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MarkF
26th May 2001, 10:11
This is the text of the letter. It is the answer to a question submitted to him which has been posted on the USMAA's website. It may be viewed at http://www.mararts.org/Letter%20from%20O'Sensei.htm



Dear Earl,


Thanks for your letter. The answer to your question, on why members of Karl Geis' organization or the USMA cannot participate in USJA, USJI, and USJF tournaments unless they join one of those organizations, is very simple indeed. Politics.

That is the reason Judo is so far behind all the other Martial Arts in participation, tournaments, and popularity. In just a few years, JuJitsu tournaments have outgrown Judo tournaments all over the country because they are open.

The heart of the matter is that the Judo politicians care more about keeping people out of Judo than they do in spreading Judo. The spirit of Judo that we knew so well in years past, helping one another learn, spreading Judo, working with everyone, competing with anyone and everyone, is dead.

This is also why American Judo is 23rd in the world in a tie with Madagascar. The politicians just don't care.

But the situation can and will change. The Amateur Sports Act of 1978 makes it a violation of the law for any Olympic governing body, in this case the USJI, to refuse membership to any organization which conducts a national program in the sport concerned. In due course the USMA will apply for USJI membership, and then the closed tournament will be a thing of the past.

We call upon everyone to support the USMA with memberships to make that happen soon.

You are always in my heart.

O-Sensei

-----Original Message-----
From: EARL DELVALLE [mailto:budobug@msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:55 PM
To: psp83@earthlink.net
Subject: question


Just a brief question for you. I know that you left the U.S.J.A. for reasons unknown. I am currently a member of your association as well as Karl Geis' association. The two most knowlegeable Judo instructors in the U.S.. Yet the U.S.J.A., whom both you and Karl were members of, will not recognize you or your associations. That is unbeleivable. You were their president. I cannot participate in any Judo tournament or my students unless I have a U.S.J.A. printed certificate. Can you please help me understand this? I have certificates from you and Karl Geis. Is there any thing I can do? Or will politics prevail. Have you considered getting the U.S.M.A chartered for judo like the Usja and Usjf are? I hope that some one can make sense of this. Thank you for taking your time out to her this. I know that you are swamped. Please let me know if you can help me or direct me. Thank You, God bless...Earl DelValle.




My question concerning this problem: Why not join the USJF, USJA, and/or the USJI? Mr. Porter has a long history with the USJA, beginning with the Lawsuit against the US Black Belt Federation (now the USJF) to breakup, what he said was a "stranglehold" on judo in the US (This was in the 1960s).

I think this lawsuit is frivilous, as the rule for membership is mainly for the insurance and to make sure the student who enters is sufficiently knowledgable in judo at the grade in which he enters a contest. When one joins one the three US judo groups, they may choose (it is a rule with all three) to join either of the other two without charge as Associate Membership. Certainly, a man known as O-sensei, and his background before all that is up to par. I've played randori with the gentleman and his judo knowledge is sufficient to teach people good randori for entering shiai. There is also another route, and this would be to hold its own tournments, an invitational to anyone with credentials.

By belonging to the USMA in no way blocks anyone who wishes to join (the others) to do so.

As to O-sensei's problems with his bansihment from the USJA, only he and the USJA know as no legal action was taken.

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
27th May 2001, 04:00
Mark,

This is just more of "O-Sense" Porter's nonsense. It is well known in the US Judo community why he left the USJA.

Interestingly, something about the USMA application came up at the last USJI meeting. Basically, USMA is not a JUDO organization, it's an organiation of many martial arts/ways. So from what I understood, also, USMA has NOT EVEN APPLIED formerly to USJI for membership as a Group C or B member.

IMO, Porter is just trying to build up membership in his latest organization by playing the old "it's not fair, we are being discriminated against etc. blah blah blah card he has used in the past. It's really sad that he has not changed his ways, despite all the O-Sensei and christian love stuff he spouts these days.

"You are always in my heart",

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
27th May 2001, 04:05
Earl wrote:"Just a brief question for you. I know that you left the U.S.J.A. for reasons unknown. "

Well, most everybody else in the USA Judo world knows. I wonder why Mr. Porter did not enlighten his correspondent as to why he "left" USJA. Karl Geis knows. Perhaps he should inform his student as to what happened ?

I have to give it to you Mark, you can really post some provocative stuff (to me, at least !)

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

dakotajudo
27th May 2001, 14:21
If I remember correctly, one point raised on JUDO-L is that only five national level USJI tournaments are closed to non-USJI members. Most tournaments only required a valid membership in either JI, JA or JF. This, as stated above, seems to be mostly for insurance purposes.

My understanding is that Phil Porter was a very influential figure in the judo and MA community in the past, but it seems that he's spent the last decade screwing up his legacy. It's too bad, but he'll probably be remember for the bad budo of the last few years.

As far as jujutsu, the UFC/Gracie fad of the past few years has done more to increase jujutsu tournaments participation than anything happening in judo. Judo's just too 'old-school' for some people, BJJ is much sexier.

But there are still more judo tournaments in my area. Of course, the upper midwest is just backwards, I guess.


Peter

dakotajudo
27th May 2001, 14:28
Originally posted by MarkF


When one joins one the three US judo groups, they may choose (it is a rule with all three) to join either of the other two without charge as Associate Membership.

