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View Full Version : Book: "The Hidden Roots of Aikido", by Shiro Omiya



Nathan Scott
17th May 2001, 23:08
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This book has received much comment and criticism since it's publication in 1999 by Kodansha.

Comments have ranged from "great stuff" to "unconvincing". Criticism seems to be based primarily on the lack of credentials and background of the author, and secondarily on the performance/technique quality displayed.

The following link is to a discussion that took place in the Aikido Journal (http://www.aikidojournal.com) bulletin board, and includes interesting commentary by Mr. Stanley Pranin and others:

-Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu question (http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000051.html)

Regards.

kusanku
18th May 2001, 09:05
'Tis a interesting book, alright, but for technical aiki type detail and correct technique its hard to beat Total Aikido by the Shiodas, which show about everything anyone ever wanted to know about how to make Aiki Do( as distinct from jutsu) work.

Us karate types were so impressed with the Yoshinkan that we invied Dr. Howie's Shuwakan dojo instructors down to give us a seminar.

We were suitably impressed and in pain at the end.:-)

Dr. Howie, a godan in Yoshinkan, said at one point that in Japan, he had gotten to study some Daito Ryu, and that it was completely different than Aikido.

Said that while Yoshinkan Aikido is definitely meant to be effective in self defense, Daito Ryu's purpose appeared to be to kill the opponent so quick he wouldn't even realize that he was dead.

The Aikibudo people I met had a similar idea.Whatever their origin.

The Shuwakan was named by Shioda Gozo and was affiliated with the Yoshinkan Hombu, as listed in Shioda's book, which is how we contacted them.

At least we got to taste the technique of one legitimate Aiki lineage, and man, that sankyo hurt!:-)

Nathan Scott
13th November 2002, 01:29
In case the links in the opening post die, here is some more info on the teacher of Shiro Omiya:

On the inside back cover on of the book dust jacket it states, "Shiro Omiya studied Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu with Kozui Tsuruyama [now deceased], a second-generation disciple of Sokaku Takeda, the master who first introduced the Daitoryu to the world."

Tsuruyama's original organization was Nihonden Aikijujutsu, which has not splinted off into a number of other groups. Stan Pranin states that he asked Takeda Tokimune Sensei about Tsuruyama's experience, and that Tokimune S. said that he believed he had very little. This is inline with what Okamoto Sensei said in CWDRM in reference to Tsuruyama's claim to being a student of Horikawa Kodo S. Tsuruyama apparently used to claim to have received a DR Menkyo Kaiden from Horikawa Sensei, and then later claimed it was a Nihonden Aikijujutsu Menkyo Kaiden.

This book was also apparently published in Japanese originally under the name "Shinden Aiki Koketsu Ohi" (no kanji to go from, but I guess it translates something like "An Introduction to Authentic/True Deadly Aiki").

Anyway, the book is an interesting mix of a variety of techniques, but I remain somewhat suspicious of the author. Despite the title, he appears to have little knowledge of the deeper aspects of "aiki".

By the way, Mr. Omiya also pops up in several Japanese language books on Aiki this-and-that by other authors of the same ilk, one in particular looks to be under 30 years old.

It might be worth taking the technical portion of the book with a grain of salt until more information is made available on this author and his credentials to write such a book.

Perhaps someone at Kodansha (the book's publisher) could offer assistance?

Eric Joyce
13th November 2002, 17:09
I am glad someone has brought this up. I have this book and do find it somewhat useful. However, I could never find information on the author and his teacher which seemed a little suspicious. Thnaks for the investigative work.

Chris Li
16th November 2002, 05:31
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
In case the links in the opening post die, here is some more info on the teacher of Shiro Omiya:

On the inside back cover on of the book dust jacket it states, "Shiro Omiya studied Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu with Kozui Tsuruyama [now deceased], a second-generation disciple of Sokaku Takeda, the master who first introduced the Daitoryu to the world."


Tsuruyama is mentioned in Stan Pranin's interview with Kenkichi Ohgami (http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=1145). The article is negative, but it does confirm, at least, that Tsuruyama was teaching classes under Takuma Hisa. He's also mentioned, in passing, by Sagawa in "Tomei na Chikara".

In the interview it claims that Tsuruyama falsely claimed a menkyo kaiden in his book ("Aikido", I assume), although I don't remember seeing that in there - it may be, I suppose, but it didn't ring a bell off hand. On a quick flip through I notice that he didn't include many specifics about himself - he didn't even include himself on the lineage chart. I've heard arguments for both sides -there's a biography here (http://www.shintaido.com/taronaga/turunenp.htm) that gives him menkyo kaiden from Takuma Hisa in Showa 52 (1977), but I can't vouch for its accuracy.

I know some folks that studied with Tsuryama who are quite good, so he must have had something. The Daito-ryu they do appears, to me, to be right out of the Takumakai playbook.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
17th November 2002, 08:00
Thanks for the info Chris.

