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MarkF
30th June 2000, 07:15
HI everyone,
I have been having a bit of problem with morote-gari, or I should say, I have a problem finding the right timing for this throw. Do any of you have any suggestions on how to pull it off? Does anyone think this throw can be done as a counter off seoi-nage, or as a failed shoulder throw, and into this hand and shoulder (te waza) throw? Thanks a lot. I have some problems in explaining this one.

gavinslater
30th June 2000, 13:57
Hi Mark,

We do that as a changing throw from the shoulder throw as well but I have never ever used it (6th throw from the shoulder throw series). But here is a description of it. From a right side grip i.e. right hand on their lapel go into a RHS shoulder throw, they resist backwards so go with it. Grab their right knee with your left arm going backwards. Take your hips out and step behind them, from here it is important to keep hold their left leg at the knee with your left arm. This prevents them from moving back too fast. Grab behind there knees, lift them with your hips then throw them backwards, get side control, then go from there...

Variations.

1. Instead of stepping behind with your left leg and posting, swing it in a sweeping motion forward (after you have got around the back of them), while moving your left arm backwards, take them backwards in a scissor motion.

2. Instead of grabbing the left leg with the left arm just grab one leg with both arms. Keep the weight down on it, straighten their leg then throw your hips forward. They hit the ground with their leg stright in the air with all of your weight bearing down on it. And with a twist on impact it can damage their hip.

Changing.

If you got behind them but you find your left arm at the back, drop it into the back of their right knee while grabbing their right ankle with your right hand. Start to move in front of them, then drop onto your right knee and perform a rolling side sac. throw. This also works if they drop there base forward.

But it is hard to get in randori, you really need to have them at your side, say from a really bad kubi nage throw where you put your arm in front. Or from a side head lock type of situation. I find the most important thing is grabbing their knee to stop them going away from you.

I hope this is of some use.

Gavin.

Osoto2000
30th June 2000, 20:39
Hi Gavin,
Forgive me if I am being stupid but I have read and re-read your discriptions and I cannot get Morote-gari from them. Surely if you step behind them and throw them with your hips and your hands on the back of their knees right hand across the front of the body you are throwing with Sukui-nage? Also your first variation sounds very much like a cross grip Tani-otoshi? From how I understood your discriptions you are throwing them to your rear, is that correct??

What I understand to be Morote-gari is listed not listed in the original Gokyo under Te-waza but in fact is classified as Shimmeisho no waza.
The best way to discribe this throw is very much like a Rugby football tackle.

Take a deep step with your right leg between your opponent's legs. Hit hard with your shoulder into their Suigetsu, at the same time put your arms around their legs, just above their knees. Scoop their legs towards you, throwing them to the ground with a combination of the shoulder driving and the hands lifting.

Mark, I cannot help you with this Morote-gari being used as a counter or as a failed shoulder throw, as I have only ever seen it done as a suprize attack to someone who is towering over you and has not yet got a grip. I also cannot see any opening for it in the way you descibe. I can however see how Sukui-nage could be used in both of these circumstances.
Please help me out here, am I going nuts or what???

MarkF
1st July 2000, 09:56
A student buys a new book, and this is what you get. An answer was promised but time is not important so this is good stuff from you, guys.

From what I can gather, neither one of you is wrong, but even the variations seem to have a name. Ray, I get sukuinage from Gavin's descriptions, and yours is geared toward the recent descriptions I have heard. So far, the concensus is that it is a te waza, but still a shoulder throw, so from the right side, the right shoulder is hitting the chest of uke, and continues to that side? Also, I have been told that this is usually done, if ever, when the best grip you can get is the wrists, or if you have grasped the wrists. To me, it seems a basic tackle, with kuzushi being accomplished from grasping the legs and hitting with the shoulder, not to the rear but more to the side? From my viewpoint, most judoka "tower" over me, as I am not much above five feet (5'3"). I have attempted this in shiai, but my body language, or conditioned reflex seems to say "grasp uke's right leg, and sweep the left." That is what it tells me, but it doesn't answer all the time. Also, I didn't really mean as a counter, just a continuation back as a rear throw, so surprise fits. If you look in "the book," it says one thing, but if you go to "the site" it shows another. This is one confused nage:)
Any other suggestions would be more than appreciated.

gavinslater
1st July 2000, 20:07
Hi,

It is just a variation on a technique we use, we do the same technique 'double leg scoop' as a change at different stage in the attack i.e the shoulder throw. In the following order;

1. You come in from a right grip shoulder throw if you couldn't get into a good throwing position pivot your right leg back out and drop your right hand down for his back of his knee while controlling him your left try and bump him off the ground and pull his legs. If your going to come through his legs control him so you can start to pass his guard, or just pull his legs to the side (this is all after your have broken his balance) and get side control. So to do it from the shoulder throw just come back out quick then take his balance back with him.

