recommendation.

It is similar to all the anti-inflammatory drugs (mainly NSAIDS) which begin to work over a period of time, but Glucosamine has actually reversed the course of cartilage damage, particularly that which has happened over a period of time because of overuse injury.

If you were not referring to my post: Never Mind:)

Mark

PS: Funny as in ironic, but I had George and Kit in my post, but didn't want to put the onus on them. I see I was wrong about that.

Mike Collins
19th May 2001, 17:39
No Mark,

I wasn't speaking about medicine or dietary additives at all. Only about benefits of practice. I've only heard good stuff about Glucosamine, but I'm not disciplined enough to carry them around and take them after meals.

Sorry if it felt like an attack. Not my intent at all.

George Ledyard
19th May 2001, 20:52
Given the limitations that you describe in terms of time commitment and physical limitations I would say that one time a week won't do you much good. Traditional Aikido is really complex. It takes years to get functional even if you train four or more times a week.

You would be better off finding a program that incorporates Aikido techniques but is designed for law enforcement and security people. My own program is pretty simple. We do basic boxing derived handwork with a bit of Muy Thai and Wing Chun derived stuff added in for the defensive part and a set of seven Aikido derived takedowns for the arrest and control portion. If someone stays around for more than six months or so we start to focus on how to bring those two sets of skills together so that you can use the takedowns to deescalate after delivering two or three effective impact techniques.

It is very simple by Aikido standards but is very complex compared to most Defensive Tactics systems. When I do department training they don't even get to see this stuff as they only do four or six hours per year. In my opinion (and this is shared by Robert Bragg, head of Instructor Training at our academy) it takes at least six months training twice per week to start getting competent at even a relatively simple system.

My Criminal Justice kids usually start looking fairly good at the end of the second quarter and the are training five hours a week.


So in answer to your question I don't think Aikido would do you much good at all. The less time you have to train the more targeted the program is that you should look for. By DT standards training once a week would be a whole lot so you need to find some one offering a very compact program that is designed to be taught to people making that type of commitment.

Emil
20th May 2001, 17:23
A huge "Thank You" to all who responded to my request. It seems that Aikido may not be for me. As Mr. Ledyard has stated, this will not help due to my personal restraints. If 10 years is required for true skill to be apparent (at 4 workouts per week), than this is not the answer I'm looking for. I think that a more intense regimen of defensive tactics along with continued physical conditioning could be the ticket.
However.... I've had the MA bug for several months now and it is not going away. Through my research it is quite clear that debating styles of MA is like arguing religion: all are the best depending on who you ask. I think that there is no system better than the other, only what is good for a certain person. This decision is based on body type, motivation, as well as time allowed for study and location (availibility of instruction).
I will continue to research the history and use of MA. It is quite interesting. It still is my intention to select one and begin- without making it my 'quick fix' answer to proficiency in work related fights. Like I said, I got the bug.
I want to thank everyone for passing on a bit of knowledge to me. You can read all the books and watch all the videos in the world, but what helped the most was hearing from those who have been there and are probably not much different from me. Thanks Again.

PRehse
20th May 2001, 20:05
Just a point that 10 years is not required to get a functional use out of Aikido. There are dojos and training regimes out there that produce effective Aikido far quicker than that. Yoshinkan and Shodokan come to mind - not to mention Aikikai dojos with a functional bent.

The breadth takes time and that is one of the attractions - training for years makes a difference and there is always something new.

Personally, I find statements like "it takes a lifetime to master Ikkyo" tiresome. Master all the nuances is one thing, doing an effective ikkyo is another.



Originally posted by Emil
If 10 years is required for true skill to be apparent (at 4 workouts per week), than this is not the answer I'm looking for. I think that a more intense regimen of defensive tactics along with continued physical conditioning could be the ticket.

M Clarke
21st May 2001, 03:51
I have to second Mark's endorsment of Chondroitine/Glaucosimine. In my post the reference to joint foods/arthritis cures was specifically to these two products. I have been taking them as a single powdered supplement in food for two years and have found the results very satisfactory.
Regards

MarkF
21st May 2001, 08:19
Mike,
I didn't take it as an attack, I just wanted to be clear that it was a professional opinion as opposed to personal experience, although since I started taking the cocktail years ago, I haven't experienced any knee problems.