Louis Butto
2nd December 2002, 14:37
Dear Gentle People

I would like to respond to Chris Li's comments about Kenkichi Ohgami's article on the AikidoJournal online site, since I'm part responsible for its content. The comments about Tsuruyama, who was Ohmiya's teacher were infact negative. In a book published by Tsuruyama, he claimed to have been awarded menkyo kaidan from Hisa sensei. I saw the postcard from Hisa sensei denouncing that claim, which was written to Mr. Ohgami. Hisa sensei also had other trouble with Tsuruyama who was conducting a Daito Ryu class on his behalf in Tokyo. Hisa was quite aged by then, and couldn't conduct the class himself, so although he was representing Hisa sensei, Tsuruyama san did what he liked in class. He did I believe receive either an 7th or 8th dan from Hisa sensei, but not menkyo kaiden, which he latter retracted from his second edition of his book on aikido. On a later edition, I heard he inserted something similiar back into the book, changing the wording.

By the way, Mr. Ohgami has met Mr. Ohmiya (which is only his pen name). I can't vouch for his ability, but he is a shinto priest. I can't vouch for Tsuruyama's aility either. I believe what is being called into question is Tsuruyama's character. Even in Stanley Pranins book, "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters," the generous Okamoto sensei sensei didn't having glowing words about him either.

So, I hope that may clear up some doubts that many people had. I have taken a look at Ohmiya's book. It's pretty basic, nothing extraordinary.

Best wishes,

Louis Butto
Kobe, Japan

Chris Li
2nd December 2002, 23:06
Originally posted by Louis Butto
Dear Gentle People

I would like to respond to Chris Li's comments about Kenkichi Ohgami's article on the AikidoJournal online site, since I'm part responsible for its content. The comments about Tsuruyama, who was Ohmiya's teacher were infact negative. In a book published by Tsuruyama, he claimed to have been awarded menkyo kaidan from Hisa sensei. I saw the postcard from Hisa sensei denouncing that claim, which was written to Mr. Ohgami. Hisa sensei also had other trouble with Tsuruyama who was conducting a Daito Ryu class on his behalf in Tokyo. Hisa was quite aged by then, and couldn't conduct the class himself, so although he was representing Hisa sensei, Tsuruyama san did what he liked in class. He did I believe receive either an 7th or 8th dan from Hisa sensei, but not menkyo kaiden, which he latter retracted from his second edition of his book on aikido. On a later edition, I heard he inserted something similiar back into the book, changing the wording.

That pretty much summarizes what was covered in the article. I looked back, and I have what I believe is the second edition of his book "Aikido", since the one I have was published in Showa 50 and the original was (I believe) published 4 years earlier. In the one that I have he doesn't discuss his lineage at all.

The timeline that I've seen has him getting 8th dan from Takuma Hisa in Showa 50, which would be 4 years after the publication of the original book that caused all the trouble, which seems kind of puzzling to me since it would have occurred after the problems between him and Hisa began. It also has him getting menkyo kaiden in Showa 52, which would have been 6 years after the original publication. Do you know the date of the postcard?


Originally posted by Louis Butto
By the way, Mr. Ohgami has met Mr. Ohmiya (which is only his pen name). I can't vouch for his ability, but he is a shinto priest. I can't vouch for Tsuruyama's aility either. I believe what is being called into question is Tsuruyama's character. Even in Stanley Pranins book, "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters," the generous Okamoto sensei sensei didn't having glowing words about him either.

I had forgotten about that one. Okamoto states that Kodo Horikawa complained that Tsuruyama exaggerated their relationship (Kodo Horikawa apparently voiced a similar complaint concerning Yukiyoshi Sagawa).

Anyway, various squabbles of the figures involved aside, it does appear that Ohmiya does have an actual connection to the Daito-ryu world, if he did actually train with Tsuruyama, although how skilled he is I couldn't say.

Best,

Chris

O'Neill
4th December 2002, 01:29
Was Takuma Hisa in the habit of letting frauds teach on his behalf?
Surely Tsuruyama must have had some measure of skill, although menkyo kaiden wasn't likely at all. Maybe he was skillful but lacked integrity.

Erin O'Neill

Aiki Budo
5th December 2002, 21:22
Originally posted by kusanku
Dr. Howie, a godan in Yoshinkan, said at one point that in Japan, he had gotten to study some Daito Ryu, and that it was completely different than Aikido.

Said that while Yoshinkan Aikido is definitely meant to be effective in self defense, Daito Ryu's purpose appeared to be to kill the opponent so quick he wouldn't even realize that he was dead.



I have never understood the above thinking about Daito-ryu being a killing art!!! There is a famous quote from Takeda Sensei saying something along the lines of "We will not be kicked, struck or killed and we will not kick, strike or kill. This art is completely for self-defense and the misuse of this art would be frightening."