Mark

IIRC, the USJA currently does not have associate membership plan with JI or JF.

I don't think this was a policy introduced by the current USJA leadership, I think it was implemented by a previous (ie. Phil Porter) administration. Politics.

The current USJA president seems pretty active promoting cooperation between the national orgs, and has been pretty candid about Phil Porter's legacy within the JA.




Peter

MarkF
28th May 2001, 09:22
http://www.usjf.com/membershipform.html

Hi, Peter,
Well, you are correct concerning the USJA not continuing the practice of belonging as an associate, or as the first membership with the USJA and associate membership with either the USJF or USJI. It did have an associate membership option at least up until this year, or late last year.

The USJF makes this available, but is no longer mandatory, and it is the same with the USJI, going by all three membership packets, the USJF example above shows the "optional" plan associate membership, but does not now show the USJA as an alternative or requirement of associate membership.

Life member or not, some don't get the news until it becomes public as this, apparently, is the practice.:cry:

Here is the online form for the USJA. They have dropped, it appears, any requirement, associate or otherwise, with the USJF or USJI.

http://www.csprings.com/usja/Annual.htm

This is the individual membership annual form
*****

Things become as difficult to keep up with, as time marches by.

Of course, all necessary fees must be paid and on time. Sometimes, it seems to be leveling off the playing field.
****

I won't burden you with the USJI forms, as it is essentially the same as the USJF if not identical.

Mark

MarkF
28th May 2001, 09:38
Originally posted by dakotajudo
My understanding is that Phil Porter was a very influential figure in the judo and MA community in the past, but it seems that he's spent the last decade screwing up his legacy. It's too bad, but he'll probably be remember for the bad budo of the last few years.



Just a side note on Porter. Donn Draeger commented on Phil's interest in judo, or rather, his lack of it. He basically thought it sad that he was only interested in the money "his organization" brought in.

[My assumption is that he was speaking either of the US Armed Forces Judo Association or the USJA. I'm not sure which of his books it appeared, or other publication, but he definitely made a similar, if not a much more eloquent, comment on Porter along the same lines].

It seems Mr. Porter has been screwing up his legacy, nor does it bother him it seems, for quite some time. One complaint while with the USJA that he was selling recognition/ranks in other martial arts. According to the USJA, they are still recognizing other MA than judo, but I'm sure this is a separate item and has nothing to do with the judo program.

Mark

dakotajudo
28th May 2001, 12:54
Originally posted by MarkF
http://www.usjf.com/membershipform.html

Hi, Peter,
Well, you are correct concerning the USJA not continuing the practice of belonging as an associate, or as the first membership with the USJA and associate membership with either the USJF or USJI. It did have an associate membership option at least up until this year, or late last year.



I don't remember having the associate membership option when I rejoined JA in '97. I was involved in JA in the early 90's, but wasn't really paying attention to that kind of thing then, so can't really say, but there is no mention of associate membership listed in my student handbook from that era.

I've been wondering about the non-judo USJA ranks lately. It seems contradictory to what the current administrations goals. The problem now is that there are a lot of people who hold rank in both judo and jujutsu, which seems kind of redundant, since judo is historically jujutsu, and the basic judo curriculum is filled with jujutsu.

For example, the club I'm running was originally called "Dakota Judo and Jujutsu". The person who named the club was a JA 3rd dan, and said he had been given jujutsu dan rank because of the techniques he'd picked up over the years. His rank was through JA, not in any Japanese jujutsu ryu. So what makes that different than judo?



I tend to be leery of a generic "jujutsu" rank. It seems judo as currently practiced has dropped a lot the original jujutsu. And that may be part of Porter's legacy, since he was the original author of JA's test requirements, which have emphasized sport judo at the expense of classical judo.

Peter

dakotajudo
28th May 2001, 13:00
Originally posted by MarkF
http://www.usjf.com/membershipform.html

Hi, Peter,
Well, you are correct concerning the USJA not continuing the practice of belonging as an associate, or as the first membership with the USJA and associate membership with either the USJF or USJI. It did have an associate membership option at least up until this year, or late last year.



I don't remember having the associate membership option when I rejoined JA in '97. I was involved in JA in the early 90's, but wasn't really paying attention to that kind of thing then, so can't really say, but there is no mention of associate membership listed in my student handbook from that era.

I've been wondering about the non-judo USJA ranks lately. It seems contradictory to what the current administrations goals. The problem now is that there are a lot of people who hold rank in both judo and jujutsu, which seems kind of redundant, since judo is historically jujutsu, and the basic judo curriculum is filled with jujutsu.

For example, the club I'm running was originally called "Dakota Judo and Jujutsu". The person who named the club was a JA 3rd dan, and said he had been given jujutsu dan rank because of the techniques he'd picked up over the years. His rank was through JA, not in any Japanese jujutsu ryu. So what makes that different than judo?



I tend to be leery of a generic "jujutsu" rank. It seems judo as currently practiced has dropped a lot the original jujutsu. And that may be part of Porter's legacy, since he was the original author of JA's test requirements, which have emphasized sport judo at the expense of classical judo.

Peter

William F. Kincaid
28th May 2001, 14:29
I joined the USJA quite late in My Judo studies, and soon came upon my biggest and most pressing problem with the USJA.....the only time I hear from them is when they want money I was giong to register my Shodan rank through them, but when I got the forms in the mail with a ton of solication mail wanting money for this and that I just sidelined the application.

