Tate-ken V's Sei-ken

[Paul Steadman]

Hi All,

What type of fist do you guys use within you respective style/s for choku-zuki, do you utilise tate-ken or sei-ken. Also, what is the rationale or theory/prac outlines for the use of you respective styles use of tate-ken/sei-ken?

Thanks for your assistance.

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

[gmanry]

I teach my students to make contact with tateken and follow through to seiken. I think it is much better to think of them as a continuum rather than two individual techniques.

Shimabuku had some good points when he suggested that tateken was stronger than seiken. It is hard to argue against the anatomical evidence. However, seiken has some advantages that tateken does not.

It allows greater extension and follow through after impact, but is not useful at short ranges where tateken or an inverted fist (uppercut: uraken, kaeruken, sakasaken?) are obviously more appropriate.

I view seiken twist as a happy bonus if I can make it work, if I don't feel the opening I make impact with tateken or some other appropriate fist. I usually employ the seiken follow through when I know I can use it to disbalance my opponent and a little more penetration or weight shifting is needed. Tateken cuts off the natural shoulder and elbow extension that allow deeper penetration (unless you move in closer, which may not be appropriate at the time).

So, the short of it is, both and they are bookends on the same concept. :look:

[Jabonn]

I vote for Shoken. It is a much more devastating technique than the seiken or tateken. The seiken speads out the damage to the opponent, allowing the body to absorb the punch. Don't get me wrong I do use the seiken however a good Shoken in between ribs, to the heart, or the base of the skull on the neck, does the trick even better.


Jabonn Flurry
Uechi Ryu Kenyukai

[Victor]

Jaboon,

You are basically correct about the Shoken, however in conditions of extremis it is possible not to form the fist correctly.

I find the tate-ken, when delivered on a angle so the standing ridge of knuckles is the striking area, is almost as penetrating as the Shoken, and you have less chance of messing the fist formation up. People often don't realize you don't have to hit with it flat. In practice I almost never uset the flat strike anymore.

Another aspect of the tate-ken is the standing fist can be delivered effectively on different angles outside of vertical. This allows it to strike the appropriate area of the body more effectively too.

Of course in any case, experience, practice and skill are always determining factors.

[Jabonn]

I agree with you whole-heartly Victor. The flat fist is an easier punch to launch.

After four years in Kung Fu, I came to an Okinawan Karate School (job relocation); it took me a few months to unlearn the vertical punch reflexes, and use only the cork-screw punch. I find during times of sparring I can launch a vertical fist easier.

In kung fu we did not place the thumb on top of the hand, like the Isshin Tateken. In our dojo we have a student that studied Isshin Ryu for a number of years, I have asked him about the punch. His has stated that the arm, the wrist and the hand line up for the strongest possible technique. I have never used this punch in kumite or in tameshiwari.


Jabonn Flurry

[gmanry]

I want to revise my previous comments on tateken. I stated that it limits extension, which is, not always the case. I am not one for making ultimate definitions, as I find they quickly break down in the light of application.

As I was examining the techniques again, I noticed that tateken has better extension and follow through on a lead punch as long as you allow the shoulders to twist, using a narrower stance. This is in line with many styles theory.

I found that seiken is more effective for the gyaku tsuki when at a moderate range. One can always move in closer for tateken, which is very strong.

As usual, once you step away from theory, "it depends" becomes the rule of the day.

Victor about the ridge of the knuckles. Also, as Jaboon pointe out, seiken is a weak punch against the midsection if you do not have excellent polish on your technique.

I have a quetsion, is shoken the same as ippon ken (single knuckle fist)? Or is it more like a fist hitting with the middle knuckles (like what is sometimes called leopard fist in chinese boxing styles)? I am not familiar with this term, although I am familiar with the fist (we use it in our version of Gojushiho). In Budo Taijutsu such a fist is called shikan ken.

[Victor]

Hi Glen,

You write : Victor about the ridge of the knuckles. Also, as Jaboon pointe out, seiken is a weak punch against the midsection if you do not have excellent polish on your technique.

I assume you meant tate-ken not Seiken.

Well tate-ken is the bread and butter of Isshinryu. We also utilize both Okinawan punching methods, the "snap-back" where the punch hits (the fist tightens on the strike) and retracts more quickly, causing a back-shock, as well as simple impact strikes in situations with multiple striking.