Takeda himself was stating that the art was for self-defense, not for killing. So, I don't understand this thinking. It contradicts what Takeda said about Daito-ryu.

Nathan Scott
7th December 2002, 00:04
Aiki Budo,

Please adjust your signature option to include your full, real name in all posts.

As for what Daito ryu is or isn't, I would point out that teachers often will make a statement that suits their point of view at the time, even though the comment may sound all encompassing. If you were to ask Sokaku if the same methods could or should be used on the battlefield, he would probably have said yes, and explained how to adapt certain techniques for that application.

Takeda Tokimune, Sokaku's son, said in CWDRM on page 53 that: "If you hold an opponent down with your entire weight concentrated on your knee, both of your hands are free. Then you can cut his throat.... Each and every technique is lethal"

If you were to ask Tokimune if the same methods could/should be used for police arresting methods, he would say yes (guessing since he used to teach Daito ryu to the police).

So I wouldn't put too much weight in any one authoratative statement. Such statements are made in certain contexts and often change if an appropriate circumstance is presented.

Regards,

kusanku
7th December 2002, 02:44
What Mr. Scott said above is my understanding of this issue as well.It was also my understanding that Uyeshiba said or wrote both, that Aikido could be lethal in any waza, and ever waza could be made to kill. And that's Hombu Aikido.

As for Yoshinkan, , I had to laugh and remember my own painful expoerience, limited though it be, with that art, as I read the Book Angry White Pajamas and one Instructor confides to the battered and beaten author who as a self test, decided to enroll with the Tokyo Riot Police in the senshusei intensive training course:'Yoshinkan is Kamikaze.'

The Gentle art, for sure.

As I understand it again, and I am by no means sure of any complete or perfect understanding especially of this subject, but the Daito Ryu comes from the Aizu-han samurai, and if I remember correctly, samurai often had to kill opponents on the battlefield, including with the art or arts that gave rise to Daito Ryu.

It would be better to Ask Howie Sensei of his ecxperience in Japan with Daito Ryu, but he characterized Yoshinkan Aikido to me, as a modern martial art which retained a more warlike spirit than much Aikido, while Daito Ryu was a Samurai art designed to kill quickly and efficiently.Since Dr. Howie was at that time Godan in Yoshinkan under the Hombu in Japan, I teneded to accept his tatements on the subject.I regret I did not ask where he took his DRAJJ training, it may have been the Kodokai.

And I read somewhere, that interview maybe, with Takeda Tokimune, that zanshin in DRAJJ is defined as paying attention to the opponent until you have cut their throat?

Anyhow, with the links between 'Omiya' and Hisa Sensei somehwat established,what we may possibly assume is that the basic he presents in his book, are sound?This, previously, I hadn't known.I more regarded Shioda's book 'Total Aikido' as a really detailed presentation at least of the Yoshinkan mechanics.Of course Yoshinkan, and something a French Sandan called AikiBudo, no relation to sig above unless there is? Are what I had any hands' on with.

They were quite different one from another. I was very impressed with Yoshinkan's standardized and step by step approach to basic instruction, training and self-development, as I am somewhat of a slow learner myself, and have no assurance of being able to instantly pick anything up, insights to the contrary.:D

The Aiki Budo was painful, iresistable and impressive, and the waza were for application rather than for self training, although certain kata such as ippon dori were demonstrated, as used for training purposes.The stances were more upright and natural than the Yoshinkan training ones, and the amount of atemi used was a lttle more, not much though, in the AikiBudo.

Both seemed very effective.I would say the Yoshinkan waza were kinder except that the Shuwakan Dojo people knew that I was at the time a fourth dan in Okinawan Karate, drat it, and made sure to show me the very most combat applicable waza, when working on I mean, with, me.:D Ouch.

Sankyo is not usually thought of as extremely painful excpet in one dimension, upward at the shoulder. I had no idea it could cause so much different pain in so many places, until Dysarz Sensei, Sandan, demo'ed it on me.She could really slap it on you, too.:-)

Eric Joyce
7th December 2002, 16:45
John,

I just read your reply on Shiro's book. Do you practice Yoshinkan aikido? If so, from one fellow practioner to another...Osu!

Eric

kusanku
8th December 2002, 17:40
Eric-
Osu!
I am but the veriest beginner in that art, but I sure like what of it that I have experienced, and I think the Shioda's, Father and Son's, book Total Aikido is the Bee's Knees!

The Daito Ryu Book of Shiro Omiya is interesting, in that it contains much that is familar and much that is not, as it were one whole, and if that is from even the basic Daito Ryu Jioujitsu, highly interesting, now that some actual legitimacy has been established.

From what I understand, some people had bene given as much as sandan, on a promise to train basis, but not eighth dan, so there must have been at least some actual stuff, transmitted, or so I would think.