Also it seems to me that the 14 Judoka dojo to be a "offical" USJA "Club" is very Steep for my area if all of my Judoka were members in god standing we still would have only about 10 members. Also the fact that promotion is centered around tournaments doe put me off as well. While I respect Judo as a sport as well as I know that the USJA is a sport organization. For me and my Judoka being about 3 hours from the closest tournament and that most of us have 2 or 3 jobs in the community that require if not demand our presence, so it makes it almost impossible for us to attend tournaments.

With the above problems I decided to halt any attempt to become an "official" USJA "club" and procede independent while this sucks from my personal promotion area as well as acceptance for the rank I grant to others. I do sleep better at night knowing that my Students, friends, and family have not been put off by an organization that the only time they hear from them is for more money.

dakotajudo
28th May 2001, 16:11
Originally posted by William F. Kincaid
I joined the USJA quite late in My Judo studies, and soon came upon my biggest and most pressing problem with the USJA.....the only time I hear from them is when they want money I was giong to register my Shodan rank through them, but when I got the forms in the mail with a ton of solication mail wanting money for this and that I just sidelined the application.

...

With the above problems I decided to halt any attempt to become an "official" USJA "club" and procede independent while this sucks from my personal promotion area as well as acceptance for the rank I grant to others. I do sleep better at night knowing that my Students, friends, and family have not been put off by an organization that the only time they hear from them is for more money.

How long ago has this been?

A lot of the money issues are part of the Phil Porter legacy. There is still a rather large debt that was created by Porter.


The current USJA administrations is working harder to be a grass-roots org, to better suit the smaller clubs.

I got involved in a discussion on USJA promotions for many of the same reasons you list. I'm also isolated - the nearest regulat judo club is 150 miles, and most tournaments are 3-4 hours away. The current JA seems to be willing to listen.

Not to make this a USJA discussion, but part of the problems in JA were created by Porter, and may happen to the USMAA.


Peter

William F. Kincaid
28th May 2001, 16:28
no doubt it was and no doubt it will

My main reason for not rejoining and making my dojo a USJA "Club"(boy I dislike that word just as much as I do "coach" in Judo.lol). Is that the people in my Judo Dojo more than just sport, and while USJA has that in place it is still kinda weak at this time. We have been looking at the Kano Society as a possible alternative but at this time none has been decided.

yeah Phil did alot whether good or bad........well mostly bad it is hard to say I know he did leave the USJA in dire straits and will prob. do the same to the USMA the rank thing over there is already way out of reason so it will be interesting to see how much longer it before it faulters

MarkF
29th May 2001, 09:18
My statements on associate memberships among the three organizations were made according to periodic visits to their websites, so if the USJA doesn't have the "required associate" thing anymore, and didn't in 1997 it occured sometime between those dates. Life members, If I'm not mistaken, were never required to do so unless they wanted to participate in their tournaments.

The only time I remember any personal communication was one to check on a teacher back east who claimed a high dan status and that he was a member of all three organizations. A student was moving out that way and wanted to know something of his background. On calling the USJF, they said they hadn't heard from him since around 1991, but that he received shodan "sometime in the seventies, and didn't know about any other rank. The USJI just grumbled something about never hearing of him, but the USJA had indeed "given" him rokudan.

Isn't politics grand?

Mark

William F. Kincaid
29th May 2001, 14:04
Politics almost dealt a death blow to Judo in the past. hopefully we will learn our lesson soon because i really don't think Judo could survive another one right now

Ben Reinhardt
29th May 2001, 14:50
Originally posted by dakotajudo



Not to make this a USJA discussion, but part of the problems in JA were created by Porter, and may happen to the USMAA.


Peter

USMAA is what Porter was making of the JA when he got booted out (oops, left voluntarily).

Give the JA a try again. They have cleaned house for the most part, and have a new Board of Directors.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
29th May 2001, 14:57
Originally posted by MarkF
My statements on associate memberships among the three organizations were made according to periodic visits to their websites, so if the USJA doesn't have the "required associate" thing anymore, and didn't in 1997 it occured sometime between those dates. Life members, If I'm not mistaken, were never required to do so unless they wanted to participate in their tournaments.

Ben R: Mark, I don't know that there was ever a requirement of associate membership in JI for JA or JF. Not since 1982, when I first got involved, at least. A lot of discussion is ongoing now to have an arrangement with JA and JI the same as JF and JI have now. This sort of arrangement would go a long ways towards unifying Judo in this country. Mr. Bregman, the new JA President, is working very hard to heal the wounds of the past. He is in direct discussions with Mr. Tripp, the President of USJI, and Mr. Saito, President of USJF.

The only time I remember any personal communication was one to check on a teacher back east who claimed a high dan status and that he was a member of all three organizations. A student was moving out that way and wanted to know something of his background. On calling the USJF, they said they hadn't heard from him since around 1991, but that he received shodan "sometime in the seventies, and didn't know about any other rank. The USJI just grumbled something about never hearing of him, but the USJA had indeed "given" him rokudan.

Isn't politics grand?


Ben R: Why not send the student to the aformentioned persons web site and have him check it out, and then e-mail said person, who is quite prompt to answer e-mails, and would no doubt provide any verification desired ?