But oh yes, I've got similar problems in other areas, but are mostly confined to muscle and tendon strain, not to mention an arthritic back. As you said, there are no miracle cures and patient compliance is a major reason some don't work. Simple, but you would be amazed at the millions spent just to learn that people are people and don't like regimens they control themselves. You're not alone, IOW.
*****

Emil,
Everyone goes overboard about their particular MA so don't give up on aikido if that is what you want to do. You could try judo first to see how your body reacts, but make sure there is a teacher who can teach you what you need for your job.

Once a week has never been a problem with judo, at least with the teachers, but certain goals must be ajusted as to results, that's all. Judo can be adapted for anyone's situation as it isn't so specific. And there is a benefit of having a judo background when you seek out other MA, IE, aikido.

Mark

Karl Kuhn
21st May 2001, 22:15
Emil,

While I think it is a fine idea to investigate an art before getting commited to it, I think the best way to do this is to visit dojos. Take an intro class at a place that feels right. In the course of learning some of the fundamental movements talk to fellow students and instructors about what you are looking for.

Some dojos (mine included) feel that once a week for the first six weeks or so is optimal. This gives you an opportunity to get a handle on the work and let it sink in. I also do not believe that a functional understanding of the core work need take years and years.

Come on in, the waters fine.

Karl

George Ledyard
23rd May 2001, 05:34
When I made my first post on this thread I did so based on the parameters as outlined by "Emil". This gentlemen is a police officer. He needs technique that he can do. He can not afford to have techniques fail him on the street. If he were looking for a "hobby" I might say that once a week would be worth trying, just to test the waters so to speak. But from the standpoint of a professional needing training, once a week in Aikido is a joke. I have never seen a student who trained only once a week who could do his techniques effectively in a dojo setting much less on the street.

Here is my take on what a law enforcement or security professional requires:
Low level force technique requires emotional restraint and a confident attitude. The main reason that officers have excessive force problems is that they are actually out there on the street with the knowledge that they really can't handle themselves if things get out of hand. So whenever a subject gets a bit too feisty the officer fears that he will lose control and escalates the level of force. Given this situation it is our belief that the first element needed by an officer is solid Level II Empty Hand Impact Training (And good stick training too). Once the officer has the confidence that if any situation starts to escalate to an "aggressive" or "aggravated aggressive" level he can go to the center and knock an aggressor out he will not be motivated by fear in his encounters on the street.

The best way to acquire this level of defensive skill is by doing real force on force training. This type of training is available in a number of places:

Peyton Quinn:
http://www.narf.com/~rmcat/page1.html

Calibre Press Street Survival: http://www.calibrepress.com/default3.html

Blauer Tactical Systems:
http://www.tonyblauer.com/Tactical/LawEnforcement.html

Insights Training:
http://www.insightstraining.com/

All of these folks are prepared to give a very tight training experience that will produce positive results in a weekend or a couple of weekends. Short of long term martial arts training this is the best way to get functional fast.

Once an officer has developed the confidence that he has fundamental survival skills he can then proceed to move to low level force training with the proper mindset. At this point his Verbal De-escalation training becomes something more than wishful thinking.

Now Level I Defensive Tactics are more problematical. In my opinion the hardest single thing to do is bring a resistant subject under control without injuring him. I don't think that there is an adequate short run solution for acquiring these skills. When I have to do in-service training for departments, which means they are going to get four to six hours of hands on, I will limit the number of techniques to: 3 Takedowns, 1 Escort, and a basic system for controlling a subject on the ground. This is really minimal but even then I am fairly sure that they won't practice the techniques after the training is over and will not be able to do them when the situaion requires. The exception to this is when I get a chance to work with the few officers around here that actually patrol some of the rougher neighorhoods. They actually get functional because they use the techniques every couple of days at least.

Now as an Aikido teacher I can say that all of the things a police officer needs to know how to do on a daily basis are contained in the Aikido repertiore. The problem is that there is a lot of Aikido that does not directly apply. Unless an officer can train consistently and frequently he is unlikely to develop either the technical ability to execute techniques on a really resistent subject nor the strength of intention that is required to do so in a real street situation. As Kit pointed out most Aikido dojos don't teach the effective atemi etc. that real application requires. But even at a school like ours, which tries to do so, it takes a significant time commitment to get functional. This can not be done training only once a week. That is not enough to really imprint the technique to the point where it is spontaneous. And a person who is only training once a week simply can not train hard enough physically (he'd only get injured in practice) to develop the kind of strength of intention that is required.