Now, in Yoshinkan, since all dojo are under the Hombu as non profit organization world wide, and standards are maintained in a uniform fashion, you can in that art, be sure that what you felt was the real deal.

I have been quite impressed with Shiosda Sensei's emphasis on the basic training there, and on standardizing and 'parting-up' the training methods, so that it is all step by step at basic level.

I understand Shioda Gozo Sensei studied DRAJJ with Kodo Horikawa for some time, and that the photo of the later is on the Hobu Dojo's wall , with the other teachers.

How much of DR is in Yoshinkan, I don't know, but it does seem to me a bit diferent than other Aikido styles, except the Shodokai, Tomiki style, I believe, and he also had maybe some DR certificate?Possibly from Uyeshiba?

Anyway, this is all very interesting.

Eric Joyce
8th December 2002, 21:23
Too be honest with you John, I see a few techniques from DR in Yoshinkan, but not a lot. At the time Shioda Sensei was studying Aikido, it was the the same time when O'Sensei was teaching Daito Ryu (or Aiki Budo..Nathan can correct me if I am wrong.) I believe it was around this time when O'Sensei was in the"modification" phase of his Aikido. Some elements where changed while other elements remaind.

I do agree with you on the teaching method. It is by far (IMHO) one of the best teaching methods. It teaches you good posture, basic movements, and gives you an understanding of what the kihon dosa is, what it means and how it relates to the execution of techniques. Basically, its gives you a very good foundation. I love it.

Nathan Scott
9th December 2002, 21:15
Hi guys,

First off, Total Aikido is a GREAT Aikido book, and even though what I teach is not orthodox Yoshinkan, I still recommend this as "the" book on Aikido to buy to my students (for what we do at least).

But keep in mind that the "standardized" Aikido that has become Yoshinkan Aikido is not exactly the same thing that Shioda Sensei performed personally. The standardized waza were created by a couple of his senior students to better control and systemitize the teaching of Aikido to large groups of people (police, university and military). Watch old videos of Shioda Sensei for comparison, and pick up a copy of "Dynamic Aikido" by Gozo Shioda while you can still find a copy. The techniques in Dynamic Aikido, a much older book (of which Obata Toshishiro Sensei is featured in the back!) shows a number of Shioda S.'s techniques, which are very close to the Aiki Budo of Ueshiba S., and in some cases, what I've seen of Daito ryu basic jujutsu as it may have been practiced at that time (that is another topic for discussion).

Also, I wouldn't over emphasize the connection between Horikawa Sensei and Shioda Sensei. While it is clear that Shioda S. respected Horikawa S. and that they met on at least 2-3 occasions, it is not clear that there was any kind of teacher/student relationship. However, if you look at Shioda's movement, it is sure seems like he was trying to incorporate what he saw Horikawa S. doing in his line of DR. As one example, the emphasis on opening the hands strongly with spread fingers by the Yoshinkan was something that even the Aikikai group did to a lesser degree in the early days, as evidenced by Ueshiba Kisshomaru S. in his book "Aikido". Kondo Sensei's mainline group assumes a similar posture, as does the now defunct DR Seishinkai group and the Takumakai. But these days, Yoshinkan is pretty much the only Aikido group that you'll see doing this as a regular habit (as well as the Aiki-Buken that I study under Obata Sensei).

Additionally, I visited the Yoshinkan Honbu dojo in 1998, and the only photograph that was displayed in the main dojo was that of Shioda Sensei just below the shinzen. There used to be a number of photos displayed of the various senior Yoshinkan instructors previously, but we were informed that they are all currently in storage and they don't know what they will be doing with them at this time. Perhaps we will find out who all is included in that collection eventually.

As far as the techiniques in the "Hiden Roots" book goes, I'd still encourage readers to approach the work with skepticism. I was going through it again last night, and found some more interesting sections of text, but was still unimpressed by the types of techiniques shown. The terminology he uses for the techniques seem to be a mix of Aikido terminology and some other type of nomenclature ("fire dragon", "water dragon", etc.) that I don't recognize at all.

Regards,

Chris Li
9th December 2002, 22:03
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
as does the now defunct DR Seishinkai group

Now defunct? Is there something that I haven't heard?

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
9th December 2002, 23:42
Hi Chris,

Yes, the Seishinkai splintered into three different factions not long ago - Sano, Kato/Arisawa & Okabayashi. It would seem that, in the case of the first two groups, there was "irreconcilable differences". I've been preparing a detailed response to this issue in hopes of reaching some degree of closure. One of Kondo Sensei's students is also writing an article or essay on this as well, from what I understand.

I'll post my stuff in the Seishinkai sub-forum here, as well as on the Aikido Journal board.