Regards,
Ben Reinhardt


Mark

MarkF
30th May 2001, 15:11
Well, it was meant as an example, but I have contacted him and asked if he has or had updated. I'm certainly not going to take the word of the organizations, especially when all three answeres differed with differing explanations, but the response I received was that said instructor had not updated in quite a while, but that his rank was from the USJA.

There was no comment on the USJF's not having heard from him in quite a while.

Oh, and the student is all ready with the instructor and has been for nearly a year. This was at the same time in which application to all three memberships online required an associate membership with any of the two others.

This has changed now to the USJA not having the option, the USJF having the option, but not to include the USJA, but suggesting associate or "back up" membership with the USJF, or USJI if applying through the USJI, a suggestion to associate membership (optional).
*****

My thoughts continue to be what the applications looked like which my teacher filled out to enter me in shiai.

Mark



This was online totally, and this could be just as permanent as the last time (2000).

How does the saying go concerning too many hands stirring the pot?

The local USJF president out here had no idea any of this was going on.

Ben Reinhardt
30th May 2001, 15:49
MarkF wrote:Oh, and the student is all ready with the instructor and has been for nearly a year. This was at the same time in which application to all three memberships online required an associate membership with any of the two others"

Mark, I'm really confused now. Like I said, I have no recollection of EVER having to join JI as if one joins JA or JF. I really don't know where you got this information. Maybe you misread the online forms ? Joint membership with JF is a fairly recent thing, and is optional.

In all the discussions I've been in on Judo-L and the USA Judo BOD discussion group, it's been clear that there was never any "joint membership" requirement.

When the AAU was the NGB, one had to be a member of JF and the AAU to compete. Those were separate memberships. Is tha what you are thinking about ?

Seriously,

Ben Reinhardt

dakotajudo
30th May 2001, 23:58
I agree with Ben on this. I think JF and JI have historically allowed (but not required) associate membership, but to my knowledge JA has never had that option.

I'm not sure of the history, but I think there was some bad blood between the established judo org (AJJF?) that went on to become JF, and the maverick USJA. JI was added later as a requirement of the US Olympic comittee to oversee Olympic judo in America.

I can understand why JF and JA don't offer associate memberships, but not sure why JI and JF got associated, but not JI and JA (since technically both JA and JF are secondary orgs under JI).


I'd like to see the three groups merge, but there are too many people at high levels who would need to give up some of their authority, I think, for that to happen.

Peter

MarkF
31st May 2001, 08:19
Now I'm sorry I didn't save those pages, but each organization, in their online membership forms, "required" one to choose an associate membership, i.e., if the USJF, one could choose the JI or JA. That IS what the form[s] said. It was a requirement for however long that lasted. Obviously, not too long, and it just happened to coincide with my inquiries, but no, I did not ask the orgs about it, I simply was doing a favor for an ex-student.

Also, each page with the online form had a hyperlink to each other.

BTW: I did tell said student that the teacher was with all three organizations even with the negative response from the USJI.

This is getting comical, and why some are looking to be without, or with newer organizations such as the USMAA, USMAF, or the USJJF.
****

There was very bad blood between the United States Black belt Federation (now the USJF) and the Armed Forces Judo Association (now the USJA). Phil Porter did not like the hold the USJF had on American Judo, and this was a thinly veiled "racial" issue, and why there was bad blood.

He then sued in federal court to have his organization authorized, chartered, and whatever the order said in full. The USBBF, then changed its name along with Porter's group.

The USJA then became authorized to enter any or all tournaments under the AAU, hold its own sanctioned events, any or all amateur tournments on a national scale. The last part of this deal was for the USJA to have its own Judoists entered in any or all tournaments on an international scale, obviously, as winning on a national level for international tournaments made that point somewhat mute (there is always the one though, who wants it spelled out).

If Porter is succesful this time, exactly what will be the role of the USMAA? The USMAF represents judo as well, so what will their role be? The USJJF is said to be pitching for inclusion into the Olympic games through the Jujitsu Internation Federation, so does then, the International Judo Federation become the world body for all these organizations? Does it matter?

The AJJA is another small organization with questionable status as well, but claims it too is represented by the JJIF.

No wonder the Kano Society was created, and now recognized by the Kodokan Judo Institute (or at least by M. Kano, a shodan and president of the Kodokan). As is obvious, recognition means very little, as more organizations in Europe, such as one karate organization now having a small but representative judo faction, mainly from those who believe they were not treated correctly by those that be.

Well, that is about what I know, obviously not in full, and I doubt it will become easier to divvy up in the future.
****

Since Dr. Dai Soke Irving Soto 10-dan has his own international sokeship hall of fame, perhaps that is the way to go. At least, no one has asked for his sokeship back, even Soke Muhammed Ali.:D

(No kidding! His name is on the list along with a crap load of other so honored soke!) Come to think of it, the USJF is looking better an...

Mark

William F. Kincaid
31st May 2001, 08:40
Mark are you sure it is an application to an organization or was it an application for a tourn.. My sensei used to talk alot when I was just but a white belt in Judo that at one time there were tournaments that required "joint memberships" in either USJA or Ji
etc. Like you i wish now I had paid more attention to what he was saying.

Anyway you look at it though they are still so littered with politics that it makes my brain hurt:D

Up to us Judoka and Budoka to try to put a stop to all this "ultimate" controlling and inter organization bickering.

dakotajudo
31st May 2001, 14:34
Originally posted by William F. Kincaid

...