So the only viable solution for the person who can not make a steady training commitment is the single or multi day seminar type training solution. Some of the places mentioned above cover low level force technique. You can always set up your own training by getting a group together and running your own seminar. There are quite a few people around the country that will tailor a seminar to your specific requirements. Most of the larger training institutes have defensive tacics units that you can take. The ASLET Conference every year has quite an offering of the latest and greatest DT training as well. But anything that isn't followed up with regular practice is just "feel good" training in my opinion.

kusanku
23rd May 2001, 06:19
E,il- Just saw your question, and wanted to suggest something, first let me say all the options and the opinion of George Ledyard is absolutely correct imo.

In addition to the suggestions he gives above all which I agree with,I might add Krav Maga, the Israeli martial art, or you might look at Chin Na, the Chinese police Control category of techniques, which contains nothing but effectve stuff plus one shot incapacitating strikes.

The system taught by Yang, Jwing-Ming is very comprehensive and practical, and maybe would do you some good one time a week.

The good thing about Chin Na is force continuum is built in to the art.Rather than being a style of classical art, it is a collection of principles and techniques from those arts, which does not necessarily require the learning of a whole art to be effective, similar to a really practical jiujitsu system as developed for introduction to the West.

Certain Chin na techniques are so simple as to be learned fairly quickly and be able to be used within a very short time, and they would blend qwell with PPC tactics and so forth.

Idea in chin na is a series of escalating control holds and locks and takedowns, that can be combined with striking and escalated as needed in force continuu, and plus can be maintained , some of them, one handed so you can access what you need with the other.

Knees involve moving in mostly standing stances and footwork that will loosen the hips but not destroy your knees.

Done in street clothes or can be done in uniform, chin na is a practical adjunct to all types of police work and securty officers as well.It involves grip training, footwork and basic stance and stepping( for making the locks and holds more effective),strength training, fingerlocks, wrsitlocks, elbow locks, shoulderlocks, neck locks, and waist and spne ocks, leglocks, and ankle and knee locks, takedowns and felling techniques,muscle and nerve grabbing techniques , connecting and intercepting training for actual usage, and the sub art of dian xue or point striking.

Its advanced techniques take many years to perfect, but its basic and intermediate ones can be acquired much sooner than that, some literally overnight.Locking a ersons litle finger for instance requires positioning and knowledge of what to do, and that is about it on that.

The wristlocks include all the basic aiki type locks plus many mmore, with
unbalancing and cudden distraction taking the place of blending harmonoiously, but enable a lock to be put on by most people who train a little on them.

As for Krav Maga, that is for when the rubber meets the road and its life or death. Chin Na is human and mercufu because you are not killing anyone , you are not breaking anything nless they really fight to get out, then it can happen, and of course the point strikes can go from stu to as far as needed, but with krav maga, this is melee combat, close in and personal, they are trying to get your weapon and there are more than one of them, mabe armed, and its life or death.

Krav Maga is simple, brutal and effective.But it works, even unarmed against a knie.Normally you wouldn't need this, and you would draw the weapon here- but things don't always go normally. As one state trooper told me, the PPC worked just like it should when he hit a guy close in who had a gun coming up, with a brachial stun.He had the officer's gun.But not for long.

So, chin na and krav maga, two possibillities for two tpes of circumstance.The first designed for Chinese police work and close quarters battle, the second for the Israeli military forces.One has obviously a broader usage than the other and less potential for suit or civil action.

Both are effective, both can be fairly quickly learned and applied at least at the basic level which is very effective.

Now, I'm not an LEO, but I have thirty six years MA experience, and have trained with LEO's who tell me what has worked and not, and why.

The above things George Ledyard mentions are good, particularly Tony Blauer's S.P.E.A.R. System, designed for LEO's specifically.

But if you want actual martial arts stuff, chin na and krav maga would be hard to beat, in anyone's book.

Generally speaking, the simpler the stuff is to learn and do, the better it is for use.Cin na contains the body evasion and stepping moves that aikio and karate do, without all the extra stuff that might not do you any good and might also get you killed.Chin na is about effect, period.You hit, you lock, they go down, you cuff 'em, take em where they go, paperwork, and go home.

Krav Maga, you go home, they go to the hospital.

They shouldn't attack people like that.

Two cent's worth for your consideration.

A few techniques well mastered are the best way to go.

Scott
23rd May 2001, 06:27
Mr. Ledyard,

As a veteran Correctional Officer of ten years I agree with almost all you have written. Taking down resistive inmates is a very difficult business. We have the benefit of reinforcements usually within seconds of arriving. I understand Street Officers don't have that luxury.

