Kusari Gama

[Tony Peters]

A while back (likely pre-crash) there was some mention of a SMR Sensei in the Yokohama-Tokyo area that taught the Kus. I ask because I am going to be moving to Yokosuka (south of yokohama) next year and am sorta looking for a sensei. I'm looking for a SMR teacher within a short distance of the base as I'd like to train more than I do now (once a week). Any help would be appreciated
thanx
Tony

Bloody spellchecker and all

[Meik Skoss]

T. Peters wrote: "A while back (likely pre-crash) there was some mention of a SMR sensei in the Yokohama-Tokyo area that taught the sensei. I ask because I am going to be moving to Yokosuka (south of Yokohama) next year and am sorta looking for a sensei. I'm looking for a SMR teacher within a short distance of the base as I'd like to train more than I do now (once a week). Any help would be appreciated."

"A Shinto Muso-ryu teacher who teaches the sensei?" Is it the kusarigama you're referring to, which you've listed in the topic header?

If so, you're probably going to have to wait for a bit, as one needs to train long enough to begin working in the fuzoku budo. From what QC and SF told me, that will be a while. All things in due time...

In any event, the way to go about this is to ask *your* instructor for an introduction. He'll be happy to help you in continuing your training.

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by Meik Skoss

"A Shinto Muso-ryu teacher who teaches the sensei?" Is it the kusarigama you're referring to, which you've listed in the topic header?

If so, you're probably going to have to wait for a bit, as one needs to train long enough to begin working in the fuzoku budo. From what QC and SF told me, that will be a while. All things in due time...

In any event, the way to go about this is to ask *your* instructor for an introduction. He'll be happy to help you in continuing your training.

Opps I was tired and let the spell checker do more than I should

I sometimes forget that I've only been at it a little over a year I do so enjoy it. As well as the fact that the SMR world is quite small. And I have likely just been quite rude. Yes I should just sit back down and continue training. Thank you.
Peace
Tony
BTW less anyone think that anything above is anything less that serious (i.e. sarcastic) it is not.

[charlesl]

M. Skoss wrote: "If so, you're probably going to have to wait for a bit, as one needs to train long enough to begin working in the fuzoku budo. "

Hiya! Quick question: what is "fuzoku budo?"

-Charles Lockhart

[Meik Skoss]

The Shinto Muso-ryu fuzoku budo are the martial arts associated with SMR and (generally) taught to people after they have gained a certain amount of experience in jojutsu. They include a variety of weapons/systems that were studied by low-ranking bushi of the Kuroda domain (J.: han) as part of what Matsui calls "dangyo" (lit., men's stuff).

The fuzoku budo are: 1) Shinto-ryu kenjutsu (this is also listed on the menkyo makimono); 2) Ikkaku-ryu juttejutsu; 3) Ittatsu-ryu hojojutsu; 4) Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu, and (the most recent addition, dating from the Meiji period) 5) Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu.

Hope this helps.

[Undmark, Ulf]

Mr Skoss,

What could have been the most likely reason to organize these budo in separate ryuha, rather than to just organize them as part of Shinto muso ryu, which then would be like many other (sogo budo) ryuha, containing a few to several different weapons?

Is it really correct to say that exponents of the SMR are taught 5 ( or 6, counting Shinto ryu) different ryuha (in the case of studying all of the fuzoku budo connected to SMR)?

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Meik Skoss]

In reference to U. Undmark's question about the ryu associated with Shinto Muso-ryu, it is my understanding that (aside from the Shinto-ryu kenjutsu), all of them are separate schools that came to be associated with SMR over time. Some were developed well after the Muso-ryu was created (Uchida-ryu is a prime example); it's *possible* (unlikely, in my opinion) that one (Isshin-ryu) may even be older than SMR. Anyway, they all got lumped together as part of the Kuroda han dangyo and that's why SMR folks do them.

As far as whether or not one learns five (or six) different ryu as a part of SMR study, "sa..." (J. expression meaning "weeeellll..." -- a great way not to say anything). There are no separate licenses, to the best of my knowledge, except for Isshin-ryu. I don't what the practice is in the Fukuoka area (the other main center for SMR besides Tokyo), but I know a number of people have menkyo for Shinto Muso-ryu and nothing else. The only Tokyo teachers with a menkyo in Isshin-ryu are Hiroi Tsuneo and Kaminoda Tsunemori (I was there when they were awarded, along with a bunch of SMR licenses of various sorts, back in '77). And, I must say, they're the two of the best at kusarigama technique that I've ever seen.