Anyway you look at it though they are still so littered with politics that it makes my brain hurt

Up to us Judoka and Budoka to try to put a stop to all this "ultimate" controlling and inter organization bickering.

One thing about "politics"

I'm getting my rank through USJA primarily because my current sensei is USJA. I trust his judgement, and I want someone who can help identify my weaknesses. Doesn't matter to me what org he belongs to.

Part of the purpose of a national org is to foster personal relationships between practitioners, and make it easier for the practioners to find each other.

There are a lot of good people involved in the national orgs, so to avoid the national orgs because of the 'politics' of a few is a little like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Peter

Ben Reinhardt
31st May 2001, 17:12
Mark F wrote:"Now I'm sorry I didn't save those pages, but each organization, in their online membership forms, "required" one to choose an associate membership, i.e., if the USJF, one could choose the JI or JA. That IS what the form[s] said. It was a requirement for however long that lasted. Obviously, not too long, and it just happened to coincide with my inquiries, but no, I did not ask the orgs about it, I simply was doing a favor for an ex-student. "

Mark. Seriously, you are mistaken. I have checked this out with the Pres. of JI and several other members of the USJI BOD. The requirement you are claiming just did not exist. It was an option to join one or all three organizations. Once JF and JI got together under the same insurance carrier, the "joint" membership became possible. JA is still not in the boat with JF and JI on the insurance issue, thus thee is no "associate" or "joint" JA-JI or JA-JF membership.

Why am I bothering with this? Because I don't like to see misinformation spread. I think you are mistaken, not that you are intending anything malicious.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
31st May 2001, 17:22
Originally posted by dakotajudo
I agree with Ben on this. I think JF and JI have historically allowed (but not required) associate membership, but to my knowledge JA has never had that option."

Ben R: The JF/JI secondary membership (that's the official term used). Is pretty recent. In 1995-96, JI proposed that JF, JI, and JA all get together under the same insurance carrier/policy, to pave the way towards secondary memberships. I was at the meeting in Macon, Georgia when the issue came up (semi annual meeting Board meeting of USJI). JA refused to allow an audit of it's books etc. by the insurance company, so JA was left out of the deal.

Peter C. wrote: "I'm not sure of the history, but I think there was some bad blood between the established judo org (AJJF?) that went on to become JF, and the maverick USJA. JI was added later as a requirement of the US Olympic comittee to oversee Olympic judo in America. "

Ben R: MarkF does a pretty good job of summarizing this for you. Phil Porter basically wanted the JA to be the NGB, while the JF (USJBBF) wanted to be it. JI was created via the Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act of 1978 to be NGB, with JA and JF being "Group A" members.

I can understand why JF and JA don't offer associate memberships, but not sure why JI and JF got associated, but not JI and JA (since technically both JA and JF are secondary orgs under JI).

Ben R: I think I explained that above. The three orgs are moving towards associate or even one membership for all, with everybody being a JI member and chosing a "secondary" membership.


Peter C: I'd like to see the three groups merge, but there are too many people at high levels who would need to give up some of their authority, I think, for that to happen.

Ben R: It would be nice, but it's probably not realistic. I don't know anyone involved in the process who thinks it's realistic for a Borg style "you will be assimilated" solution. Having everyone be a member of JI, and one (or both, if you chose) of the other orgganizations will be a move forward in my opinion. JF and JA are supposed to be in charge of grass roots development of Judo, JI is to look after the Elite athletes and represent US Judo to the Olympic Committes and the IJF. The Presidents of JI, JA, and JF (Ron Tripp, Jim Bregman, and Noboro Saito, respectively) are actively working towards working together and some sort of better "unification".

Ben Reinhardt

Peter

Ben Reinhardt
31st May 2001, 17:30
MarkF wrote:"If Porter is succesful this time, exactly what will be the role of the USMAA? The USMAF represents judo as well, so what will their role be? The USJJF is said to be pitching for inclusion into the Olympic games through the Jujitsu Internation Federation, so does then, the International Judo Federation become the world body for all these organizations? Does it matter? "

Ben R: As of the last USJI BOD meeting (in April in Orlando), the USMAA had not formerly applied to USJI for membership as either a Group A, B, or C member. I know because I asked counsel for USJI and President Tripp. So, O'Sensei Porter seems to me to be trying to stir up trouble. He seems to claim rejection when he has not even TRIED to get the USMAA into the USJI !

The USMAA's role ? Nothing, I am willing to bet. I bet it won't even formally apply for membership, that Porter will try to drum his perpetual victimization at the hands of the JI et al. into increased memberships for USMAA, so it can "get strong enough" to challenge the evil JI empire. Same goes for USMAF. Neither group has ANY official standing with ANY real governing body for Judo. They are of course welcome to form their own orgs, have their own rank standards, Hall of Fames, Soke Circles, etc.

Regarding the various JJJ orgs: I really don't expect to see them in the Olympics anytime soon. They don't have large membeships or followings. Heck, Judo has been an Olympic sport since 1964, and look at how it struggles in the USA. The USOC is getting really strict with the various NGBs, Judo included. No medals, no money ! What does JJJ have to offer ? Not much.

Rant off !