Regards,

Chris Li
9th December 2002, 23:53
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hi Chris,

Yes, the Seishinkai splintered into three different factions not long ago - Sano, Kato/Arisawa & Okabayashi. It would seem that, in the case of the first two groups, there was "irreconcilable differences". I've been preparing a detailed response to this issue in hopes of reaching some degree of closure. One of Kondo Sensei's students is also writing an article or essay on this as well, from what I understand.

Ah, OK I'd heard about the split, but not too many details. The Kato/Arisawa group is still continuing under the Seishinkai name, isn't it? When I heard "defunct" my first thought was that they had had a change of venue as well...

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
10th December 2002, 01:49
Not quite - Okabayashi, as you know, started his own line called Hakuhokai (DR or otherwise). Kato/Arisawa formed a group that they are calling "Nihon Daito ryu Aikibudo", of which Kato is the "Soshi" of. Sano formed a group called "Daito ryu Aikibudo Shiseikan", but it is possible that he may have chosen to retire after receiving a (reply) letter from Kondo Sensei. I don't have confirmation of whether Sano is still teaching or not though.

Sano stated quite clearly in a letter to Kondo S. that the Seishinkai was dissolved though.

Regards,

Dan Harden
10th December 2002, 03:38
Nathan Writes
Also, I wouldn't over emphasize the connection between Horikawa Sensei and Shioda Sensei. While it is clear that Shioda S. respected Horikawa S. and that they met on at least 2-3 occasions, it is not clear that there was any kind of teacher/student relationship.

******************************

This is not true. There is written proof to contradict this. I will not write in detail so you may freely dismiss what I am saying or not. I have taken this issue up with Stanley as well.
From what I have seen it does explain a strong technical divergence on his part from the other students of Ueshiba and mores the point- a definitive personal expression in movement that is more in keeping with Daito ryu.

cheers
Dan

Chris Li
10th December 2002, 03:38
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Not quite - Okabayashi, as you know, started his own line called Hakuhokai (DR or otherwise). Kato/Arisawa formed a group that they are calling "Nihon Daito ryu Aikibudo", of which Kato is the "Soshi" of. Sano formed a group called "Daito ryu Aikibudo Shiseikan", but it is possible that he may have chosen to retire after receiving a (reply) letter from Kondo Sensei. I don't have confirmation of whether Sano is still teaching or not though.

Sano stated quite clearly in a letter to Kondo S. that the Seishinkai was dissolved though.

Regards,

Well that's interesting, more detail than I'd heard before. Thanks!

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
10th December 2002, 03:44
Originally posted by Dan Harden
This is not true. There is written proof to contradict this. I will not write in detail so you may freely dismiss what I am saying or not. I have taken this issue up with Stanley as well.
From what I have seen it does explain a strong technical divergence on his part from the other students of Ueshiba and mores the point- a definitive personal expression in movement that is more in keeping with Daito ryu.

For those who are interested, the thread (and Stan's thoughts on the matter) is here (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000950) .

As for technical divergence - Shioda thought the divergence was slight enough that he asked M. Saito to take over after him at one point (Saito turned him down).

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
10th December 2002, 03:55
This is not true. There is written proof to contradict this. I will not write in detail so you may freely dismiss what I am saying or not. I have taken this issue up with Stanley as well.

O.K., then I stand erected... I mean, corrected. I mean, sit corrected.

Actually Dan, I just read the AJ thread and there is still no confirmation that they trained together, aside from the *possibility* of Shioda S. having signed Horikawa Sensei's enrollment book - which is unconfirmed. I think everyone agrees that they met, and I know of the evidence of this meeting that you speak of. But I have not seen evidence that suggests that they trained together, outside of a few technical similarities between the arts. Feel free to PM/email me if I'm still erected - I mean, corrected!

Regards,

Dan Harden
10th December 2002, 04:09
Actually I should have just PM'ed you to begin with. It is true though. Check your box
me

Eric Joyce
10th December 2002, 13:28
Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the info. Would you say the style of aikido you practice (under Obata Sensei) is more in line with Shioda Sensei taught in the early years vs. what is currently being taught by Shioda's senior students (Terada, Inoue). I'm just curious. I visited your website and have read up a little bit about Obata's style and I was impressed. I was just curious. Thanks. :)

Ron Tisdale
10th December 2002, 14:48
Osu! Eric,

I'm not sure Terada Sensei would best be qualified as a "senior student"...wasn't he a co-founder of the Yoshinkan? Inoue and Chida Sensei sure qualify as senior students though. And I do see some significant differences between what they do and what Shioda Kancho did. But I still like what they do *very* much!

I also see some differences in technique in people who spent most of their time with Terada Sensei (Amos Parker being one fine example).

Ron Tisdale

Eric Joyce
10th December 2002, 15:14
Osu! Ron,

Your probably right on Terada Sensei. Also, your right, I like what the senior students do very much too. Amos Parker is a very fine example too. He's the head of our group now (since the passing of Gilbert James Sensei of Chicago). I see some variances in some of Amos Parker's techniques but I still get crippled all the same. :) The guy has very powerful movements.

