PDA

View Full Version : kijutsu



rsamurai
5th June 2001, 00:53
hello to all, i am new to this forum. i study juko ryu jujutsu. part of the training we undergo is the development of ki. we take full contact strikes to the floating ribs, groin and throat. i was wondering if any one else on this forum practices kijutsu or even believes in kijutsu. my judo club doesn't even believe that ki is real, yet they kiai when practicing ukemi. i am interested in anyones opinions regarding ki.and if they do, when they meditate is it to enhance their ki?

richard porro, jr

matthew kelly
5th June 2001, 02:55
sometimes i think kiai is a totally unconscious thing: when someone does it, half the time they don't realize it (unless it's something they've worked on, like some of the more dedicated karateka i've seen before). whether they do it because it's the spirit of attacking that makes them shout out, or because they want to shock thier opponent, i think it's something we do naturally that can be developed further.

i think once before i talked about ki on the bujinkan board and made sure i stated that everything i said was totally opinion and not based on having read this stuff anywhere - so just bear in mind, this is what works for me and what i've found to be right for me.

i think all forms of "ki", "chi" or "energy" that we harness come from within. no one can really tell us how to use it... either we harness it or we don't, and it's totally up to us. i think someone can help us along a little (god knows, i've had people tell me things about using my voice that changed the way i look at a LOT of things, not just martial arts), but for the most part we have to develop it all on our own.

as far as meditating goes i only do it to empty myself. sometimes after a really tough week i come home after work and do zazen for about 30 minutes, take a breather to do some kamae and tai sabaki with my bokken, then meditate for another 20 minutes or so. it makes me feel... cleaner. i don't know if anyone else does this or not... maybe i'm alone in my little strange practise. :laugh:

at any rate, when i kiai i do it unconsciously. every once in a while i'll try to focus all that power into my hara as i begin to strike or cut and push it all into my voice... with semi-interesting results. "the voice is a thing of life" - miyamoto musashi.

so... that's my five cents. :)

rsamurai
5th June 2001, 14:00
If a person doesn't believe in what their doing, whats the sense in the practice?

W.Kent Bergstrom [/B][/QUOTE]

that is what i asked my judo sensei. his answer was," your supposed to kiai when you fall." now i do kiai. but it is done correctly. they scream from the throat or say the word kiai. when i do it it seems to shake the mat. everyone notices mine.

DJM
5th June 2001, 23:20
Richard,
Just a thought, but I'd imagine that the Judoka kiaiing while taking ukemi could be a very good way of making sure you're breathing out when you hit the mat :D
Prosaic perhaps, but it must help - I know I forget to breathe out while taking ukemi sometimes - but never twice in a row ;)
Peace,
David

IchiRiKen1
6th June 2001, 00:57
Everyone here either knows or is aware that training in the "good old days" was not always so good. Often, explanations for even the most basic movements or techniques were not given. It was simply a case of "do what I say," without any cause given. This evolved into a rather militant atmosphere in the training hall, and contributed significantly to the decline of knowledge regarding some of the more esoteric information contained in a given style...

That having been said, I think I would concur, at least in part, with David's opinion regarding the use of kiai to reinforce the behavior of exhalation on impact. A good thing to help you remember, neh?

As far as the ki thing goes, however, Mr. Bergstrom's comment is right on the money. The formula is, very simply, "yi, qi, quan," or "intent, energy, fist." This implies that first you must have the intention and the focused purpose to do a thing, after which your qi/ki/chi will execute said thing, with your body following up behind it. Maybe this is true, maybe not. But it goes a long way toward explaining the effects (or lack thereof) of meditation on a person's technique.

When you do meditative exercises (kiko or qigong or chi kung), you have to have some purpose, some intent. Otherwise you are simply sitting quietly thinking pretty thoughts, and that is fine. But qigong doesn't work by itself; you have to tell the qi what to do. It is the same as just holding a weight in your hand. If you don't tell your arm to lift it in a certain way, you won't develop just by having the weight in your hand. There is a huge difference between actual qigong and meditation, though they may at times seem similar...