Ben Reinhardt

dakotajudo
31st May 2001, 22:39
Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt


The JF/JI secondary membership (that's the official term used). Is pretty recent. In 1995-96, JI proposed that JF, JI, and JA all get together under the same insurance carrier/policy, to pave the way towards secondary memberships. I was at the meeting in Macon, Georgia when the issue came up (semi annual meeting Board meeting of USJI). JA refused to allow an audit of it's books etc. by the insurance company, so JA was left out of the deal.


Was this when JA was still run by Phil Porter?

BTW, thanks for the history. I was in JI very briefly until our sensei switched to JA, then I moved a couple years later (about 92), and didn't get much involved, although I do remember Phil Porter as the big shot. I didn't get involved in judo again until 98 (moved SD where there is almost no judo), and things had changed considerably.

I bet it won't even formally apply for membership, that Porter will try to drum his perpetual victimization at the hands of the JI et al. into increased memberships for USMAA, so it can "get strong enough" to challenge the evil JI empire. [\B]

Did this also happen in the early USJA history? In other words, has Porter done this before?

[B]The Presidents of JI, JA, and JF (Ron Tripp, Jim Bregman, and Noboro Saito, respectively) are actively working towards working together and some sort of better.

I got the impression from Judo-L that most of the effort was from Jim Bregman. Has anything official come from this?


Peter

MarkF
1st June 2001, 08:10
Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt
Mark. Seriously, you are mistaken. I have checked this out with the Pres. of JI and several other members of the USJI BOD. The requirement you are claiming just did not exist. It was an option to join one or all three organizations. Once JF and JI got together under the same insurance carrier, the "joint" membership became possible. JA is still not in the boat with JF and JI on the insurance issue, thus thee is no "associate" or "joint" JA-JI or JA-JF membership.



OK.

Robert Carver
1st June 2001, 13:15
Hello Ben:

Your remarks...


Same goes for USMAF. Neither group has ANY official standing with ANY real governing body for Judo. They are of course welcome to form their own orgs, have their own rank standards, Hall of Fames, Soke Circles, etc.

...are not accurate. The USMAF does not claim to be a "governing body'" body, but an umbrella organization. We do not claim to have any standing in either Judo , Karate or any other martial art. In fact, if someone comes to us for rank in Judo, Karate, TKD, or jujutsu, we refer them to the appropriate governing body (i.e. USJI, USJF, USJA, USAKF, USTKDU). This information is found on the USMAF's website. USMAF also does not have separate rank standards for each of these arts, a "Hall of Fame", or a Soke Board. While folks do approach the organization for recognition of their art, a rather cumbersome process is in place to ensure legitimacy. A check with lots of 0's behind the first number is not enough.

So please do not place us in the same category as Phil and his merry mob.... :)

Ben Reinhardt
1st June 2001, 14:28
Originally posted by dakotajudo


Was this when JA was still run by Phil Porter?

Ben R: No, it was during the period of time after Porter had left the JA. The JA was still reeling from all the stuff Porter caused, though.

Peter: BTW, thanks for the history. I was in JI very briefly until our sensei switched to JA, then I moved a couple years later (about 92), and didn't get much involved, although I do remember Phil Porter as the big shot. I didn't get involved in judo again until 98 (moved SD where there is almost no judo), and things had changed considerably.

Ben R: You're welcome.

I bet it won't even formally apply for membership, that Porter will try to drum his perpetual victimization at the hands of the JI et al. into increased memberships for USMAA, so it can "get strong enough" to challenge the evil JI empire. [\B]

Did this also happen in the early USJA history? In other words, has Porter done this before?

Ben R: Porter was in on the history of the JA from the beginning. He was originally in the USAFJA when it sued the old USJBBF (now JF).

[B]The Presidents of JI, JA, and JF (Ron Tripp, Jim Bregman, and Noboro Saito, respectively) are actively working towards working together and some sort of better.

I got the impression from Judo-L that most of the effort was from Jim Bregman. Has anything official come from this?

Ben R: It was basically up to the JA to get their house in order and approach the JI and JF about changes. The JA was really hurt by a lot of what Porter did and was allowed to do by the board. It's a shame, because they were definitely the most organized of the three national organizations. Mr. Bregman was very active on the Judo-L. He got into the ongoing discussions we were having about JI/JF/JA unification/cooperation. Steve Cunningham, the moderator of Judo-L, is also a JA Board Member, as are at least two others on the list. As to progress, Mr. Bregman and Mr. Tripp met at the last USJI meeting, and are in discussions with Mr. Saito of the JF as well. I have not heard anything specific from Ron Tripp (JI President). I am VERY optimistic they will work things out for the betterment of Judo in the USA.

Ben Reinhardt


Peter

Ben Reinhardt
1st June 2001, 14:34
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Hello Ben:

Your remarks...



...are not accurate. The USMAF does not claim to be a "governing body'" body, but an umbrella organization. We do not claim to have any standing in either Judo , Karate or any other martial art. In fact, if someone comes to us for rank in Judo, Karate, TKD, or jujutsu, we refer them to the appropriate governing body (i.e. USJI, USJF, USJA, USAKF, USTKDU).

Ben R: I think you will note that I did not say that USMAF or USMAA were governing bodies for Judo. What I said was that neither has any standing with the NGB for Judo, USA Judo. Mark F., who I quoted, sort of implied what you say I wrote, but I myself did not.