Ron Tisdale
10th December 2002, 15:29
My sympathies on the passing of your Sensei. We were all saddened by your loss.

I would love to do more training with Parker Shihan...what a guy! Do you have much contact with Steven Miranda Sensei? I know he's under Parker Shihan as well.

Take care,
Ron

Eric Joyce
10th December 2002, 19:42
I have been talking (mostly thru email and phone converstaions) to Sensei Miranda. He's pretty cool. I am also talking and working together with one of his students who is opening a Yoshinkai dojo in Phoenix. I am relocating out there soon and I will be continuing my training there. I can't stand the weather in Chicago anymore. After 30 years, I'm spent.

Nathan Scott
10th December 2002, 20:05
Mr. Joyce,

Yes, the Aiki Buken of Obata Sensei is based largely on early Yoshinkan. There was apparently some methodology and technique that the uchi-deshi were taught that regular students were not. Some of these methods are training methods, while others are just old techniques. He has incorporated all of this into what he teaches now. There are a few things that he feels could be improved upon as well, and has developed quite a bit of his own methodology and waza in order to fill such gaps.

Obata Sensei apparently has quite the reputation in Yoshinkan circles, but does not attend Yoshinkan events anymore - aside from continuing a friendship with his old training partner Tereda Shihan. Obata Sensei's methods are very smooth, often times very painful, and very effective. It is not necessary to throw yourself when uke'ing for him - unless of course you are in fear of losing an important part of your body by not following correctly.

We incorporate gyaku-waza, tanto, jodori, bojutsu and taihojutsu (that stuff is really painful). Our web page has almost nothing on it, but I'm encouraging Sensei to put some MPEG's or something on there in the near future. I'm working on a history page currently.

BTW, Shioda Sensei was issued a Daito ryu mokuroku by Ueshiba Sensei in the earlier years, but apparently the mokuroru was lost or destroyed. After that he received densho that used the term Aiki Budo, and eventually Aikido.

Regards,

Eric Joyce
10th December 2002, 20:32
Thanks Nathan.

There is a school in Phoenix next to my house near the Ahwatukee Foothills that I will stop by and check out. I think the Sensei's there are Gene Hauenstein and a Ed Bergwerff. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting them but I will make it a point to stop by their dojo. I did see your web page and I thought it was awesome. Keep up the good work!!

:)

Nathan Scott
10th December 2002, 21:03
Hi,

Thanks for the kind words. Gene Sensei is a good friend of mine, so please say hello to him (and Ed) if you visit.
Regards,

kusanku
11th December 2002, 22:10
Thank you guys for the ongoing discussion and information. Inteeresting about Shioda's early connections and training.

Have got a hold of a copy of Dynamic Aikido. While much shorter than the Total Aikido, it does seem to have a different emphasis.

The hiji jime waza is interesting, as are the self defense techniques shown in the back.In fact, its a very good book.

The business about the hand opening at beginning, emphasized in Yoshinkan, yes, so that too, is a DR characteristic.

In the Okinawan art of udundi( same as gotente, palace hand), based on sword movement and maybe descended from the jigen ryu, the hand also opens during the tuiti techniques. However, at least one variant occurs, in the Okinawan version I was exposed to thru Ryukyu Kempo, the fingers straighten but are held together. This may be influenced however by karate, which is often practiced alongside or as part of the udundi.Or for all I know there may have been some aiki stuff transplanted there.Or even some Chinese idea.But the stuff sure looks more Japanese to me.The jujitsu, if you would call it that, seems very familiar.

I had not realized the other Aikido styles do not so much do that splaying of the fingers, as my exposure has been to Yoshinkan.This adds a lot of strength in the sense of budo strength, to waza.

Shioda Sensei then, had indeed gotten certification in DR from Uyeshiba, that would explain a lot, I suppose.

Anyhow, thanks again, this connection is very interesting.

Omiya's book, well, I got a bag of salt I take with it, I hadn't placed much reliance on it save as a list of some mostly jujitsu waza. and there are many good publications containing some good jiujitsu for those interested.

One is a series of books published by a Chinese master, and called, Shaolin Chin Na, Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na, Combat Applications of Shaolin Chin Na, and Taiji Chin Na, the latter containing more subtle applications and atemi waza, based on the Taijiquan form.

I believe he has incorporated his study of many forms of locking and grappling into these texts, he says that he has.But they are a fairly goods manual of jiujitsu type waza.Good technical principles and analysis, a buddy of mine who is sandan in Jiujitsu, trains with Dr. Yang regularly.I would say the basics are quite sound, though I think Yoshinkan has as gopod a foundational training, focussing on far fewer waza to impart the principles.