Using the pure tate-ken against the abdomen with its snapback generates a great deal of force into that area. This is similar to the way Oshima uses the seikan in his Uchinadi tapes.

However the tate-ken delivered into the abdomen without the snap back if turned slightly towards 11 oclock will drive the opponent to bend forward lowering their jaw for a followup strike, and if turned slightly towards 1 o'clock will drive the force of the strike directly through them towards their opposite kidney which tends to make their back knee buckle. Both of which serve great tactical benefit.

Of course then there are the various pressure points such as on the ridge of the rib cage which also present other options.

No doubt practice, unending practice is required.

Similar case can be made for all striking techniques. Skill allows you to utilize them correctly for the targeting opportunities which present themselves.

[Jabonn]

Shoken-tou "small fist" or "small sword fist" is the same as Ippon-ken, utilizing the knuckle of the first finger. To condition this technique we bang the makiwara and have placed a canvas heavy bag on the floor of the dojo.

We use the Hira-ken or "level fist"or " hitting with the four knuckles of the hand. When making the fist you see that the knuckles line up almost level. I like this technique as well, mawashi tsuki or round house punch. This is great punch to the temple, the upper bridge of the mouth, the throat, or ribs.

In Hung Gar we used the Leapord Fist however it wasn't as compact as the Hira-ken. The fingers were not supported with the thumb it left the hand flatter and straighter. The hira-ken is supported by placing the thumb inside the palm and tighting the fingers.

Jabonn Flurry

[zach]

On a related subject, anyone have training methods for nukite...aside from the real brutal stuff, I do lots of fingertip push ups etc.... Got like, a specific bean or something to reccomend thrusting the fingers into? Don't personally want to go as far as rocks though...

[gmanry]

I have seen hira-ken or shikan ken done both ways, with the knuckles and more compact and more flat. In my experimentation I find that the choice of target would dictate the best one for me.

It is not a fist I use very often, however.

Zach, my suggestions for nukite are that you not engage in too much conditioning. Unless you are breaking boards with nukite, the actual amount of conditioning you need is not too much. Most logical targets are not that tough on the fingers.

I tend to use the cupped hand nukite, as I inherited my fathers slimmer fingers and this provides more support than the flatter straighter nukite often seen. I find I can deliver a fairly stout nukite by just working on a leather mitt taht is neither too hard nor too soft, firm would be the word.

Jaboon, thanks for the clarification. Every style has slightly different terminology, and I just wanted to be on the same page.

Victor, no I meant seiken. I find a lot of people don't really have good penetration with it to the midsection, too pushy and the knuckles are too flat, but I don't think that seiken is really the best middle section punch unless you drop your stance down. However, it is a great punch for chest level or higher (sternum shots, chin, temple, etc.). This is just from my experimentation though, and I wouldn't suggest it as a general rule. People who are more compact can probably use it down below the sternum better than I can. I usually don't turn a punch over to seiken if I am hitting below the sternum.

However, middle level punch is a great training tool for seiken because it requires a little more effort to keep the elbow down when the forearm is held parallel to the floor. People always complain about this, but it drives the concept home and helps them keep good alignment later in the heat of combat when one cannot be worrying about one's form.

[Jabonn]

Zach, we use a bag filled with shot. I can't remember what guage shot we used. On many martial art supply web pages you can find the canvas bags to fill with shot, pebbles, or whatever you like.

I use the finger tip bag and the markiwara to strengthen my nukite. I perfer the "koken" or crane beak technique (cupped hand), it allows the thumb to support the fingers making a tight fist and bring the ring finger and the middle finger almost level with each other. I think the stonger technique is compacting the fingers together, but I have seen nukite tamashiwara where the middle and ring fingers are spread apart making a small "v".

Zach you might if not already start using the kami or jars. The weighted jars will strengthen the grip. Your fingers and hands will become stronger. Along with slow finger tip conditioning from the makiwara and bean bag you should have a strong nukite.

Jabonn Flurry

[zach]

Thanks alot gmanry and jabonn, naw, dont wanna break boards w nukite, that would hurt and im a wuss. Currently ive been using my makiwara for this sort of thing, just dont feel like im developing anymore penetrating power.... I will try your suggestions.