2. You got further through then do the first technique.

3. Do it as a takedown technique, throw a high punch to get their head going back then come in low from here it can be a leg scoop (or an outer leg hook).

Then we do a different scoop throw. So it could be a difference in the translation as we have an extra curriculum then the kodokan judo book/curriculum for our ju jutsu. The kawaishi system is based on judo but it also has stuff in there from his ju jutsu. We have the double leg scoop, and the scoop throw (which comes from the hand throw series). Or it could even be my terrible japanese language skills.

Gavin.

efb8th
12th July 2000, 00:21
Hi Mark!

I like to try Morote Gari when uke gives me a stiff-arm or two, trying to keep me at distance. I move my arms as though doing right and left downward elbow strikes (open palms toward my face, forearms vertical, I circle my elbows up, over and inside the arms and down, to break the grips.) Then with his grip(s) to the outside, I gently butt, uh ram, uh PLACE my rt. shoulder in uke's sternum (at about the xiphoid process) [Blasted Greek spelling!] as I step rt. deep between his legs and reach outside his knees, and carefully avoiding the very sensitive nerve bundles located behind his knees, I pull said knees up to obi level while standing up from my forward lean. This causes the knees to pop out from under uke's center of balance along a path that is, for him about 20 degrees above the horizontal. It makes for a very satisfying thump, if you get the timing right.

Make sense?

MarkF
12th July 2000, 10:56
I agree that it must be done quickly, and before I had ever heard it was a nage waza, I would duck under the grip (as this was sometimes my only advantage) and would lift and RAM my shoulder into the chest completing nage with a head butt as well. Now before you go thinking this not a fair advantage, at my height, some people only have abdomens. The head butt is to the upper chest, as my shoulder is generally at the abdomen, but I complete it as a shoulder throw, at least this is my direction. This is one which strength is a very good advantage to have, but if done correctly, all the lifting is done with the hips, and kuzushi is with the hands and shoulder. I have only tried this once or twice, but the first time it must have worked because I wouldn't have tried a second time.:D

BTW: Thank you Gavin, for your imput. I find Kodokan judo to be confusing, and I do try to leave it at home. The jujutsu imput has made its entrance as all your variations are now distinct throws, so I know what you mean.

Ed: You can avoid all you want, bu when I was fighting, I used everything permitted and then some. Seems you have a good working knowledge of physiology, and I would not be so careful in avoiding nerve bundles. It is your intent which makes it wrong or right. In your description, I would utilize what is there. I learned some kyusho in my first classes, even before ukemi. I was only twelve, but I still haven't forgotten, and that was in '63.

[Edited by MarkF on 07-12-2000 at 05:06 AM]

efb8th
12th July 2000, 13:49
Good morning Mark!

I made a point of avoiding the nerve bundles behind the knees in the same way I always make a point of avoiding the shoulder butt. Usually it sounds something like this: "Ok, guys. now when I say avoid the shoulder butt, I'm talking about this very effective "HAWAIIAN SHOULDER BUTT" which you should NEVER, EVER USE 'cause it's against the rules. Yes Fred, I can wait until you get your notebook." Same like foe nerve bumdles in your cheek, when the tongue is firmly planted there.

MarkF
13th July 2000, 06:49
Hey Ed,
I knew the location of your tongue, but if I am teaching a few students on the advantages of shiai, I may do the same thing. It ain't against the rules unless the other guy is doing it. Someone said recently on another message board: "judoka have a twinkle in the eye and a smile on the face when they perceive a jujutsu club as being basically an "NHB" as compared to h/her judo dojo. That is, of course when they realize that hairpulling, eye gouging and kuzushi by atemi is just fine." (That was from memory so it may not be exactly what he said but the tone was the same). Another much older saying is "One must learn the rules before one can break them." I'm sure he wasn't speaking of martial arts (in fact it was speaking of learning the rules of music before you improvise). There are many sayings out there which approve of "cheating" but hey, it is a fight. :rolleyes:

That said, let me also say I am a certified shimban and I will always call it if I see it, but that doesn't mean I don't take my time in getting to the other side to observe the breaking (bones would be a little much) before I call it. When I began to compete (1964), there were warnings and hansokumake. Let's just say this happened rarely. There was a thread some time ago in which "diry tricks" were discussed. You would be surprised (I was) in the number of folks who came forward in that discussion. I hope some of the old threads are recovered and added back.;)

[Edited by MarkF on 07-13-2000 at 01:22 AM]