However, the statement about what Shioda himself did, being somewhat different, backed by your evidences of Dynamic Aikido and the old films of him, which I have seen, is also sound.

The Okinawan stuff, is done walking with straight knees, on the balls of the feet with weight distributed over the big toes, and is based on two swrod priniples. If that sounds familiar. It employs a straight legged type of kicking, one shot atemi waza, and locks and throws based also, on sword movements.This is the udundi. At basic levels , training resembles some type of jiujitsu using atemi first, then after this, locking, then finally a type of odori called mouidi, martial dance, by its curent master Seikichi Uehara.

This last is a continuous defense against mutiple armed assailants, somewhat reminiscent of the type of thing seen when Ueshiba and Shioda and the others demonstrated for the Emperor in 1935.

What the connections are here I do not know. Some claim that Uehara has a certificate in some form of Japanmese Jiujitsu and that too may be true, but does not encesarily invalidate the claim to an older art.

The Shimazu samurai controlled Okinawa for many years and one karate master to the King, named Matsumura, had a menkyo in Jigen Ryu martial arts.He did refer to palace martial arts, somewhat contemptuosly, as being suited mainly for women.Probably because of the dancing hand or odori te part of the art.

The highest level of the art was a sort of spontaneous kata thing called anjin no maikata, the dancing kata of the (sea) lords.

The name suggests it cam from the mainland and the samurai. which is why I had suspected an aiki connection.The kata which may have been lost, contained no waza, only principles, and was said to be about unbalancing attackers.

The saying that , or song, that goes with it, was said to say among other things, 'Do not ask about Anjin's Dancing Kata-it would upset you.'

I think that may be a pun.Since upsetting is what it is supposed to teach. The principles and many techniques based on it however, are said to survive.

In the demo I saw, a man did what looked like an old folk dance and as opponents attacked, threw them without breaking the rhythm of the dance.Did look like some kind of aikido.

Louis Butto
15th December 2002, 08:22
I wanted to properly respond to Chris Li's post regarding Tsuruyama and Hisa sensei's relationship, but it took me awhile to gather the info. I should state that Tsuruyama first published his book (entitled "Aikido: Aiki jodo aibudo kenkyukai) published by Seibido in Showa 46 (1971) in which he did not state that he had received the menkyo kaiden. Since then, there have been many printings. I believe you can buy this book even today. I saw a copy printed in Showa 58 (1983) after Hisa sensei passed away in 1980 which it clearly states on the second page that he received the menkyo kaiden from Hisa sensei. Oddly enough, it states that Hisa issued a menkyo kaiden in the name of NIHONDEN AIKIJUJUTSU SOKE. So Daito Ryu wasn't even mentioned. Kind of deceptive.

Mr. Ohgami thinks that Tsuruyama received his 8th dan around Showa 50 or so. In any case, this claim of the menkyo kaiden seems to have come after receiving the 8th dan. It can be found in the 2nd or 3rd printings of his book and later editions. Since he received the 8th dan, he probably got a little boastful. Since Hisa sensei was still alive around the second or third printings, he must have seen this. In a postcard to Mr. Ohgami dated Showa 52 (1977) October 27th, he stated clearly that he did not issue Tsuruyama any menkyo kaiden, among other things. It should also be mentioned that Mr. Tsuruyama had rankings and experience in one of other Ueshiba aikido schools and in Jodo (stickfighting).

Concerning squabbles, I think we just wanted to clarify Mr. Tsuruyama did not receive menkyo kaiden. Hisa sensei was emphatic about that point. I'm sure he had expereince and ability. Mr. Ohgami thinks Mr. Ohmiya is a fine man, and probably is quite able, although he has never seen his skill.

And as you may know, quite often after the 2nd or 3rd dan rankings, higher ranks were not given out necessarily based on ability. At least as far as Hisa sensei was concerned, I heard he took into consideration your character and successes in society. For example, if you were promoted at work, he might issue you a new ranking. This was a very wholistic view of ranking that is perhaps not seen with people who think only in terms of ability. So as the AikidoJournal interview with Mr. Ohgami mentions, Hisa sensei noticed (after the 8th dan ranking was issued) that Tsuruyama was going his own way, which is fine, but not suitable to receive the menkyo kaiden in Daito Ryu.

Anyway, if you can still purchase the book by Tsuruyama, have a look and compare it with Ohmiya's. Basic stuff I think, nothing controversial or revealing.

I'm sorry my explanation was a bit verbose for some. Thanks for your patience.

Very best

Louis Butto

Chris Li
15th December 2002, 11:52
Originally posted by Louis Butto
Anyway, if you can still purchase the book by Tsuruyama, have a look and compare it with Ohmiya's. Basic stuff I think, nothing controversial or revealing.

I'm sorry my explanation was a bit verbose for some. Thanks for your patience.