My question is: How can 1-3 weekends of a Defensive Tactics course without any follow up practice provide a better basis for defense than one night a week for a number of years?

I understand and agree with your statement about Aikido having all the needed elements, but requiring modification. I agree with your statement that it is better to train more frequently than less frequently. However, I think that once a week for years training is more beneficial than a few weekends once in your life without follow up training. Certainly neither is the best case senario, but at the very least at a dojo a student could find another student to practice with on occasion for more practical training.

Sincerely,

MarkF
23rd May 2001, 10:29
I don't think it was meant that a "Defensive Tactics" course would be better than years of training once a week, but that it is simply easier to adapt to techniques specifcally meant for a LE job, rather than attempting to learn aikido in x-many years with only once a week training.

I would also think that follow up practice IS part of a DT course, just as in the military these types of courses are taught, and are effective in a relatively short amount of time.




So for the poster's (Emil) needs, a DT course of x-time and x-follow up (would probably be voluntary, but most here do so with pleasure) sounds like exactly what he needs, bad knees or no bad knees.:)

Mark

George Ledyard
23rd May 2001, 12:08
Originally posted by Scott
Mr. Ledyard,

My question is: How can 1-3 weekends of a Defensive Tactics course without any follow up practice provide a better basis for defense than one night a week for a number of years?

I understand and agree with your statement about Aikido having all the needed elements, but requiring modification. I agree with your statement that it is better to train more frequently than less frequently. However, I think that once a week for years training is more beneficial than a few weekends once in your life without follow up training. Certainly neither is the best case scenario, but at the very least at a dojo a student could find another student to practice with on occasion for more practical training.

Sincerely,
I will use my own case as an example as I am an Aikido teacher and a teacher of Defensive Tactics. Let's say that I have a student who is a police officer training once a week at my dojo. Let's also assume that he trains in both classes so he is getting two hours of instruction. In one year he will receive just over one hundred hours of instruction. The vast majority of that instruction will be on ukemi, footwork, Aikido Kihon Waza, some sword, some jo, etc. Technical instruction will be done in the traditional uke / nage manner with a lot of emphasis on the various grabbing style attacks and the three basic strikes (Shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, and munetsuki).

At no point will he execute any "applied" versions of the techniques he is learning (since at one time per week it would take him years to get to our advanced class) He will not have any experience applying his techniques against non-traditional type attacks like western boxing or karate style attacks using kicks etc. as that is also reserved for the advanced class (requires solid ukemi skills which he won't have at once a week). Most of the techniques he does study will be inappropriate for use on the street as low level force arrest and control techniques as, in the form they are taught in the dojo, they require a trained uke to be non-injurious. Finally, since traditional Aikido training is based on the model that we receive an attack and then execute a response he will get no experience in attempting to utilize any techniques against a subject that is eggressive rather than aggressive.

So, in my estimation, it would be optimistic to say that of the hundred hours of training he would receive in his one year at my school, perhaps 20% or 20 hours would be directly applicable to the requirements of his job as a law enforcement officer.


Now say that you attended to weekend seminars from some of the folks that I mentioned or even from myself in my capacity as a DT Instructor. Let's say that you'd get sixteen hours of instruction during the course of the seminar.

100% of the course material is targeted to the requirements of the job. The techniques taught are designed to be effective on the street. The low level force techniques are specifically chosen because they can be done against resistant subjects with a low risk of serious injury. The high level force techniques are taught to be executed against the types of attack that you would typically encounter on the street.

So two of these seminars in a year would give you 60% more hours of training that would directly apply to the job. Then there is the issue of the effectiveness of the training itself.

In terms of learning and retention it is far better to have a block of instruction that is intense, teaches techniques that are related, and does so in a context that is as close to the conditions under which the techniques will really be used as possible than it is to have a situation in which the student has to extract the relevant techniques from a larger body of inapplicable material over an extended time period under conditions that do not in the least resemble the conditions under which they will be applied.

Now if we can up the hours to even twice a week, four instead of two, it just might start to be worth it to take a martial arts class like Aikido. But frankly the material is still very untargeted for the needs of the LEO. I'd still probably go with the seminar approach and see if I could do another weekend. As for the cost of acquiring the training... The national average for martial arts instruction is $100 per month for dues. That's $1200 / year. If you live anywhere where there is instruction of the type I mentioned before and you can attend training without much in the way of out of town travel, then $1200 can go quite a long way. In terms of the actual cost per usable technique the seminar route will be cheaper.

