Mental Re-Programing

[uke]

Good Morning all,
I have a bit of a dilemma. I have a very extensive Aikido background and due to geography, instructor preferences and other personal issues I have now enrolled in a Ju-Jitsu Dojo. The Instructor is great and the classes are informative but I'm having a heck of a time not resorting back to Aikido. I realize this may sound silly, however it seems to require great amounts of mental energy (especially in any kind of Rondori or freestyle situation) to remember to strike here or there before moving to a throw, lock or pressure point.

I know that I should probably just be more patient but I'm going on six months at this new Dojo and I'm just not getting it (I can kind of sense that my instructor is getting a bit frustrated, though he would never admit it). Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to leave my baggage at the door?


Thanks for your time,
Chris

[Rob]

Chris,

I had a terrible time when I first moved from Wado Ryu Karate to Jiu Jitsu... I could do the basics but as soon as I was under any pressure I resorted to what I knew..

At 6 months I'm not suprised that you're still having the problem I'd done Karate for 4 years and it took nearly 2 until I finally got it out of my system.

What I can reccomend is that you pick one aspect and concentrate on that.. for instance.. work on footwork specifically until it starts to feel natural.... working on your own without and uke just to get the movement 'grooved in' can help.

Also try and get a helpful uke who'll let you go through the motions over and over again at half speed.

Basically you need to wire these actions into your head so that they feel as natural as your Aikido does.

Good luck

[MarkF]

Why leave your baggage at the door? Bring it along so it will not be stolen.

Dave Lowry recently wrote something about people who had a base in judo, resorting to judo, in the end when all else failed (not verbatim).

I don't see a conflict. I see you adding to what you know. Since it surely is a gendai jujutsu you are doing, it is very close if not the same as judo, and the one thing I've heard from people who do aiki related arts, is that their judo comes out during randori, or attack drills, or.....in a real conflict.

So don't deny what you know, blend it with what you have all ready learned. Of course, if it isn't working because you are up against a brick wall with the instructor, a change may be in order.

Above all, remember. Judo (jujitsu) and aikido, under all the candy coating are basically the same thing. You need to practice your jujutsu in randori, but it depends on the type of randori you do. If it is always "on the run" type of resistance randori, use what you know when attacked, or become uke.

Don't be in such a hurry. It will come. In the meantime, doing the right thing as you know it is not wrong, it is perfectly correct.


Just relax and breathe, and use the center you probably have heard so much in your aiki training. It works in the ju-jutsu arts as well. Honest.:)

Mark

PS: If you are doing a koryu jujutsu, then congratulations to the teacher for instilling randori into the fray.

[MarkF]

BTW: Chris, please sign your posts with a full name. People like to know the person with whom they are "speaking." Unfortunately or not, it is a rule on e-budo. You can set it in your sig box.

Otherwise: Welcome to E-budo

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by MarkF


Above all, remember. Judo (jujitsu) and aikido, under all the candy coating are basically the same thing. You need to practice your jujutsu in randori, but it depends on the type of randori you do. If it is always "on the run" type of resistance randori, use what you know when attacked, or become uke.



Actually, aikido and judo techniques 'feel' very different.

From my experience, you're not going to get the different specifics correct at first. But you can work on learning the differences of 'feeling' of technique.

Another thing to consider is that, from what I remember (which may be wrong), Tomiki consider judo randori to be randori in close, and his style of aikido, randori from a distance.

How do you initiate contact with uke? This may have a big impact on how you apply technique. I was a high school wrestler, so I had to learn not to grab in aikido. The initial contact in aikido is a lot lighter.


What style of aikido did you practice, and what style of jujutsu are you now training in? That makes some difference, because I've found that Yoshinkan has a more jujutsu feel than Ki Aikido.

Peter

[Neil Hawkins]

Peter

I have found that my Jujutsu is very compatible with aikido and in fact has strong links with Yoseikan, which is the most Jujutsu like version of Aikido you can get.

