Grapplin' type schtuff

[zach]

Hey, what do you guys think about grappling in Karate? Is this a modern conception or has some grappling always existed in Okinawan karate styles? I have always thought some grappling existed in okinawan MAs, but then again, could be modern interpretation. Although (imo) some kata techniques are hard to rationalize as anything BUT chin-na type application. What have famous Okinawan masters said about this?

[yamatodamashii]

When I trained under Shimabukuro Eizo, we were taught grappling of movements in the kata. Not *ground* grappling, but certainly a number of joint-locks and projections.

[gmanry]

I was always taught that throwing and locking and disbalancing were important concepts in kata. It is much easier to hit someone when you have them off balance or under control.

Off balancing technique is crucial to winning against multiple opponents.

Taikyoku kata (a more modern one to be sure) lends itself to many, many throws, some of which can be very damaging to those who cannot take a fall Seionage, osoto garuma, osoto garai (not obvious), kosoto gari, taiotoshi (most obvious at the big 270 degree turn), even a kaiten nage variation can be gained from taikyoku if you expand the body dynamics beyond the basic form. If you add gripping and use of fingers than a whole slew of pain compliance grappling can be found.

All the Pinans or Heians have many grabbing, twisting, and disbalancing applications. Our version of Basai, which is unlike any other I have seen to date (except for Kokondo people probably), has some particularly nasty grappling and anti-grappling skills in it.

Just play with the basic motions, have someone grab you and see where the movement takes the opponents balance. Also, remember that although a kata may start "to the left" the opponent can be coming from the front or back and not to the obvious left side (try this with Pinan sandan or godan).

Also, you can get really intricate with some of the applications and make something that has all sorts of hidden strikes, but the truth is that it is very hard to really pull those off in real combat, with real clothes on, and an uke who is really fighting. They are not a waste of time, but the more basic applications are what will save your butt.

Just my .02.

[zach]

Originally posted by gmanry
I was always taught that throwing and locking and disbalancing were important concepts in kata. It is much easier to hit someone when you have them off balance or under control.

Off balancing technique is crucial to winning against multiple opponents.

Taikyoku kata (a more modern one to be sure) lends itself to many, many throws, some of which can be very damaging to those who cannot take a fall Seionage, osoto garuma, osoto garai (not obvious), kosoto gari, taiotoshi (most obvious at the big 270 degree turn), even a kaiten nage variation can be gained from taikyoku if you expand the body dynamics beyond the basic form. If you add gripping and use of fingers than a whole slew of pain compliance grappling can be found.

All the Pinans or Heians have many grabbing, twisting, and disbalancing applications. Our version of Basai, which is unlike any other I have seen to date (except for Kokondo people probably), has some particularly nasty grappling and anti-grappling skills in it.

Just play with the basic motions, have someone grab you and see where the movement takes the opponents balance. Also, remember that although a kata may start "to the left" the opponent can be coming from the front or back and not to the obvious left side (try this with Pinan sandan or godan).

Also, you can get really intricate with some of the applications and make something that has all sorts of hidden strikes, but the truth is that it is very hard to really pull those off in real combat, with real clothes on, and an uke who is really fighting. They are not a waste of time, but the more basic applications are what will save your butt.

Just my .02.

Yeah I agree about the basics, we are taught basic throwing stuff as regards taikyoko as well, sometimes people do tend to get a bit too intricate, wehrein it seems one forgets what one is even defending against.

[kusanku]

Funakoshi said and gave examples, that grappling techniques are in the kata, and called them torite.

So did Mabuni and Motobu, and all the Okinawan masters taught these.

The Chinese did too, as Chin na.

So how is it a modern conception only?

Besides, as you say, when someone puts both wrists together and rotates them like a key, in kata, for instance, how could that be a strike or anything but a lock?

And you step two hundred seventy degrees and throw a 'down block'at whom, some one you couldn't even see, what could this be if not a throw?

Modern conception is that the only things in kata were strikes, kicks and blocks.

What's happening today is people are going back to the original ways.'Course, a lot of them claim to be one of the only few people on earth to know them.But you look in the karate-do kyohan,and earlier books by Funakoshi and others, by golly, there they are, throwing and locking technique.Also kyusho ,vital points.

What's the big deal?