Kit LeBlanc
23rd May 2001, 15:48
Why does it seem that DT instructors trained in Oregon state seem to refer to them as "DT's," and the WA instructors call it "DT?"

Just curious.. .


George does not seem to be saying that three weekends of DT training, even intensive, will make an officer effective on the street . We all know it will not. Nor will three years depending on the officer, a LOT has to do with the mental and physical makeup of the officer regardless of how much training he/she has had.

I think what he is saying is that considering a limited commitment to training (for after all that is what we are talking about. The reasons are immaterial, the commitment level is clearly limited) it is far better to practice a set of skills much more immediately practical for the job than to spend that same limited time in practicing the basic elements of a martial art which have no relation or a very tangential relation to the applications required for the job.

I agree 100%

His post on Aikido vs. DT is an excellent description of traditional martial art instruction vs. task specific combatives instruction.

I think of it this way. Take a cop who doesn't know how to fight (and oh they do exist...). Teach him DT, get him into regular JOB RELATED Force on Force training so that he learns how to deal with chemical stress, learns how to properly challenge suspects in his big boy voice, and learns how to make use of force decisions. Give him a small set of BASIC techniques that will work for a variety of body types, then drill the Force on Force stuff again until you see a DEMONSTRATED confidence and basic level proficiency with the technique in a resistive situation. THEN see if he may be interested in an appropriate martial arts tradition to refine what he knows and develop greater tactical awareness and level of confidence when things don't go the way they should be and backup is three to five minutes (or thirty to forty minutes) away.

Take a cop who DOES know how to fight, or is a seasoned martial artist, and refine what he knows by adapting the stuff that has proven to work for him time and again and trying to make it safer and more tactical by minor tweaking here and there and regular drilling on weapons awareness. An officer with this level of training should be doing a lot of this himself, and there will be an adjustment time when he learns that the things his sensei swore by don't really work and the boring stuff he learned as a white belt is the stuff that really does.

Last, I would NOT recommend chin na to police officers simply because it is NOT a system of martial arts. Chin na is joint locking, sweeps, throws, etc. but it is subsumed within existing Chinese martial arts traditions. Therefore, in order to learn chin na you can't go to a "chin na school," you have to start a Chinese martial arts system (a la Eagle Claw, Shuai Jiao, Mantis, Xing Yi etc.) and then learn the chin na that particular system does. This is by far the LONG road to street effectiveness, as most Chinese schools spend a lot of time (weeks to months) developing a foundation of stancework, internal and external power development, and forms before any combative technique is taught.

Not sure on Krav Maga, haven't seen enough. I have heard good things, but remember that cops can't only train in head butt, kick his groin, gouge his eyes and punch him in the throat. This is useful only if the officer's sidearm cannot be reach safely in the face of a sudden potentially lethal onslaught or for weapon retention type stuff. I think there is a pressing need for cops to train for this type of situation, as statistically some 25% of officers slain with a firearm are killed with their own weapons (if I have my stats right), but the bulk of an officer's training should be in controlling and containing (locks, throws and holds with judicious use of atemi) with weapons awareness and not commando style or self defense type moves. Different realms entirely.


KIt

Scott
23rd May 2001, 18:37
Gentlemen,

Very reasonable explanations. Thank You!

Let me say this. For those of you who don't know me (I have mentioned this info in other posts.) I have trained in the MA for some 27 years. My first art is an American eclectic Kung-fu hybrid. I started training in Aikido about 8 years ago. (I may have said 6 years in eariler posts) I have never been able to train more than once or twice a month and easily moved to near the top of the class, in technique execution, within the first couple of years. (As a quailfication, we have a very small school with less than ten students.) I have been given the compliment by my instructor that he believes I would make an excellent instructor. This would be my wish if I could ever find the time to attend classes regularly. Because promotions in my school are related to time spent in class rather than actual skill acquired I hold no rank of significance. Once I understood the underlying principals of Aikido I found the execution of techniques simple to learn. I am not claiming any special ability. It is clear that my years of MA experience and my own interest have allowed me to excel where others might have more difficulty.

This is just background on myself to give some idea of my knowledge base.

