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charlesl
1st June 2001, 09:43
Hiya!

One of the people I train with explained the concepts of sen, sen no sen, and sen sen no sen. I think I understood at the time, but my memory is bad. We were discussing the theory that the person who moves first is the one who loses, and how in several of the smr kata start or seem to start with an atack from shidachi(? the jo-guy), and how this seemed to conflict with that theory. We discussed and worked out the some of the concepts behind this, and then worked out some of the concepts regarding attacking, vs. responding to an attack, vs. committing a "pre-emptive strike", and a few others, and then came the tie in to this whole "sen" thing.

Was wondering if some knowledgable person could explain this to me in print so that I might be able to look it up later.

Mahalo,

-Charles Lockhart

Jeff Hamacher
7th June 2001, 11:27
charles: i've been working my way slowly through Musashi's *Book of Five Rings* (*Go Rin no Sho*) and fairly recently hit a couple of passages where he discusses "sen". my impression is that Musashi's "sen" is an expression of "taking the initiative", perhaps similar to "seeing and exploiting an opening in your opponent". i just can't remember exactly what he wrote, partly because it's japanese, so i'll have to check at get back to you. will post when i can dredge up the details ... at least as i understand them. :-)

cheers, jeff hamacher

Chuck Clark
7th June 2001, 23:22
I respectfully submit that the "knowledgeable person" you're looking for should be your teacher.

Good practice.

charlesl2
8th June 2001, 00:29
Chuck Clark wrote: "I respectfully submit that the "knowledgeable person" you're looking for should be your teacher. "

I agree, and one of these days I'll be training and remember at the same time and ask him to go over it again. I'm sure someday that will happen.

Until then, is there some taboo against discussing the subject?

Also wondering, is there a charter for this forum? I've looked around, but never seen one, but I'm frequently obtuse. I have no idea what is and isn't appropriate to post about. The most common reply I've seen to any kind of technical question ends up being "when you're ready, your teacher will tell you, and if your teacher hasn't told you, you're not ready", which kind of throws a stopper in the thread.

So what kinds of things could we discuss? I'm interested in learning more about koryu budo/bujutsu, particularly Shindo Muso Ryu, but I don't know what to ask. I can find the same generic historical background posted on several webpages. I'd like to discuss something beyond that.

Just some thoughts and opinions,

-Charles Lockhart

Diane Skoss
8th June 2001, 00:41
Hi Charles,

I fear that your moderator is more than a little to blame. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to koryu, and I'm firmly convinced that the Internet, while it can serve a purpose, has a culture that is in direct opposition to most of the koryu (and I'm going to write about this in detail fairly soon). Koryu, and the concepts it teaches, require direct transmission. The Internet, while perhaps direct, is not part of the transmission. I've not been able to reconcile this personally--I use the Internet to provide information about the koryu. And yet, there's a limit. My answer to any specific technical or theory question can only be, "Go train. Watch your teacher. Ask your seniors."

You will note that the jo forum is at least more civilized than most of the others, and that what information is provided is usually of pretty high quality. And maybe we should put our heads together and come up with a charter of some sorts.

open to suggestions (though won't be able to respond to them until Monday, since I'll be out of town).

As always,

Diane

Jeff Hamacher
8th June 2001, 02:13
Diane,

as a new member to the forum i seem to have been caught unawares. if you feel that technical discussions should be taking place in the dojo and not on the internet then i'm happy to abide by that principle. my own experience tells me that most if not all concrete learning about martial arts (i could include music and tea ceremony as well) has to come from direct study with a qualified teacher, a opinion that appears to agree with yours.

on the other hand, do you feel it's inappropriate to discuss the *literature* related to martial arts? i'm still not sure if it answers Charles' original question, but i hoped that my reference to "Five Rings" might shed some light on the topic. in fact, a little bit of dictionary research last night turned up some valuable information, i think. with your approval, Diane, i'll post my findings here. if you prefer that i avoid posting it, perhaps i might send it to you privately, Charles?

all in all, i see little reason why we shouldn't use this forum to exchange information related to the more abstract or esoteric aspects of martial arts. as Charles points out, if the response to every question becomes "ask your teacher" then i feel the value of this forum cannot help being reduced somehow. i invite your comments and i'm looking forward to learning more from everyone here.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Diane Skoss
8th June 2001, 02:53
Dear Jeff,

Please do share what you've come up with. There really aren't any specific rules here, just a tendency for those who have been around to ration their "wisdom," and suggest that inquirers get what they need from their teachers. Discussing what has been written on a topic is a great idea, and I'm sure everyone will benefit. Also, please please please do not modify what you post based on what you think I might think. I'm just here to keep things from getting out of hand. When I've got time and know (and I mean really know) an answer, I'll add my two yen. Otherwise, this forum is what folks who post make of it. There are folks who have a great deal of experience in SMR lurking about--respect their opinions--they know whereof they speak.

