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Mark Gerardi
1st June 2001, 04:44
I have seen some really beautiful Japanese tattoos. In the movies these seem always to be associated with Yakuza membership. I was wondering if due to the clannish nature of the Samurai if there was any form of tattooing among these warriors? If so what sorts of imagery was used and what was the significance. Also is there any occurance in Japanese culture of "spiritual tattooing" or acknowledging spiritual growth or enlightenment with a tattoo?

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You
Mark Gerardi

Karl Friday
1st June 2001, 17:34
Samurai didn't organize in clans. "Clan" is a (very poor) translation used in samurai movies for "ryo" or "han," terms better translated as "fief" or "domain." These are the territories ruled by daimyo. Thus "the Takeda clan" referred to in the movies was the lands ruled by the Takeda family. I suppose the term "clan" originally got chosen by movie translators because it sounds more feudal, and rings better with the family name that identifies it. Also, the original scripts in the movies (and in the historical sources) often refer to the such-and-such family doing whatever ("the Takeda are attacking") and adding "clan" makes it easier for foreign audiences to understand that it's the whole political group, not just the family itself, being referred to.

As to tattoos: While modern-style tattoos have recently been growing in popularity among Japanese kids in their late teens or early 20s, in general tattooing has long been considered very low class in Japan--associated, as you noted, with the yakuza--and also with prostitutes.

Until just a few years ago--5 or 6 at the most--sporting a tattoo was pretty much a ticket to an automatic exclusion from polite society. Many public baths, saunas and such still display signs refusing entrance to people with tattoos--again, the yakuza connection. Even today, it's very unusual to find tattoos on college students or college graduates. I've never heard of samurai tattooing themselves, and given the association of the practice with low-lifes and riffraff, I'd be amazed to find that any ever did.

Mark Gerardi
2nd June 2001, 01:03
Dr Friday,

Thank You for your quick and informative response.
I find this forum is a handy resource as I begin to educate myself about another culture.

Respectfully,

Mark Gerardi

dirtyvicar
14th June 2001, 18:24
On my last trip to Japan, we visited a 'spa', with hot springs, etc. There were signs in the locker room that gave us the idea if you had a tattoo, you weren't welcome there. Of course, about half of the people in our group had one. The little cartoon guy on the sign had a bunch of tattoos, so we were going to plead that we thought it only applied to those folks with a lot of them... Nobody said anything to us (sometimes the language barrier works in your favor) though.

We got enough odd looks just because we were gaijin, I'm sure the assorted tattoos just added to their low opinion of Americans ! :(

Earl Hartman
14th June 2001, 19:23
Gaijin are outsiders in Japan anyway, so the rules about tattoos in Japan really don't apply in the way that they would apply to a Japanese (although you are probably right that some people think the bearers of tattoos are low class, regardless of where they are from).

In Japan, traditional Japanese tattoos are worn almost exclusively by yakuza, members of organized crime syndicates, and the tattoos identify their wearers as such. So, the assumption, almost always quite justified, is that any Japanese who wears a tattoo is a thug. Reputable business establishments do not want to cater to that sort of clientele, of course. In any case, the yakuza are all Japanese, so a foreigner with a tattoo would obviously not be a member of such a gang.

However, the yakuza tattoos are certain types of tattoos, usually extremely elaborate, often covering the majority of the torso and the upper arms, consisting of traditional Japanese designs. Yuppie tattoos like a heart, a flower, or a bunny rabbit on some discreet part of the anatomy probably don't qualify. However, I think the stigma against tattoos in general is quite deeply rooted. I would imagine that if a foreigner showed up with full body tattoos, especially of traditional Japanese design, that there might be problems.

Harold James
14th June 2001, 23:54
This turned out to be a rant and so I'll remove it.

Respectfully.

Earl Hartman
15th June 2001, 00:04
Who doesn't make judgements based on their own cultural norms? The original question had to do with tattooing in Japan, and the plain fact of the matter is that most people (I did not say ALL) in Japan who have tattoos of the type referred to in the original question are either gangsters, or, as Dr. Friday said, people who belong to certain classes of society.

This may be distasteful to some, but it is a fact. The Ainu are a special case, and their practices do not reflect those of normative Japanese society, any more than the traditions of Native Americans are representative of US Anglo culture.

Harold James
15th June 2001, 02:37
Mr. Hartman:

I did not mean that in any way to be a personal attack. So I removed the post.

I did say in my post that WE ALL DO THIS, we see the world through our own cultural perception! But that isn't a good reason to judge people in my opinion. If we can't see beyond our cultural values and appreciate diversity in all forms (even those that are distateful... art is a matter of taste after all) we might as well just sit at home and never leave.