My real point is this: After I had trained in Aikido for a year or so I convinced one of my Correctional friends to attend class. At our school, up until recently, we train in open-hand techniques only once a week and weapons twice a week. In about 6 years of training my friend has accomplished a clear understanding of the techniques and an ability to execute them in the correctional enviroment. All this, training in the specific techniques only "once" per week. At best the weapons classes would have provided him with the added benefit of Tai Sabaki training not open-hand techniques that would be of practical benefit. While the correctional enviroment does generally provide timely backup assistance, my friend works with the criminally insane and emotionally disturbed which creates a greater challenge in a physical altercation. He has been able to effectively apply his knowledge to his work enviroment.

While I agree with the opinions of Mr. Ledyard and Mr. LeBlank in principal and would generally agree with their recommendations practical experience presents me with an example that is dicotomous with theirs. One could make the arguement that my friend's case is unique, however he is overweight by about 30-40 pounds and has no special athletic history that would give him an edge. His interest in the art and desire to learn are his only "special" assests. His technique is smooth and crisp and he has been allowed to instruct the class on occasions when our instructor could not attend.

As a last comment, so you won't think that we train at some second rate school, our instructor is a 6th degree under Chiba Sensei.

Sincerely,

George Ledyard
23rd May 2001, 19:25
Originally posted by Scott
Gentlemen,

Very reasonable explanations. Thank You!

Let me say this. For those of you who don't know me (I have mentioned this info in other posts.) I have trained in the MA for some 27 years. My first art is an American eclectic Kung-fu hybrid. I started training in Aikido about 8 years ago. (I may have said 6 years in eariler posts) I have never been able to train more than once or twice a month and easily moved to near the top of the class, in technique execution, within the first couple of years. (As a quailfication, we have a very small school with less than ten students.) I have been given the compliment by my instructor that he believes I would make an excellent instructor. This would be my wish if I could ever find the time to attend classes regularly. Because promotions in my school are related to time spent in class rather than actual skill acquired I hold no rank of significance. Once I understood the underlying principals of Aikido I found the execution of techniques simple to learn. I am not claiming any special ability. It is clear that my years of MA experience and my own interest have allowed me to excel where others might have more difficulty.

This is just background on myself to give some idea of my knowledge base.

My real point is this: After I had trained in Aikido for a year or so I convinced one of my Correctional friends to attend class. At our school, up until recently, we train in open-hand techniques only once a week and weapons twice a week. In about 6 years of training my friend has accomplished a clear understanding of the techniques and an ability to execute them in the correctional enviroment. All this, training in the specific techniques only "once" per week. At best the weapons classes would have provided him with the added benefit of Tai Sabaki training not open-hand techniques that would be of practical benefit. While the correctional enviroment does generally provide timely backup assistance, my friend works with the criminally insane and emotionally disturbed which creates a greater challenge in a physical altercation. He has been able to effectively apply his knowledge to his work enviroment.

While I agree with the opinions of Mr. Ledyard and Mr. LeBlank in principal and would generally agree with their recommendations practical experience presents me with an example that is dicotomous with theirs. One could make the arguement that my friend's case is unique, however he is overweight by about 30-40 pounds and has no special athletic history that would give him an edge. His interest in the art and desire to learn are his only "special" assests. His technique is smooth and crisp and he has been allowed to instruct the class on occasions when our instructor could not attend.

As a last comment, so you won't think that we train at some second rate school, our instructor is a 6th degree under Chiba Sensei.

Sincerely,

Well there is always someone who has an experience different than ones own. I would say that you clearly have the benefit of being an exceptional student. I can only say that in my own experience I have not met anyone who is that quick a learner and I have had a fair exposure to different teachers.

I will say that in my experience of DT training it has been the Corrections folks who were consistently the best at restraint techniques. This was due to regular occasions on the job when they used the techniques they studied and the fact that they didn't carry weaponry which gave them a false sense of security. Those guys absoultely have to be able to do their stuff.

I will still stand by my answer based on my own observation of the skills of the average student I encounter in both Aikido and Defensive Tactics. I am not saying to people not to train. And I am not saying that one time per week isn't better than no times per week. I am giving my best advice on what is reasonable to expect for the average student and what I think would represent the optimal use of training time and effort to acheive the skills required for a law enforcement or security professional.

Frankly I don't think this is being overly restrictive. I can't think of any activity one might study in which the teacher of that activity will tell you that competence will be reached by practicing once a week. I remember my early less than enthusiastic music lessons in which the instructor would note that it was clear to him that the only time I picked up the instrument was for the once a week lesson. I can also imagine the reaction to my informing one of the coaches of my kids athletic teams that they would only be practicing once a week.

