PDA

View Full Version : practicing aikido against other arts



M Clarke
18th May 2001, 03:45
Saw a bit of a program last night about a Chinese migrant teaching kung fu in Sydney. His students looked pretty impressive - a wing chun hard fast punches and low kicks on the centre line sort of style. I got the feeling that they could shift pretty well while keeping up that barrage fists, backfists and elbows. Got me thinking I should seek out a wing chun person and ask if I could train with them and see how/if effective aikido techniques would be against their stuff. Does one here do this - against boxers or kick boxers - that sort of thing? How have you found your aikido in these situations?
Best regards

Gil Gillespie
19th May 2001, 18:33
Please don't view the following as trying to tell you how to train. I would advise you not to think in terms of trying out your aikido skills AGAINST these wing chun practitioners, but rather incorporate their principles into your broader MA understanding, however you find the fit. One of my sempai has experienced this exact process and his aikido and his instruction have become a FORCE. That may or may not happen to you and one need not cross-train to become effective: aikido is complete unto itself. Just be careful of falling into the old bear vs tiger mindset.

A thought in leaving. "Aikido works. Your Aikido doesn't work. Don't confuse the difference." -----Hiroshi Ikeda

PRehse
19th May 2001, 19:07
Gil;

Nice post - I would add that exactly how would you test your art against another. By whose rules would you play. For (name your MA) to work what Aikido principles do you have to sacrifice. For example Wing Chun tends to work best under close quarters and that would mean disregarding ma ai.

I cross-train, have great fun doing it, but like you said Aikido is a complete art. It's all there you just have to find it. Exploring your weaknesses from anothers perspective is enlightening.



Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
Please don't view the following as trying to tell you how to train. I would advise you not to think in terms of trying out your Aikido skills AGAINST these wing chun practitioners, but rather incorporate their principles into your broader MA understanding, however you find the fit. One of my sempai has experienced this exact process and his Aikido and his instruction have become a FORCE. That may or may not happen to you and one need not cross-train to become effective: Aikido is complete unto itself. Just be careful of falling into the old bear vs tiger mindset.

A thought in leaving. "Aikido works. Your Aikido doesn't work. Don't confuse the difference." -----Hiroshi Ikeda

George Ledyard
19th May 2001, 20:06
I would highly recommend that you check it out. I have had some exposure to Wing Chun through my friends locally who are Jeet Kun Do instructors under Guru Dan Inosanto.

The first thing I found was that Aikido people grab too much. When you train with people who are experienced with trapping techniques and slipping the traps, you find out just how hard it is to grab someone in order to lock them. I studied a Silat film of Paul Dethouars and noticed that he was essentially doing many of the same locking techniques and throwing techniques that we do in Aikido but he was able to accomplish them more through entanglement rather than grabbing. They flowed right out of his striking combinations. In my opinion that is the way in which Aikido should work.

It is very humbling to try our Kihon Waza against someone who knows how not to get grabbed or locked. Makes it clear why 90% of Aikido is atemi.

I also found that the Wing Chun / Jeet Kun Do (and Kali/Silat) exercises that I was taught improved my ability to use my hands separately in Aikido. Often we use weapons movements in our Aikido technique. But the standard weapons are the staff and the sword. In both those weapons the hands are placed on a solid and inflexible weapon so that the movement of the hands is simultaneous. The ability to use the hands separately, which is required for effective empty hand defense, is not very developed in most Aikidoka. Saotome Sensei tried to address this by developing his Two Sword forms. Experience with the flow drills used in Wing Chun etc. also will positively effect this.

Robert Bryner Sensei has a couple videos out which show how you can incorporate a flow drill from Kali / Silat into Aikido to deal specifically with this issue.
http://www.thedojousa.com/
I am sure that Wing Chun would open up a number of areas of study that would be equally interesting.

M Clarke
21st May 2001, 01:18
Thank you for your posts.
George, very thought provoking, thank you. When viewing the program, I was thinking of the barrage of short verticle fists, elbows and back fists which seemed incredibly fast, but your post reminded me of their sticking (sticky?) hands. Wonder how judo would go here. I have practiced tegumi with my last instructor who was also a Ryukyu karate teacher (same style as and known to Patrick McCarthy but learned under Ted Lang who trained with Hohan Sokan. sp?). We looked at the bunkai to a number of the katas and the similarities and differences in aikido locks and throws to the karate ones. So your post actually was a reminder and wake up call to see all the arts as one again. I'm looking forward to practicing some ideas with any wing chun people I can find.
Thanks again all.
Best regards

autrelle
22nd May 2001, 12:40
i have been supplementing my aikido practice with kali and wing chun. george, i could not have said it any better than you already did. both arts are concerned with combat with little fluff. and it's fun!