It was a rant on my part. Blowing off steam...

Since you have lived here, you know that discrimination is a real problem, and is even institutionalized by the government. Just ask anyone who is culturally Japanese but racially Korean.

I enjoying living here very much and have close ties to the culture and the people especially those who are my family.

But it gets to me that when my wife and I looked for an apartment three years ago (for example), and they put right on the paper "no foreigners" I got upset. After a while it builds on me. Thus my rant, I truely believe that as a blanket statement, many Japanese people can not see beyond the surface of an individual when making a decision about the worth of that person or about what groups he is or is not a member of. So tattooing does fit into my original post. (At least I hoped it did.)

I can see though, that if you met an Ainu person with tattoos you would not instantly judge them based on thier decision to have tattoos because you know they DO NOT REPRESENT NORMITIVE Japanese culture. Why is it when I want to rent an apartment here I can not rent the one I want because I am being judged by a guy who does think that I REPRESENT NORMITIVE foreign culture. It is not an excuse that I, or anyone, should have to suffer from sterotyping. One guy was ready to rent the apartment to us after having only met my wife (who at that time used her maiden name) but changed his mind in a split second when he was told I was not Japanese.

Yes we all do this, and I never said that you said "ALL", but just wanted to point some exceptions to what is the vast majority.

Again, I never meant my post as an attack on your post, I appoligize if you took it that way. My poor sense of prose helps me not and so out of respect I removed my post.

I know that discrimination has been a subject here in the Japan Culture forum before. I didn't need to try and dig up any old bones about it that had been burried.

I offer my appoligies Mr. Hartman.

PRehse
15th June 2001, 03:35
Harold - the negative discrimination sucks but just think of all the positive discrimination.

I never had problems getting an apartment, including my present three month stay where they waived the key money. Of course each and every time it was either my work connections or in this case my association with Shihan.

Tatoos - well I'm seriously considering getting one traditional one on my shoulder. I think they are beautiful.

I went to the local o-furo in Shirahama, Wakayama and there was a Yak in full body tatoo. Nobody was sitting near him. I did, he grunted. After about 30 minutes he got up - I looked over his tatoos - and grunted back.

Karl Kuhn
15th June 2001, 18:39
The last time I was in Japan, about a year and a half ago, I was refused entrance to two sentos and actually asked to leave the giant mega-sport plex my friend belonged to. My tattoo is not large, on my upper arm and of religious signifigence to me. While I was a bit amazed (yeah, I look every bit the japanese crime lord, not) and irritated by the whole thing, I did get a healthy wiff of "me against the squares" that I haven't had since I was a teenage punkrocker.

I did notice a much increased presence of tattoo magazines and people wearing them on the street than on a prior trip. I was pretty surprised as it was not just the rockabilly kids but plenty of young urban office dwellers. The lid really seemed to be off, at least in the parts of Osaka I was hanging out in. I'm sure if I went back down to Imabari it would not be the same.

Also, I saw a fair amount of traditional looking work (think Hiroshii II) on drum and bass ravers and garage rock greasers. They were not "made" men.

Cheers,

Karl Kuhn

Harold James
17th June 2001, 23:41
Originally posted by PRehse


"...the negative discrimination sucks but just think of all the positive discrimination."



I have to say that this is pretty lame. Discrimination is always bad. If you think you are lucky because you came out on top, and got some "positive discrimination", remember that someone had to be on losing side.

Discrimination is discrimination! There isn't anything positive about it, any time, any place, anywhere. I don't understand your thinking on this, because if you are proud or feel lucky about it, you aren't any better than the people who do it in a "negative" way!

PRehse
18th June 2001, 02:41
Harold;

Discrimination is everywhere, in every culture, anywhere there are people. We are group animals, however in my opinion it is a measure of society on how we treat those different from us.

Japan is much more group orrientated than North America and Europe but if you don't think discrimination occurs in the latter two places you are on the inside of the group looking in.

I know there is discrimination in Japan, not the worst I've encountered, but I choose to live with it (I could choose not to come here) just as I choose not to concentrate on the negative I have encountered.

Living in Japan has taught me to be sensitive to attitudes in my own country where it is not so much, not so blatent, but its there.

What I meant by the statement "...the negative discrimination sucks but just think of all the positive discrimination." was just that don't concentrate exclusively on the negative.