So if you have been able to achieve a high level of competency training just once a week I commend you and shudder to think how good you would be if you had put more time in. You would certainly surpass the rest of us with that kind of talent at your disposal.

Emil
23rd May 2001, 19:34
Mr. Ledyard's perceptions are on the money.
The lack of confidence is exactly what leads to the exsessive use of force. I have been accused of just that on many previous occasions. If you have little confidence in your abilities your tendency is to up the force quickly. This is good in some circumstances, bad in others.
This is what has led me to this point of making the decision to improve my skills. In this day and age an officer can be complained on and sued for so much as a hard look. My most recent lawsuit was based on discriminating against hispanic women. My wife of 14 yrs (Maria de la Luz Morales Bravo) found this to be quite amusing. Its gotten out of hand.
My days of seeking the toughest guy on the block and taking him down just to establish who's in charge are long over. I now choose to avoid confrontation. It causes injury, tears my uniforms up, and results in frivolous complaints that are too much of a headache to deal with. I have read that MA study increases ones confidence and awareness as much as ones fighting skill. That is a big part of it.
I am still researching and checking out MA studios in my area. I have access to 2 Aikido dojos, seveval general Kung Fu/Karate type places, numerous Taekwondo dojos, as well as a place specializing in boxing/kickboxing training.
One specific area of study I found to be interesting is Shodokan Karate. The structure and thoughts behind it seem to be similar to Aikido (I'm sure they differ greatly in physical structures).
Great, great stuff..... Very interesting to learn about and I'm confident it will be a life-changing move on my part when I begin.

PRehse
23rd May 2001, 20:04
Originally posted by Emil
One specific area of study I found to be interesting is Shodokan Karate. The structure and thoughts behind it seem to be similar to Aikido (I'm sure they differ greatly in physical structures).
Great, great stuff..... Very interesting to learn about and I'm confident it will be a life-changing move on my part when I begin.

Interesting observation. One of my teachers in Japan has high level rank in both Shodokan Aikido and Shotokan Karate. I asked him which one was better and his answer was that after san dan they begin to converge. My impression, based on a bit of cross training and talking with people like the aforementioned sensei, is that Shotokan is a very good system for martial study.

I am not a police officer, nor do I want to play one on TV, but the controlled atmosphere of the dojo allows you to refine both the physical and mental aspects of confrontation that you would not (hey I watch NYPD Blue) get in the course of your job. Its that mental control which a good dojo will teach.

Hey Karl (I saw your post) - in 10 days I'm in Osaka for three months. I'll be working about 20 minutes by train outside the city but if I get an apartment near Honbu dojo I should be able to train morning and night.

kusanku
24th May 2001, 00:12
Chin Na, is now a system, taught by Yang, Jwong-Ming, worldwide.

One can do just chin na if one wishes, I regularly train with a friend who studies directly with Dr Yang.

For a concise descriptionm of the system, see'Analuysis of Shaolin Chin Na_ An Instructor's manual, and for appied usage, see Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na, YMAA Publications.

I wouldn'rt recommend anything that doesn't work and can't be assimilated relatively quickly.

Chin na has also been separately taught as a police art in China, Taiwan and in India.

The techniques, known in Chinese sometimes as Capture skills,were designed with police usage in mind.

It is quite true that in order to become fully expert in chin na at the highest level, one must master sa system of chinese boxing. It is as true that one does not need to master them at the highest level in order to utilize them in actual situations.

I do not speak of this as one who does not practice what he preaches.Chin na is effective, and yes, under Yang, Jwing Ming,it is a system or art, and under several before him ,such as Master Han, Ch'ing-Tang, it was taught as a skill or set of skills, for police usage.

When you get caught with a chin na,if you don't know how to escape or counter, its just too bad.

And most people don't.This is why I Do recommend chin na. The way Yang Jwing-Ming has it set up, you can use it as adjucnt to any art or training, or do it separately, and his system is practiced around the world.

While I am not a student of his, friends of mine are, and they have shown me what they learn, and it is effective.As a judoka from of old:-), I am not so easy to lock or takedown, and as a karateka from old and still going,I pronounce the system, quite effective.

Judo would take too long and maybe be beyond Emil's capacity at this time, Aikido, as George Ledyard says, way way too long, and karate,even such a good system as Shorin ryu Matsubayashi ryu for instance,would take too long and result in more damage than he would normally be required by law to use unarmed.

For good reslts unarmed melee, krav maga s quick and dirty.For humane restraint, chin na is fast and smooth.

