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Mark Tankosich
20th May 2001, 10:07
Hi,

After 20 some years of Okinawan karate training in the States, I've recently begun training in (Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei) Shindo Muso-ryu Jodo here in Hiroshima. My question is this: How much does what I'm learning now differ from what koryu jojutsu would be like? Maybe another way of asking the same question would be: How combat realistic is what I'm learning? If there are significant differences, could someone please give me some idea of what they might be?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mark

Eric Montes
20th May 2001, 18:48
Mark,

Just as a point of clarification. If you are ONLY practicing the kata of the ZNKR, then you are not (yet) practicing Shindo/Shinto Muso Ryu.

While I was practicing in Japan, my teacher was quite emphatic about the differences between ZNKR Seiteigata and Koryu. The sequence of techniques within each of the seiteigata are almost identical to those of the SMR, but the internal dynamics are quite different. The most readily recognizable differences would probably be seen in the ma-ai and timing.

My understanding of the seiteigata is that the intent was to be able to instruct large numbers of people in the techniques while minimizing the danger. So the combat effectiveness was lessened. SMR instruction (at least in my case) was more of the "move or die" variety. Not right away of course, but incrementally.

My question for you is: Are you enjoying the practice in your dojo?

Eric

Mark Tankosich
21st May 2001, 01:33
Eric,

Thanks for the response. This was exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to enter into.

What you describe (minimizing danger for large numbers of learners) is amazingly similar to what apparently happened with karate during it's history. Actually, it was my questioning of some of the "reality" of the ma-ai, timing, etc. that I am learning that made me ask my question.

As for your question, I must admit to wondering where you're heading with it... My answer would be that, yes, I'm enjoying it in the way that one enjoys the hard work of acquiring a new physical skill, learning new techniques, etc. After all those years of karate (which I continue), it feels very fresh, if a bit "sport-like" at times. I certainly plan to continue for the foreseeable future, though at some point I'd prefer to move towards what you're describing as "real" SMR.

By the way, would you be willing to share more about your time / training in Japan & otherwise?

Mark

Eric Montes
21st May 2001, 02:51
Mark,

No disrespect intended. My question was perhaps poorly phrased. I only meant to confirm that if you are enjoying your training at this point, then the "combat" issue is a bit of a moot point.

I was only able to spend 3 years in Japan on the JET Programme. And I was fortunate to be introduced to a 7th Dan/Menkyo Kaiden while there. If you contact me privately, I will be more than happy to give you more info re name and lineage, but I would like to protect his privacy at this time. (I know this sounds like a dodge, but it is not :-) )

He was gracious enough to instruct me on a private basis for the time I was there and I am deeply indebted to him. I am not able to dedicate the time to SMR practice right now and ever day I feel guilty about it.

For almost a year we did nothing but seiteigata. (And this was with me speaking little Japanese and him speaking little English) I had had some training here in the States before starting with him and that helped quite a bit.

I was training in several other arts at the time as well (Naginata and Kyudo) so some of the concepts aided me in understanding what was being taught. I also had to unlearn/separate many habits that I had acquired. What I was taught in another ryu was not good form in SMR.

As for the "real" SMR, I am not sure I am there yet. I am working at it. It is my belief that the majority of Jo practitioners in Japan are not aware of the distinction between ZNKR Jo and SMR. There are a number of teachers who do recognize it and teach them accordingly. I was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

Eric

Mark Tankosich
21st May 2001, 05:10
Eric,

Yes, I agree with you. For now, it is a moot point. I just didn't want to spend the next few years thinking I was eating "beef," only to find out later it was "horse meat" (which, by the way, I imagine, you, like I, have eaten while in Japan!!). In other words, I'd like to be clear about what exactly I'm learning.

I certainly don't need your "info" to confirm your legitimacy or whatever, but I would like to know if there is anyone near me that I might I study under at some point. So let me ask where in Japan you were / if there's anyone you know about in the Hiroshima area that you'd recommend.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Mark

Eric Montes
21st May 2001, 05:37
Mark,

I trained in Osaka and unfortunately have no knowledge of Jo teachers in the Hiroshima region.

Matsui Kenji Sensei lists the major Seitei schools in his book on Seiteigata. Most teachers will know of someone doing koryu in the area. You might want to browse through there.

If you get a chance next year go check out the Kyoto Taikai at the Butokuden. The first morning is dedicated to Koryu and a large number of Jo people participate. Minimum rank to participate is 6th dan. You get to see a lot of stuff. Also check out some rank tests and see what other groups are doing.


Best of luck.


Anyone else have any suggestions?

Eric

Meik Skoss
21st May 2001, 16:31
If I recall correctly, the late Otofuji Haruo (a student of Shirata Hanjiro and younger brother of the late Otofuji Ichizo) lived and taught in the Hiroshima area for many years. He had a number of students (none of whose names I know), who are still doing Shinto Muso-ryu. It shouldn't be difficult to find them, either by going to the local gymnasia/prefectural Budokan. You can also get in touch with the local kendo organization, since jo is administered through them, and ask about dojo.

And, as Eric mentioned, if you're happy with the training you're doing now, don't switch! Eventually, when one's instructor feels one is ready for it, the transition to SMR will happen of its own right. In the meantime, though, it seems to me that the Seiteigata techniques are plenty.

Hope this helps.

Mark Tankosich
23rd May 2001, 12:30
Mr. Skoss, Eric,


Thanks for the information. And I'm sorry it took so long to say thanks...Things are hectic at my end.

Again, my gratitude,

Mark Tankosich