All that being said, I urge everyone not to get too caught up in this newfangled medium--it's great for making new connections and inspiring new thinking. It isn't a substitute for a student-teacher relationship--I think most of us agree on that one!

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

hyaku
8th June 2001, 05:22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
my impression is that Musashi's "sen" is an expression of "taking the initiative", perhaps similar to "seeing and exploiting an opening in your opponent".

................

Hello Mr Hamacher. I for one am pleased to read your comments and welcome a chance to contribute to the forum. From my studies of Musashi's basic perfected technique he took full advantage of the fact that the opponent had started to committ himself towards an aggresive action. This he saw as the ultimate opening.

So if there is no aggresion shown on the part of the aggresor there is no confrontation.

The practice of Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is totaly committed to this one concept.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

Jeff Hamacher
8th June 2001, 06:17
thanks for your response, Diane; i think we're both on the same page, so to speak. as a matter of fact, your original comment (as well as Chuck's) regarding discussions in the forum gave me food for thought. i would normally feel inclined to get into tech talk, but perhaps i'll abstain for a while and just concentrate on what my teacher offers me. and my teacher himself said to me in no uncertain terms, "The jo that you practise begins and ends with the jo that I teach you. Godo-keiko excepted, you will learn jo from no one else as long as you remain my student."

now, about Musashi's "sen". having reread the relevant passage, Musashi describes 3 types of "sen": "ken no sen" (where one initiates an attack first), "tai no sen" (where one's opponent initiates an attack first), and "tai-tai no sen" (where both opponent and oneself initiate an attack at the same time). Musashi states that there are no other possibilities. my copy of Go Rin no Sho is very thoroughly annotated (in fact rendered in modern japanese) by Kamata Shigeo, a doctoral professor of Buddhism and a high-ranked aikidoka. Kamata's translation gives Musashi's "sen" as the modern japanese word "sente", which i found in my dictionary defined with the following references:

1) "sen wo toru" - roughly, "to take the lead"
2) "kisen wo sei suru" - roughly, "to suppress the awakening of action"
3) "yasaki" - literally, "the tip of the arrow"

what all of these terms point to is the notion that the success of one's own technique depends upon one's ability to perceive, suppress, and counter an opponent's attack at the very moment that it begins. it is not actually being the first to attack; just as Hyaku points out, it is being the first to sense with certainty the nature of an opponent's intent and then employing one's own technique in such a way that it accords precisely with the opponent's action. Musashi insists that the 3 "sen" cannot be explained precisely in words. furthermore, it matters not which of the 3 "sen" occur, it matters only that one understands and exploits "sen" and that one must experience "sen" directly through constant training. my kendoka wife also adds that constant training is essential for one to be certain and confident of one's techniques; without rock-solid technique it is impossible to move in accordance with an opponent's actions.

in a nutshell, that's my understanding of Musashi's "sen". hope it helps, Charles, and of course i'm looking forward to hearing back from any and all.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Earl Hartman
13th June 2001, 01:08
Jeff (and anyone else who knows):

Where can I get a copy of Gorin no Sho in modern Japanese? And which is the best version (I assume that there is more than one)? It would be nice to have the classical and modern Japanese side-by-side, if such a version exists. Ordering/price information would be appreciated.

Jeff Hamacher
13th June 2001, 01:36
Originally posted by Earl Hartman

Where can I get a copy of Gorin no Sho in modern Japanese? And which is the best version (I assume that there is more than one)? It would be nice to have the classical and modern Japanese side-by-side, if such a version exists. Ordering/price information would be appreciated.
funny you should ask ... you describe in precise detail the copy which i have. info as follows:

Go Rin no Sho, ann. and trans. by Kamata Shigeo
Kodansha Gakujutsu Bunko (literary paperback series) #735
ISBN4-06-158735-8
860 yen (maybe 7 USD?)

the translator is quite a remarkable fellow: professor emeritus of Tokyo University, doctorate in Buddhist studies, Aikido 6-dan ... what more could you ask for. happy reading, Earl! you could also look at the version published by Iwanami, but it is mostly the original text with fairly generous footnotes. unless you want a *really* big classical japanese challenge i'd stick with the Kodansha copy. i just picked it up at a bookstore here in japan, but it shouldn't be impossible to find it or mail order it elsewhere in the world. hope this helps.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Earl Hartman
13th June 2001, 01:56
Thanks. I will try to pick it up the next time I'm in Japan. Will this book be available in any big bookstore like Kinokuniya?

Jeff Hamacher
13th June 2001, 09:30
Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Will this book be available in any big bookstore like Kinokuniya?
i assume it will be, 'specially since i got my copy at the Heiando in the bustling metropolis (not!) of Nagano City. bear in mind, though, that these paperbacks may go in and out of print. why not check for a Kodansha website? i seem to recall them having an english-language site, although i assume you won't have much difficulty reading a japanese-language site if your computer has the right software.

cheers, jeff hamacher