Nothing is taught in it but what you need.All the other stuff is left in the kungfu systems it is taken from.
I advise anyone disparaging the use of this for police work to check out the system as presented above before saying things showing they didn't know what was being discussed.:-)

I also recommended this because Emil said he wanted some traditional arts useful for police work. Since most really are not modern olice specific, I mentioned te only two besides the one George mentioned, which are modern training, that are so specific.

So Emil, you might want to check all those out.Many LEO, by the way, swear by Blauer's stuff, especially the S.P.E.A.R. System, that works off the startle response.

In Okinawan karate we have this training as well, and I have even devised a system where it is taught specifically, but you aren't where I am so, best go with one of the proven winners.

Main thing is for you to be safe, and the public as well.

Take care,
John

kusanku
24th May 2001, 00:21
Emil- Shotokan karate, with which I have some small experience, focusses on one punch kill, ikken hissatsu.

This might not be what you are looking for, also the deep stances may hurt your knees.

If karate you want, then maybe an Okinawan style. Not TaeKwon Do, again the knees, and the high kicks as well, are impractical for defense.

Unlesss you really are good at them, that is.

Most karate in the US isn't taught correctly however.Shotokan often is but is a sportified contest style based on taking out the opponent with one strong punch or kick, the kind that will get you sued.

If you could find a dojo of the Ryukyu Kempo style of Taika Oyata, they teach tuite, sort of related to chin na, as part of the art, very effective and more humane than killing the opponent.
Many shorin ryu dojo teach some control techniques first, but do also focus on striking and with precision to vital areas.However, maybe this is what you want.

Look around, see what you can find.

Scott
24th May 2001, 01:20
Mr. Ledyard,

I may have mis-represented myself. While I was only able to attend class once or twice per month I studied Aikido through books and vidoes and trained intensely on my own. I do believe my years of previous training has been a definite asset as well. I am constantly distressed with my inability to focus more on Aikido training. I enjoy it very much and I would like to teach it someday.

As to my friend, he does not participate in much independent training. The fact that he has a greater opportunity to practice what he has learned in his work enviroment is a good point.


I thank you for your responses to my questions.

Sincerely,

Kit LeBlanc
24th May 2001, 07:37
Originally posted by kusanku
Chin Na, is now a system, taught by Yang, Jwong-Ming, worldwide.

One can do just chin na if one wishes, I regularly train with a friend who studies directly with Dr Yang.

Nothing is taught in it but what you need.All the other stuff is left in the kungfu systems it is taken from.
I advise anyone disparaging the use of this for police work to check out the system as presented above before saying things showing they didn't know what was being discussed.:-)

I also recommended this because Emil said he wanted some traditional arts useful for police work. Since most really are not modern olice specific, I mentioned te only two besides the one George mentioned, which are modern training, that are so specific.

Take care,
John

John,

Take your own advice. Read my post again, I do not disparage chin na for police work, and have used elements of it on the job myself.

Considering that I have eight years in Chinese arts, three months training on mainland China, and that I speak and read Chinese (yes, I have read Yang's Chin na book, in fact I also used to have a copy of the Chinese version of the book Tim Cartmell translated on Chin na by an instructor who taught Mainland Chinese police), I think I do know what I am talking about, and I am willing to bet I know quite a bit more about chin na, Chinese martial arts, and how they may or may not apply to police work than you probably realize.

Again, chin na *traditionally* is not a separate art. That would be analogous to saying that my martial art is "joint locking." Chin na is a subset of skills that are contained in all Chinese martial arts.

So I re-iterate, unless Emil happens to be in an area where he can find a school affiliated with Yang Junming, a teacher who is an ex-Taiwan police instructor, or perhaps training with Robert Smith (who trained with Han Qingtan and has published several descriptions of his chin na techniques in Journal of Asian Martial Arts), he should skip trying to locate a school that teaches "only chin na," finding one will be impractical at best, and training in a full blown Chinese system will take too long to develop functional combative/restraining ability.

If he finds a good chin na teacher, then by all means he should go for it, chin na contains a lot of great jujutsu-like stuff that does not seem to have to be modified for police work the way a lot of modern jujutsu, Aikido, and Judo needs to be.

Kit

Post edited due to the nature of my original response. Sorry but I had just got back from a day of SWAT training and I was tired and cranky. I do not wish to further detract from an otherwise excellent discussion in which I may, in fact, be fully aware of what is being discussed.