Hope this helps.

[Kendoguy9]

Mr. Skoss and everyone else,

Mr. Skoss wrote, "In reference to U. Undmark's question about the ryu associated with Shinto Muso-ryu, it is my understanding that (aside from the Shinto-ryu kenjutsu), all of them are separate schools that came to be associated with SMR over time. "

In the above quote it seems that Shinto-ryu kenjutsu has a different history then the other "dangyo". Mr. Skoss, from your findings is the Shinto-ryu kenjutsu a ryu invented to complement the jodo training to help students understand the uchitachi side better? Or is the style the kenjutsu style Muso Gunnosuke studied before inventing the Shindo Muso-ryu? Or is there a door number three?

If you check out the Beikoku Rembukan's site at "www.jodo.com" they mention that the Shinto-ryu is actually much older then previously thought and is the style of Tsukuhara Bokuden. They also call the style Kasumi Shinto-ryu.

Also are there any ranks what so ever given in the "dangyo" or is it simply a matter of you know them or you don't?

boy this stuff is confusing.

[Undmark, Ulf]

!

[Meik Skoss]

C. Covington wrote: "Mr. Skoss, from your findings, is Shinto-ryu kenjutsu a ryu invented to complement the jodo training to help students understand the uchitachi side better? Or is the style the kenjutsu style Muso Gunnosuke studied before inventing the Shindo Muso-ryu? Or is there a door number three?"

I believe, from examining old densho and makimono, that what is called Shinto-ryu kenjutsu is a rubric for the "yatsu odachi, yotsu kodachi" techniques that are noted in the menkyo no maki. Their provenance is unclear to me, but the techniques themselves are wholly consistent with the way the sword is used in the uchidachi techniques of Shinto Muso-ryu. Incidentally, Nishioka Tsueno calls the Shinto-ryu techniques the omotewaza and Shinto Muso-ryu uchidachi the urawaza of ... (drum roll) ... (you've guessed it!) ... Shinto (Muso)-ryu. Take your pick.

"If you check out the Beikoku Rembukan's site ("www.jodo.com") they mention that the Shinto-ryu is actually much older then previously thought and is the style of Tsukuhara Bokuden. They also call the style Kasumi Shinto-ryu."

Which Shinto-ryu? The stuff done as one of the Shinto Muso-ryu fuzoku ryuha? It's possible, but I very much doubt it. The reason for that is that the techniques look nothing at all like other forms of Shinto-ryu, whether Kashima or Katori, from which Shinto Muso-ryu is suppposed to be derived. Those schools have techniques of battlefield provenance (both referred to as omote), with rather low stances, powerful cutting actions that are relatively slower than those done in regular clothing, restricted targeting (due to the armor), and so forth. Sword techniques in Shinto Muso-ryu all presume that both shi and uchi are wearing "normal" clothing, i.e. kimono and hakama. Stances are upright, ma-ai is different than kaisha kempo waza, techniques can be and are performed quickly and there is no restriction on targeting. What can be reached can be cut (not so in katchu waza).

"Also are there any ranks whatsoever given in the "dangyo" or is it simply a matter of you know them or you don't?"

The dangyo, per se, no longer exist, do they? What we're doing in this day and age is Shinto Muso-ryu and the fuzoku budo. 's far as I know, only Shinto Muso-ryu and Isshin-ryu have formal levels of certification: in SMR, okuiri-sho (not a rank), sho mokuroku, go mokuroku, menkyo, and menkyo kaiden; in IR, menkyo. That may be incorrect, but it's the best information I've got.

I don't know how to interpret U. Undmark's last post ("!"); I hope my response to his questions spoke to the points he raised. And this one answers C. Covington's.

[Undmark, Ulf]

My post above (which I decided to edit/delete) was responding to the Shinto ryu question. I removed the lines (but had to leave something, in this case the "!" to be able to edit [save changes] the post). The reason I removed the lines was only to be sure that the thread continued. I mean, I don't find it very exiting to read my own answers... ...so if I *don't* post them, I'll have the honor to read other members answers instead - like Meik's here above :)

Regards,
Ulf