In response to Mr. Kelly's Bujinkan related comment, I had a buddy that was a Bujinkan shodan and he tried to convince me that in his training there was a lot of "unconscious" stuff, that they tried to work simply from a "there is no such thing as technique" standpoint. I understand what his intent was, but without a structured base from which to proceed, it is hard to develop anything - a sloppy, untrained kick from a senior yudansha is still a sloppy, untrained kick no matter how "sponteneous" it may be. That thinking is absurd. :nono: There must be a technique taught, a method of delivering a kick so it actually does damage instead of just flopping in the air. I know that such training takes place with the Boojers, as I have watched classes here in Japan and seen them practice such techniques (though admittedly more in the format of one step fighting than just lining up and kicking away the repetitions). Likewise in qigong, there are certain principles that must be applied in order for it to actually be qigong. The most important one being intention. If you have the right intention, even typing this post can be a form of qigong (though what I would do with the ability to type a person's skull in half with qi filled finger strikes to particular locations corresponding to letters on a keyboard is beyond me...:laugh: ).

And finally, I was always taught that a kiai is not done with the voice - that is called yelling or screaming - but rather is a throaty exhalation done with a full breath in order to hyperoxygenate the blood and reinforce the "spirit" during the execution of a technique...

But I could be wrong. My wife says I am most of the time, and who am I to argue with her? :rolleyes:

Just my humle 2 yen. Feel free to correct me if I am in error - all things are learning and training opportunities, and according to Confucius, there is a teacher to be found in one out of every three people...

rsamurai
6th June 2001, 02:24
thank you all for your posts. as a student of juko ryu jujutsu, ki jutsu is an intergral part. i have been to several ki clinics and have taken strikes to my body that amase myself. when i am in my jujutsu class my focus seems to be higher, my techniques crisper and i never had any serious injurys. since my dojo moved to the other side of town and my work schedule bogging me down, i decided to take up judo. i didn't realize judo was only a sport. my judo instructor doesn't really belive in ki. but like i said they kiai when doing ukemi. but in my judo dojo my focus dosn't seem to be as intense. my ki seems to drift in and out, and i suffered 2 serious knee injury's. the workouts in judo are lame compared to the ones in jujutsu. i figured that if i meditated more often i could raise my levels of ki back up. i found an article on meditian techniques of dr. a. yiannakis at a budenkan web site. have any of you heard of him and if so what do you know about his techniques. if any of you have any special meditative metod for me it would be greatly appreciated.

matthew kelly
6th June 2001, 19:30
ahhh, let me clarify...

<i>In response to Mr. Kelly's Bujinkan related comment, I had a buddy that was a Bujinkan shodan and he tried to convince me that in his training there was a lot of "unconscious" stuff, that they tried to work simply from a "there is no such thing as technique" standpoint.</i>

the mention of the bujinkan was simply 'cause i had been involved in a thread on the bujinkan board where ki was being discussed - i'm not saying i represent the bujinkan in this aspect, really... although i've been to class and...

<i>know that such training takes place with the Boojers, as I have watched classes here in Japan and seen them practice such techniques (though admittedly more in the format of one step fighting than just lining up and kicking away the repetitions).</i>

i've found this to be true, which is one of the reasons i really like the bujinkan. the emphasis seems to be more in finding your own technique, instead of doing it <i>this</i> way for sure or <i>that</i> way for sure in any given situation.

<i>...If you have the right intention, even typing this post can be a form of qigong (though what I would do with the ability to type a person's skull in half with qi filled finger strikes to particular locations corresponding to letters on a keyboard is beyond me... ).</i>

LOL

good point, too - without intention the whole thing loses any meaning it might've had to begin with, and this is a point i forgot to mention i had thought about before as well. like i said, we find these things naturally, but i think it also helps to have someone guide us along a little bit so we can learn how to properly harness what we've done. that's why the practise of it is important. thanks for bringing up that hidden angle in what i was trying (and ultimately failed) to make note of. i knew i'd overlooked something. :)

oh, and the thread starter said something up there about actually saying the word "kiai" when they fell doing ukemi...? isn't that a little... strange?