I tend to agree with Mark, don't try and discard what you know, let it evolve and work for you. Much of the Jujutsu taught today is very linear and can benefit from some serios circular offbalancing.

If you are given a good attack, then there is no need for atemi, and a good irimi will allow you to get any throw or lock. the only time you need atemi to initiate a movement is when there is nothing for you to work with. Regardsless of wether you do Aikido or Jujutsu this will become apparent as you train and you will absorb it into your style.

The trick is to tighten all the movements you do in Aikido so that instead of holding at arms length during a technique, hold them against your hip or body, this makes the motion faster and more practical. if you start going for shionage and it works, there's nothing wrong with it. Get used to feeling when you have control and have them off-balance, the moment you feel that you are losing that control, change direction or strike.

Only practice will show you what is right for you, and I believe that it is unrealistic to expect you to forget all you know in such a short time. I think Bruce Lee said, absorb what is useful and discard the rest.

Regards

Neil

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
Peter

I have found that my Jujutsu is very compatible with aikido and in fact has strong links with Yoseikan, which is the most Jujutsu like version of Aikido you can get.


Regards

Neil

Yoshinkan? Where did I get that?

Anyway, I trained a lot in Aikikai, and our sensei really emphasized not using musculare strength. Very light and open techniques.

Training in judo felt like I could let loose a little and apply some muscle once in a while. I certainly felt that push come to shove I'd do something judo-like before I did something aikido.

A couple more similarities that may help (I'm using Aikikai terminology).

An irimi-nage entry isn't all that different from o-soto-gari - you can reap the leg depending on how well your kuzushi is working. Sode-tsuri-komi-goshi (or is that too judo specific?) has a very similar movement to a ryote-tori koshi-nage or kata-te-tori koshinage.

Kuzushi feels the same irregardless of the style. The differences come in how you finish a technique.

Peter

[Neil Hawkins]

Yoshinkan is much more Jujutsu-like than Aikikai, but Yoseikan is even more so.

I tend to believe that this maps the development of Aikido to a certain extent. Mochizuki Sensei left Ueshiba early (in the 1940's I think) to form Yoseikan. At that time Aikido was still in it's infancy and a lot closer to Jujutsu. Saito left later (60's?), and there was a softer approach, but still practical. The people that stayed with Ueshiba the longest were the Aikikai, their Aikido is closer to the ideal of Ueshiba but further from the practicality of combat.

I think many Jujutsu styles (especially modern eclectic ones) have gone too far in the search for practicality and have little idea about real un-balancing. This is whena good understanding of the principles are an advantage, all throws and locks are performed better when the opponent is off-balance. The best Judoka threw effortlessly because they had they knew this and could achieve it. Many modern styles of judo/jujutsu miss this and still rely on strength and speed.

But regardless, there is going to be some adaptation required by Chris, but I still believe that it is better to adjust than to start from scratch. If you fall back on Aikido and it works for you, then there's no problem. If you fall back on it and it doesn't work in randori then you need to seriously look at what your doing and why.

As I said before, feel the attack, if atemi isn't required, why do it? Ask why they do atemi at that point. Is it to stop the arm from withdrawing? Is it to cause the attacker to pause long enough to apply the technique? Is it a distraction? Is it to off-balance? Maybe they just do it because that's the way they were taught and don't know the reason. A good instructor will be able to explain and tell you that it may not always be necessary to strike, other times all you need is the strike.

Jujutsu should by nature be flexible.

Regards

Neil

[rossl42]

G'day Neil

According to my sources Mochizuki established his Yoseikan dojo in 1931. He continued to meet with and learn from Ueshiba O'sensei until the latter's death.

p.s. I will be in Port Hedland a few times between now and the end of the year. Do you ever venture that far south nowadays?
Also, I have a new personal e-mail address. Have tried to send to yours without success.