Very best

Louis Butto

Thanks! My copy is older, so it doesn't have any of the menkyo kaiden stuff. The book, if anybody is interested, is a fairly basic overview of the art containing some technique, some history, and some basic discussion of Aikido (Daito-ryu) theory. AFAIK the book is out of print, but there are still copies floating around here and there.

My impression from the book, and from speaking to some folks that trained with him, is that Tsuruyama tended to be pretty eclectic in his views, which may be one of the points at which he ran into trouble with Hisa.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
16th December 2002, 06:44
Thanks for the information guys.

I actually tried to special order the book a few weeks ago and heard back that Tsuruyama's book is in fact OOP.

Let me know if you come across any copies!

O'Neill
16th December 2002, 20:23
I have seen other books available from OHmiya sensei. So was he a student of the nihonden Aikijujutsu group? At least his sensei was awarded legit rank from Takuma hisa, so they don't qualify as fake.
Do any of the terms in this book (kaisho no den, example) come from the teachings of takuma hisa? Some of them must be from the nihonden group.

Louis Butto
17th December 2002, 04:50
Nice to hear from you again Erin. But Hisa sensei didn't belong to any Nihonden group, so he couldn't issue such a menkyo kaiden in that name. If Tsuruyama san received a menkyo kaiden from a Nihonden group, it should have been issued by someone from that group. Hisa sensei could only issue a Daito Ryu menkyo kaiden.

Thanks again,

Louis

Chris Li
28th February 2003, 03:57
This book was mentioned in another thread here (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17461) so it came to mind.

I was talking recently with some long time students of Tsuruyama Kozui, and according to them the author of the book (Shiro Omiya) only studied with Tsuruyama for an extremely brief time.

It also appears as if there is quite a bit of evidence (including hours of tape recorded discussions) concerning Takuma Hisa and Tsuruyama's relationship that hasn't been publicized, but take that as you will, since it seems unlikely that those will be released for public consumption anytime soon.

Best,

Chris

Louis Butto
28th February 2003, 05:10
Chris,

The Tsuruyama thing is endless. So is the Okabyashi sensei thing on another thread. I have my biases since I can go only on what my teacher has told me concerning Tsuruyama, Hisa and Okabayashi. Can't say much about Omiya, as mentioned before, that is his pen name and he is a shinto priest. I can tell that Mr. Ohgami really respected, followed and was very fond of Hisa sensei. Most students (especailly Japanese) tend to protect their teachers and support them, an Asian tradition. I've also heard tapes with Hisa sensei, but not regarding Tsuruyama.By the way, which school are you affiliated with? Seems like you have been at this a long time.

Best Reagrds,

Louis Butto

Chris Li
1st March 2003, 23:57
Originally posted by Louis Butto
Chris,

The Tsuruyama thing is endless. So is the Okabyashi sensei thing on another thread. I have my biases since I can go only on what my teacher has told me concerning Tsuruyama, Hisa and Okabayashi. Can't say much about Omiya, as mentioned before, that is his pen name and he is a shinto priest. I can tell that Mr. Ohgami really respected, followed and was very fond of Hisa sensei. Most students (especailly Japanese) tend to protect their teachers and support them, an Asian tradition. I've also heard tapes with Hisa sensei, but not regarding Tsuruyama.By the way, which school are you affiliated with? Seems like you have been at this a long time.

Best Reagrds,

Louis Butto

Endless, but love that gossip :).

Actually, I'm mostly Aikikai, but I train with the Tsuruyama folks and others (from both Daito-ryu and Aikido) when I can.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
4th November 2003, 03:14
Here are some more thoughts about Tsuruyama Kozui from a thread titled "Letter Response" (http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000013.html) on the AJ forum that got off-topic:


Posted by Stanley Pranin, 06-26-2000:

Tsuruyama [Kozui] Sensei's claim to fame was the publication of at least two books, one on aikido and Daito-ryu and the other on jo if I remember correctly. He had a very brief study of Daito-ryu with Tokimune Sensei and Hisa Takuma, but mostly operated independently. He died a few years ago and there are a couple of groups in Japan that are descendant from his organization. Tokimune Sensei told me clearly that his study of Daito-ryu was very minimal.

Pretty controversial guy,

grondahl
19th November 2003, 14:43
"As one example, the emphasis on opening the hands strongly with spread fingers by the Yoshinkan was something that even the Aikikai group did to a lesser degree in the early days, as evidenced by Ueshiba Kisshomaru S. in his book "Aikido". Kondo Sensei's mainline group assumes a similar posture, as does the now defunct DR Seishinkai group and the Takumakai. But these days, Yoshinkan is pretty much the only Aikido group that you'll see doing this as a regular habit (as well as the Aiki-Buken that I study under Obata Sensei)."

A little bit off-topic and late but:
Iwama-style aikido train and uses the open hand with spread fingers to..