This information is found on the USMAF's website. USMAF also does not have separate rank standards for each of these arts, a "Hall of Fame", or a Soke Board. While folks do approach the organization for recognition of their art, a rather cumbersome process is in place to ensure legitimacy. A check with lots of 0's behind the first number is not enough.

Ben R: Sorry that what I wrote suggested that the USMAF is similar to the USMAA. After rereading it, I can see how you would think that. It wasn't my intent. I WAS lumping the USMAA and USMAF together in the sense that they do not have standing as above.

So please do not place us in the same category as Phil and his merry mob.... :)

OK, no problem. That wasn't really my intent. I'm glad to hear that the USMAF is not in the business of selling hall of fame memberships and rank.

Ben Reinhardt

Robert Carver
2nd June 2001, 02:19
Ben:

If I misunderstood your statement and it's context, my apologies. The USMAF is definately not in the business of selling rank, Hall of Fame or Sokeship nonsense. If any of that stuff ever starts, then I for one am gone!

Anyway, I am in the process of moving to Baton Rouge and shortly after we are settled, I will be developing a FAQ concerning USMAF. We want to make it absolutely clear to everyone involved that USMAF and USMAA are a the opposite ends of the integrity spectrum.

I heard some interesting news today concerning the USJA, and it is very sad. The USJJF President, Bruce Bethers was in OKC today and we had a brief chat over lunch. The USJA is in desperate financial straits and its existence is in serious doubt. Not only could they not meet the payment to renew their insurance policy, but we are now being approached by numerous USJA folks (from the jujutsu side) concerning membership in the USJA. Many of these are highly placed officers in the USJA and within their jujutsu committee. This seems to be an indicator that they are looking for a home outside the USJA.

Sadly, the Porter legacy will be the death of a fine organization and the perversion of another. Very sad...

MarkF
2nd June 2001, 10:55
Originally posted by William F. Kincaid
Mark are you sure it is an application to an organization or was it an application for a tourn.. My sensei used to talk alot when I was just but a white belt in Judo that at one time there were tournaments that required "joint memberships" in either USJA or Ji
etc. Like you i wish now I had paid more attention to what he was saying.

Anyway you look at it though they are still so littered with politics that it makes my brain hurt:D

Up to us Judoka and Budoka to try to put a stop to all this "ultimate" controlling and inter organization bickering.

That could have been the case, but they were online forms. Apparently, it never happened, though.:)




Ben R: I think you will note that I did not say that USMAF or USMAA were governing bodies for Judo. What I said was that neither has any standing with the NGB for Judo, USA Judo. Mark F., who I quoted, sort of implied what you say I wrote, but I myself did not.



I wasn't implying anything except asking questions of what the future may hold, and that was all. I never held that any group, in the context I used it, was anything but putting a complicated question on the table, the same thing I always do.

Phil Porter has done it once, and why I didn't leave anyone, or anything out. In fact, in a more conservative climate, if Phil cleans out his locker, he could very well make it steamy in the board rooms. That lawsuit makes more waves today than it did then. People still worry about future consequences, one man a certain Dr. Karl Koiwai, made that fairly clear.

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
5th June 2001, 15:14
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Ben:

If I misunderstood your statement and it's context, my apologies. The USMAF is definately not in the business of selling rank, Hall of Fame or Sokeship nonsense. If any of that stuff ever starts, then I for one am gone!

Anyway, I am in the process of moving to Baton Rouge and shortly after we are settled, I will be developing a FAQ concerning USMAF. We want to make it absolutely clear to everyone involved that USMAF and USMAA are a the opposite ends of the integrity spectrum.

I heard some interesting news today concerning the USJA, and it is very sad. The USJJF President, Bruce Bethers was in OKC today and we had a brief chat over lunch. The USJA is in desperate financial straits and its existence is in serious doubt. Not only could they not meet the payment to renew their insurance policy, but we are now being approached by numerous USJA folks (from the jujutsu side) concerning membership in the USJA. Many of these are highly placed officers in the USJA and within their jujutsu committee. This seems to be an indicator that they are looking for a home outside the USJA.

Sadly, the Porter legacy will be the death of a fine organization and the perversion of another. Very sad...

What is probably is happening is this: If USJA is going to be able to have the "secondary" membership with USJI, they will have to drop their other martial arts. That is what I have been told from reliable sources. USJI is for Judo, and Judo only, and it's insurance policy is for Judo only. So the Ju Jitsu people of USJA may be looking for another organization to recognize their rank and to be a part of out side of USJA.

As to the JA not making their insurance premiums, that happened a couple of years ago. I don't think it's a problem now. At least as of the last USJI Board meeting in April.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
5th June 2001, 15:22
Originally posted by MarkF


That could have been the case, but they were online forms. Apparently, it never happened, though.:)



I wasn't implying anything except asking questions of what the future may hold, and that was all. I never held that any group, in the context I used it, was anything but putting a complicated question on the table, the same thing I always do.

Phil Porter has done it once, and why I didn't leave anyone, or anything out. In fact, in a more conservative climate, if Phil cleans out his locker, he could very well make it steamy in the board rooms. That lawsuit makes more waves today than it did then. People still worry about future consequences, one man a certain Dr. Karl Koiwai, made that fairly clear.