Harold James
18th June 2001, 03:27
PRehse

Well, I never said it doesn't happen in the West did I! Discrimination isn't a cultural problem (as there isn't a culture without it- but that is never an excuse to allow it to happen when you have the ability to act against it!!!!!) but it is a human problem. Sorry if you think I am focussing on the negative side of discrimination. The idea that there can be a positive discrimination is impossable for me to understand. If there is such a thing for you, I guess you have the right to be that way. Should I think of you as person who discrimates positively?

We all have to live with it. A fact of life, but I refuse to remain silent on it because that is the same as supporting it I think. If that means getting kicked out of a sento becuase you have tattoos (beautiful or not- keeping with the thread here), well that is a lot of extra bagage for the management of the sento to carry around with them and they are all the poorer for it. Same for the guy who wouldn't rent to any foreigners. He had the chance to judge me as an individual and chose not to, instead he decided to rent to Japanese only. He wouldn't even meet me, once he found out the guy married to my wife wasn't Japanese. I guess the person who got the apartment instead of me must have been happy at thier luck in experiencing positive deiscrimination while getting a good apartment.

They probably didn't even know I existed. If they did know, and they still took the apartment, well I hope they sleep peacefully at night knowing that I and other foriegners couldn't live where we wanted to just because we aren't Japanese.

Personally, I wouldn't rent an apartment from a guy who rented only to foriegners in Japan.

Just what is your idea of "positive" discrimination anyway?

Don Cunningham
18th June 2001, 03:49
I think the discrimination issue is not only a Japan problem. I have encountered discrimination many times here in the good ole U.S. of A. First because I was from a poor family and came from "the wrong side of the tracks." The worst incident occurred just after I returned from Vietnam. (No, I didn't see any hippies spitting at me or calling me "Baby Killer!") It was on my flight from California to my home state of Texas. I was dressed in my best uniform with all my new medals. I was still recovering from wounds received, so I had trouble walking and still had some nasty looking scars on my face. The woman sitting in the seat next to me asked the flight attendant to move her because she didn't want to sit next to a soldier.

Someone else wrote it first, but I wish I had. "I always felt like an outsider, but at least in Japan, I didn't have to make any excuses for it." I think that is one of the main reasons I moved there after my return as well.

As for tattoos, these have always been associated with the lower classes. Criminals were tattooed, either with rings around the arms or on their face, but many commoners, such as palaquin bearers and firemen, also had tattoos to distinguish them. It's interesting, but the pornographic woodblock prints that were the most popular showed women having relations with tattooed men. I guess it was the idea of women seeking pleasure with someone beneath their station that appealed to those who liked that kind of stuff.

A samurai, farmer, or merchant would not have tattoos or wish to associate with those who did during the feudal era. The same values seem to have come down to modern times. Don't try to view another culture by juxtaposing your own culture's values. It just doesn't relate.

Jeff Hamacher
18th June 2001, 03:56
i'm going to sidestep for the most part this discrimination thread that's popped up, except to say that i've taken my fair share of discrimination on the proverbial chin in japan, and i don't frequently benefit from what might be called "positive discrimination" (read: making allowances or exceptions for non-japanese because they can't be expected to know or understand) these days. bright eyed newbies seem to garner all kinds of positive attention, but my short 5 years here have taken away the "newby shine." i will not cast blame upon the japanese any sooner than i might any nation or society, but this just happens to be the society in which i'm living. anyhooo...

i wanted to confirm something that i didn't find in your post, Dr. Friday, regarding what i understand to be the first use of tattooing in japan: government marking of convicted criminals. i read that it is this association to criminality that created the taboo for japanese. it was only later that criminals began to embrace the tattoo as a symbol of pride and thus gained popularity amongst initiates of the criminal underworld. would you be so kind as to shed some light on the issue?

thanks in advance, jeff hamacher

PS Don kinda beat me to the punch with his post. ah, well.

PRehse
18th June 2001, 04:14
Positive Discrimination? Well I am treated very well while in Japan. The apartment I get is usually far better than my Japanese contempories get not to mention my access to top level scientists. Maybe I am viewed as a guest but anyway you look at it - the fact that I am from abroad works in my favour.

Sure I would rather be where there was no discrimination but where would that be. I also know that getting all upset with it here is not going to have that much effect nor do I as a guest, feel like being in my hosts face so to speak.

I don't discriminate (or at least hope I don't) and maybe through example I can change a few. That's good enough for me.

Earl Hartman
18th June 2001, 19:43
Harold:

No offesne taken, so no apology necessary.

Yeah, it kind of sucks to have the door slammed in your face when you're trying to rent an apartment doesn't it?