[zach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kusanku
Funakoshi said and gave examples, that grappling techniques are in the kata, and called them torite.
So did Mabuni and Motobu, and all the Okinawan masters taught these.
he Chinese did too, as Chin na.
So how is it a modern conception only?


Kind thought so, reason I bring it up is I don't have the wide range of experience that many of you do, and ive seen a few people sort of
'getting bitchy' about "too much" of this sort of thing being taught, or it being the 'wrong' kind of grappling. But I guess that kind of thing comes with the territory.

Besides, as you say, when someone puts both wrists together and rotates them like a key, in kata, for instance, how could that be a strike or anything but a lock?

And you step two hundred seventy degrees and throw a 'down block'at whom, some one you couldn't even see, what could this be if not a throw?


Yeah, particularly w/ taikyko i think its funny when people say 'its just a block', so your'e gonna spin around just to block ? or when you see an x block and people say its just blocking a kick, pretty inefficient way of just blocking a kick.


Modern conception is that the only things in kata were strikes, kicks and blocks.

What's happening today is people are going back to the original ways.'Course, a lot of them claim to be one of the only few people on earth to know them.But you look in the karate-do kyohan,and earlier books by Funakoshi and others, by golly, there they are, throwing and locking technique.Also kyusho ,vital points.

Yeah, I have Karate Do Kyohan, and it seems only natural that an art with any martial effectiveness would have to incorporate some of these movements. I fully agree with you here, I was just
wondering what the consensus was, if indeed there is a consensus.

what's the big deal?

nothing really, was just curious what the more experienced thought about it specifically.

thanks.

[Ken Allgeier]

If you look at Gichin Funakoshi book " Tode Jutsu" ( the 2ed book writen by Funakoshi Sensei) you will find some photos of , grapplin and throws.A number of the classical Shuri-Te,Tomari-Te and Naha-Te kata contain grapplin and throwing waza.Look at the Goju Ryu kata ' Seipai',which contains a arm lock and the defense against the same arm lock, plus a defense from a front kick, which throws the opponet to the ground.


It seems that the, advent of the University Karate system in Japan and it focus on competition, that grappling and throws ( except legs sweeps) have been left in the background or as a after thought.I just started last year, lerning the older methods of the 'Nachanchi' kata from a student of Oyata Sensei, and I am vary, vary impressed by the grappling application, more than the Aikido I learned while in college.Given the fact the ' Nachanchi' is okinawan ( ok maybe Chinese ? ) which shows a history of grapplin from Okinawa, and not just punch- kick-block.









ken allgeier

[zach]

It seems that the, advent of the University Karate system in Japan and it focus on competition, that grappling and throws ( except legs sweeps) have been left in the background or as a after thought.I just started last year, lerning the older methods of the 'Nachanchi' kata from a student of Oyata Sensei, and I am vary, vary impressed by the grappling application, more than the Aikido I learned while in college.Given the fact the ' Nachanchi' is okinawan ( ok maybe Chinese ? ) which shows a history of grapplin from Okinawa, and not just punch- kick-block.


I probably shouldnt have asked such a rhetorical question, I pretty much already have my answer, was wondering more historical stuff........anyhow, since you mention tode jutsu...I really would like to get it myself, do you know where it can be purchased online by chance?

[kusanku]

Hey guys-:D

Friend of mine sent some of the fellas this url-

Just a little history lesson for you younger folks-

Article and Photo below the article when you scroll down- don't wanna miss either one-

Picture's worth a thousand words.

http://geocities.com/vandeelen/Pukulan/oyata.htm

Check the new student gettin' Torqued.

Who's your Pal, hah?

Check it out.

[kusanku]

Some people been posting that kata bunkai aren't effective in real usage.

Maybe theirs aren't.

What can I say?

Some even say I'll punch, that'll work.

It might or it might not.

Punch might get stopped and might get caught and locked too.

Or something else might happen.

Seminars for kata apps often only show the basic purposes of things, and sometimes only to give an idea of the usefulness of kata.

That's about all I am going to say at this time.

Others can say more if they wish to, and if they don't , neither do I.

[zach]

Originally posted by kusanku
Some people been posting that kata bunkai aren't effective in real usage.

Maybe theirs aren't.



Best bunkai ive learned comes from my dad, he has a real simple method of teaching it, he does it on me, i ask, he does it, I hurt, I understand, doesnt kill me or anything but I always get the point.