Mark [/B]


Like I said before, Porter is in my opinion blowing smoke, as usual. USMAA had not formally applied to USJI for any sort of membership (A or C) appropriate to what he claims USMAA does in /for Judo. I know this for a fact because I asked Counsel for USJI, Tad Nalls, and President Ron Tripp at the last USJI meeting. So how Porter could claim rejection without even having applied is amazing. Like I said, it's a way to drum up membership in USMAA by playing the victim and "us against them" role.

Porter may clean out his locker, but I doubt he can stand the heat he would generate. He has as many old smelly gym clothes stashed away in his as anyone else does.

Don't hold your breath waiting on a lawsuit from USMAA to join USJI. They can apply like anyone else who desires to do so.

Ben Reinhardt

dakotajudo
5th June 2001, 16:43
Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt

<snip>

So how Porter could claim rejection without even having applied is amazing. Like I said, it's a way to drum up membership in USMAA by playing the victim and "us against them" role.

<snip>

Ben Reinhardt

I asked this question earlier, but don't think I phrased in properly.

Was the same strategy of "playing the victim" used to build support for the USJA when they broke from the JBBF? Did this result in long-term bad feelings between the two groups that effects how the groups interact today? Will this affect cooperation between USMAA and the judo orgs in the future?

I had a friend who got his shodan in USJA, then went to train with a USJF club in New York (early 90's). He wrote me that they(the club) didn't recognize his rank and made him train as an ikkyu. I realize that there was an agreement between the two organizations to recognize each other's ranks, but apparently some of the members did not agree.

Could this be related to the historical differences between the two orgs?

Peter

Ben Reinhardt
5th June 2001, 17:11
Sorry, guys, this was a double post. The connection kept timing out, and I tried to repost.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
5th June 2001, 17:21
Originally posted by dakotajudo


I asked this question earlier, but don't think I phrased in properly.

Was the same strategy of "playing the victim" used to build support for the USJA when they broke from the JBBF? Did this result in long-term bad feelings between the two groups that effects how the groups interact today? Will this affect cooperation between USMAA and the judo orgs in the future?

Ben R: My opinion is that yes, the same strategy was used. The people who formed USJA had legitimate reasons to be upset with the old USJBBF, without a doubt. It was dominated by the Japanese, who were at times slow to promote non-Japanese, and were of course VERY conservative in how they taught Judo. The people, including Phil Porter, felt that they were being discriminated against (I'll also note that the old USAFJF, the Armed Forces Yudanshakai of the old USJBBF, was the LARGEST yudanshakai...) for various reasons. And they no doubt were. So they were "victims" to some degree. However, in later years (that I know of ), the same tact was used to solidify support for the USJA, mainly in the guise of fund raising activities. I have personally experienced Mr. Porters harangues against the JF and JI, so I'm not just imagining this. It made me sick, and I refused to join USJA.

The USMAA is not really an issue. It has nothing to do with mainstream Judo in the USA or it's organizations (USJA, USJI, USJF). USMAA has nothing to do with USJA. Mr. Porter formed it after he left the USJA. In my opinion, it is nothing but a continuation of the direction he was taking USJA. There is definitely a lot of bad feeling based on fact towards Mr. Porter in the US Judo community. It's ironic, as he did do things to help Judo. Peopel recognize him for his accomplishments, but are really saddened by the direction he took at USJA. It really is sad, and very disappointing how things have ended up. So I don't think that you will see much enthusiasm in the mainstream Judo community to get involved with Mr. Porter, and the USMAA regarding Judo.


I had a friend who got his shodan in USJA, then went to train with a USJF club in New York (early 90's). He wrote me that they(the club) didn't recognize his rank and made him train as an ikkyu. I realize that there was an agreement between the two organizations to recognize each other's ranks, but apparently some of the members did not agree.

Ben R: This is sad. The rank recognition agreement between JA/JF/JI was not in place in the early 90's (I think, but am not sure). A lot of old time JF dojo still would give JA black belts a hard time because of all the old emnity between the organizations. I don't think we see much if any of that sort of discrimination anymore, as the three orgs have rank recognition agreements in place now.

Could this be related to the historical differences between the two orgs?

Ben R: Definitely. That was the reason for sure, as I have seen it happen myself.

Peter

Barry Southam
8th June 2001, 05:12
Friends,

I would like to say something concerning Phil Porter and his being "Voted out" as President of the U.S.J.A.,....
No one has included the Executive Director and the Board of Directors in the discussion of Phil Porter as President of the U.S.J.A.,... I along with Bob Brown have brought this issue to the current President of the USJA......If Phil Porter had been making serious mistakes, showing mismanagement, questionable use of funds or whatever for years as President of the USJA....

THe Executive director should of reported each questionable act concerning the President as they presented themselves to the BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR IMMEDIATE ACTION...They claim Porter had been doing questionable things for some time.....Where is the ACCOUNTABILITY of the Executive Dir. and Board members for not doing there job in OVERSEEING the PRESIDENT and taking immediate action to correct problems instead of letting them grow ????

If Porter is to be ridiculed for any wrong doing then the Executive Dir. and Board members during that time should also share the BLAME!!!!!
If the USJA had stock holders and they lost money due to the actions of the president for a long time and the Ex. Dir. and Board members left it happen without taking corrective action immediately....They all would be OUT....

I just wanted to share this in that why have a position of Executive Dir. and elected Board members...If they don't want to administer the duties of there job...


Take Care

Barry E. Southam